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Vorgen posted:I think its completely fair to say that anyone who creates life gets absolute control over it without higher moral accountability. And children aren't "creating life" in the same way that PB has created the candy people. The candy people are creations in a much more artistic, sweat-of-your-brow, scientific sense, in a way that nobody has ever done in the real world. The closest analogue though would be an artistic creation by someone. Nobody would argue that artists, authors, sculptors, etc. all have absolute control over their creations. Their creations are their property, even more so than random things that they simply bought. That's still kind of hosed up, because I think most people would say that sapient beings as property is never acceptable. PB is brilliant, but she is not divine.
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Nov 26, 2013 08:54
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Creatures from another time. 996 years ago, to be exact...  Should have brought Marcy on this trip, but I guess PB is slightly wary after getting her face sucked in the sand kingdom. Also, I need a gif of Peebs spannering Finn. Just because.
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Nov 26, 2013 08:54
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Vorgen posted:I think its completely fair to say that anyone who creates life gets absolute control over it without higher moral accountability. And children aren't "creating life" in the same way that PB has created the candy people. The candy people are creations in a much more artistic, sweat-of-your-brow, scientific sense, in a way that nobody has ever done in the real world. The closest analogue though would be an artistic creation by someone. Nobody would argue that artists, authors, sculptors, etc. all have absolute control over their creations. Their creations are their property, even more so than random things that they simply bought. I have to disagree with you here. PB's actions this episode felt especially callous, and while she may be their creator, the Candy People are still sentient beings, not pawns to be discarded. Her attitude towards her subjects is going to lead to problems down the road: it's already caused Cinnamon Bun to leave, and I suspect Finn and Jake may experience a similar crisis of faith soon enough. I'm just wondering what this will lead to: a candy revolution, perhaps? It'd be interesting to see PB's kingdom experience problems parallel to the Lemongrabs'.
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Nov 26, 2013 09:00
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As cold and callous as she came across this episode, consider that in an earlier episode it was shown that her love for Marceline was stronger than Marceline's love for Hambo. She is not heartless, I think it may be more accurate to say that she's extremely empathetic, but that her pragmatism is greater still. Or perhaps that her extreme pragmatism is motivated by her desire to save her people. She's complex, in any case.
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Nov 26, 2013 09:10
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Nah, Finn is the complex one.
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Nov 26, 2013 09:12
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Okay, opening title card. Against the backdrop of goo monsters, you see James' hand holding up a coin. On the coin is the likeness of PB, with the words "Science is _____" What is the last word. edit: okay, later in the episode you see James' coin more clearly. It says "Science is A-OK" I have a feeling that this is important to interpreting this episode somehow... Steve Yun fucked around with this message at 09:25 on Nov 26, 2013 |
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Nov 26, 2013 09:17
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Steve Yun posted:As cold and callous as she came across this episode, consider that in an earlier episode it was shown that her love for Marceline was stronger than Marceline's love for Hambo. Oh, of course. She's shown a lot of empathy throughout the series, but it does feel like she might be getting a bit too cold. Also, I found her choices a little strange in this episode. If she knew that there was only one way out, why ask Finn about his opinion? Why waste time sabotaging the radio and firing off the flare gun? It felt like she was trying to force Finn to reach her decision by continually eliminating options, like some sort of Kobayashi Maru-like test that Finn could only fail. But if that was her intention, does that really justify sacrificing the life of a candy person, even if she could clone him? And if it wasn't a test, it feels strange for her to hesitate for so long, as she's usually so proactive. Like you said, complex. I'm not sure what to make of this episode, but whatever the case, I just can't agree with any facet of PB's decision.
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Nov 26, 2013 09:19
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Steve Yun posted:Okay, opening title card. Against the backdrop of goo monsters, you see James' hand holding up a coin. On the coin is the likeness of PB, with the words "Science is _____" That episode was dark as balls. It feels weird saying it, but a war arc doesn't seem so far fetched anymore. Jesus Christ, this loving show. PB's got a hard lesson comin'. A-OK? If it's a riddle, then my interpretation is a-ok -> agood -> amoral. Probably stupidly simplistic though! VanSandman fucked around with this message at 09:46 on Nov 26, 2013 |
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Nov 26, 2013 09:43
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TheBystander posted:Kobayashi Maru-like test that Finn could only fail. Comparison to Wrath of Khan is interesting. James came across as being useless but in the end he saved the entire party. Was it because he was strong? No. Was it because he was clever or intelligent? No. It was because he cared enough about everyone else in the group enough to sacrifice his life for them. James T Kirk got by his whole life by being clever, by outsmarting everyone, cheating death and beating the poo poo out of enemies with his fists. But when faced with the no-win scenario Spock was the one who saved the crew, by sacrificing his life. The thought of winning by dying didn't occur to Kirk. In both cases, there is a sort of victory in morality/self-sacrifice that eclipses strength and intelligence. Now, this episode differs because Finn was willing to sacrifice his own life but was robbed of this heroism by PB.
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Nov 26, 2013 09:45
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Rewatching the episode, I noticed that we see Zombie James at the end of the episode, which is a big gently caress YOU to PB's rationalization that she could just recreate James. The James she remade is not the same person.
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Nov 26, 2013 09:48
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Looking at it from a monotheistic perspective may be the wrong way to go about it. A figure compared to the transcendent, ineffable, almighty, Abrahamic sort of lord of all creation necessarily falls short due to being fallible and having identifiable qualities, but more importantly, will, in falling short, be deemed more like a sort of Lucifer or Antichrist figure. Ooo already has such a transcendent divinity in the form of the Cosmic Owl, and her ambitions are quite a bit less mystical. If nothing else, I think we can all agree that Princess Bubblegum is not Satan. But she is clearly not like mortals either. She lives forever, gives law, knows secrets, speaks in riddles, works miracles (raising the dead, healing the sick, creating life, erasing memories, contending with sorcerers), and makes judgments that lesser beings would not dare. That's very much in keeping with (modern understandings of) polytheistic notions of divinity. She's the patron deity of her people - fallible, yes, but also the sort of god-king that ancient despots sometimes came to be remembered as: a young and immediate god who also dwells in a universe shaped by older, scarier, primeval forces. Even benevolent such figures seem unsettling at best when judged by humanistic morals. That, of course, is part of the effectiveness of the character - we see her from the perspective of Finn, who is not a candy person and not her subject, and so witnesses the founding myths of the Candy Kingdom from that (Finn the) humanistic viewpoint. That's just one of the many flavors of uncanniness that make the show so distinctive. To be a "Princess" obviously means something more special on Ooo than it does on Earth, and I don't think we have fully grasped the significance of it. Or of the crowns. Bongo Bill fucked around with this message at 09:52 on Nov 26, 2013 |
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Nov 26, 2013 09:49
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VanSandman posted:A-OK? If it's a riddle, then my interpretation is a-ok -> agood -> amoral. Probably stupidly simplistic though! I suspect it just means what it usually means: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A-ok Sometimes AT is subtle and deep, but I do not believe this is one of those times -- it's just a coin with Peeble's picture and a motto expressing enthusiasm for science.
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Nov 26, 2013 09:52
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Adventure Time does Wrath of Khan, Steven Universe goes all Akira (watch it!).
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Nov 26, 2013 09:52
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Steve Yun posted:Rewatching the episode, I noticed that we see Zombie James at the end of the episode, which is a big gently caress YOU to PB's rationalization that she could just recreate James. The James she remade is not the same person. Well yeah, duh, they make that pretty clear. James Clone doesn't even know what he did to deserve a medal and doesn't even have any of the memories of his own lucky coin. The whole episode basically asks the question of whether it's morally okay to just clone somebody who is deemed expendable because while from a scientific standpoint the clone is the same, there is more to a sentient life form than the candy biomass that makes up their being. It also asks the question of strict decision making based on calculations and science versus morals and fighting regardless. PB says that she'd scientifically come to the conclusion that there was only one possible outcome but this begs the question of how things would have played had she let them play out, if the situation really would have gone the way she believed it to or if she would have been wrong in her calculations. It's like in the film version of I, Robot where Will Smith's character has a grudge against robots because he was once in a car accident where a robot was put in a position to save either him or a child and the robot chose him over the child even though he'd asked it to save the child because the robot had calculated that Will Smith's character had a higher chance of surviving the incident. And then Shie Labeouf got beat up by some robots. The episode poses some interesting questions but it isn't exactly subtle about them
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Nov 26, 2013 10:02
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Steve Yun posted:edit: okay, later in the episode you see James' coin more clearly. It says "Science is A-OK" Okay, I'm still forming my thoughts, but how's this: This episode is about wrestling with moral questions that science opens up. PB tells herself that it's alright to sacrifice James because thanks to the magic of science, she can just create a new James. This gives her the moral justification to throw James under the bus. We see Zombie James at the end, which is an unexpected repercussion of her decision. So... my feeling is that PB is overconfident in the ability of science to solve all problems, moral and otherwise. The coin saying "Science is A-OK" and her giving the thumbs up is the symbol of this attitude. I feel especially strong about this in context of Lady & Peebles, an episode where PB was shouting that science was on their side and that it would help them save Finn & Jake. Science and technology utterly fail them in that episode and she ends up beating Ricardio by relying on her own strength and wits.
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Nov 26, 2013 10:02
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Tanks in the background, remnants of war everywhere in Ooo. I hope they tell the whole mushroom war story one day.
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Nov 26, 2013 10:42
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Say Nothing posted:Tanks in the background, remnants of war everywhere in Ooo. I hope they tell the whole mushroom war story one day. There was a lot of cool stuff in the background. You could see some out the window when Jake was whining about not getting a chance to explore.
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Nov 26, 2013 10:50
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The worst thing I think PB did this episode was knock out both Finn and Jake with a wrench. She's never done something so... unilateral before to either of them. That's about equivalent to Finn's lowest point so far, of forcibly taking PB's princess gem from her at the Lich King's behest.
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Nov 26, 2013 10:51
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Guys, what if PB's long life has been enabled by her repeatedly cloning... herself?
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Nov 26, 2013 11:08
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We're going to look back at this episode as a step in the transformation of PB's character, just like the first time Walter White killed someone, then brought him back to life using chemistry on Breaking Bad.
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Nov 26, 2013 11:10
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This episode was amazing. And horrid. And it asks a lot of questions that most people won't be able to answer. This episode is Perfect. More and more I start to disagree with Princes Bubblegum's decisions, though I admit this is entirely because of my own views on morality. It is pretty interesting to see more of the way PB treats her subjects. It feels almost bipolar (there might be a better word for it, but I don't think my English is strong enough to find it) in that she treats them both as children to be taken care of and protected, and tools that are completely interchangeable, since she can just make more if she wants to. The thought that she's planning on spreading the Candy Kingdom's territory is honestly kind of frightening.
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Nov 26, 2013 11:39
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Mimir posted:We're going to look back at this episode as a step in the transformation of PB's character, just like the first time Walter White killed someone, then brought him back to life using chemistry on Breaking Bad. snucks fucked around with this message at 11:58 on Nov 26, 2013 |
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Nov 26, 2013 11:55
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Why hasn't she tried to expand her kingdom before now? Why made her decide it was time?
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Nov 26, 2013 12:03
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Mimir posted:We're going to look back at this episode as a step in the transformation of PB's character, just like the first time Walter White killed someone, then brought him back to life using chemistry on Breaking Bad. She's basically full on Candyberg at this point.
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Nov 26, 2013 12:16
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Bown posted:She's basically full on Candyberg at this point. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AxiUquVv-dI
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Nov 26, 2013 15:31
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VanSandman posted:Why hasn't she tried to expand her kingdom before now? Why made her decide it was time? The unprecedented prosperity that her kingdom has enjoyed under the protection and with the support of Finn and Jake! 
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Nov 26, 2013 16:06
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Holy poo poo this episode. Man I love Adventure time.
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Nov 26, 2013 16:36
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I kinda feel like PB didn't clone James for his own sake, she cloned him for everyone else to soften the impact of losing someone they knew, and make Finn feel better about having someone else die for him. I'm sure she knows that the cloned James is a different person from the original one, but it helps other people deal with what happened. She really did make the right decision though, James may have been a goofy candy person but he wasn't mentally disabled, or at least no more so than most other candy people. I feel like it wouldn't be much of a challenge to find a pretty good number of candy people who would give their lives to save PB. Really the dude died for his country in a real and direct way, this isn't some "go kill some brown people somewhere that weren't much of a threat to you or your country at all", he died to save the most important person in the candy kingdom, and the only three people really able to defend it from all the things that threaten it. ChairMaster fucked around with this message at 17:05 on Nov 26, 2013 |
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Nov 26, 2013 17:03
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poo poo, I've been trying to make an intelligent post about this episode for 15 minutes now and I still can't figure out what to say. poo poo's confusing, yo. Did anyone think of Pulp Fiction when they saw Finn & Jake in those suits, tho?
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Nov 26, 2013 17:25
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verybad posted:Did anyone think of Pulp Fiction when they saw Finn & Jake in those suits, tho? Immediately. Also I thought it was pretty great how zombie James made dumb robot noises with his mouth when he moved just like alive James did.
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Nov 26, 2013 17:27
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Hell, Jake's snout even looks like Samuel L. Jackson beard in the movie. Was it just an empty reference, though? I don't really see how it ties up with anything else in the episode.
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Nov 26, 2013 17:43
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Who knows how the "original" James came about? Maybe he was like the 10th clone. Maybe she just created him a week ago. Would that change the morality of sacrificing him? Do candy people have souls if they were just created in PB's lab?
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Nov 26, 2013 17:45
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VanSandman posted:Why hasn't she tried to expand her kingdom before now? Why made her decide it was time? This episode is more like Wrath of Khan the more I think about it. The Federation was exploring new planets to colonize, when they get trapped by an old foe. James gives up a part of himself to be cloned the way Spock planted his memories in McCoy to be resurrected.
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Nov 26, 2013 17:50
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cjg posted:Who knows how the "original" James came about? Maybe he was like the 10th clone. Maybe she just created him a week ago. Would that change the morality of sacrificing him? Do candy people have souls if they were just created in PB's lab? We've never seen a ghost of a candy person as far as I can remember, so maybe not.
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Nov 26, 2013 17:55
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I feel they've made PB's nature pretty clear in the show, especially the episode where Finn's awkwardly trying to date her again. She is old, she has a ton of responsibilities, she can't be soft because she's protecting a weak people in an extraordinarily hostile world. Finn's not going to be there to help forever and neither is she. I think PB is an amazing character for that reason. She is one of the only positive representations of this kind of pragmatic and fair ruler. Most shows would give the characters the Kirk-third-way so nothing is lost and everyone gets out okay and yaaaay. Adventure Time is mature enough to acknowledge that sometimes there are bad consequences no matter what and the ability to prioritize is important.
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Nov 26, 2013 17:59
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James was a god damned hero and selfless character. "Oh hey Jake you're feeling sad, here have my most prized possession. No biggie! Oh you want me to die so you three can escape? A-Okay, Princess!"
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Nov 26, 2013 18:13
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TheBystander posted:I have to disagree with you here. PB's actions this episode felt especially callous, and while she may be their creator, the Candy People are still sentient beings, not pawns to be discarded. Her attitude towards her subjects is going to lead to problems down the road: it's already caused Cinnamon Bun to leave, and I suspect Finn and Jake may experience a similar crisis of faith soon enough. I'm just wondering what this will lead to: a candy revolution, perhaps? It'd be interesting to see PB's kingdom experience problems parallel to the Lemongrabs'. Is the Cinnamon Bun we see back in the kingdom in We Fixed a Truck the same CB that left with Flame Princess?
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Nov 26, 2013 18:39
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So this may have already been answered and it doesn't have anything to do with the the last episode but I just noticed in the intro of adventure time there is a mean/evil looking character that you can see standing in the candy castle for a split second as the camera zooms by. I've seen every episode and I don't recognize them at all, do we have any idea who that is at this point?
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Nov 26, 2013 18:52
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That is clearly PB's original butler, Brownie Butler. Although he looks mean, he is a super nice dude. He was killed and replaced by the coldhearted monster Peppermint Butler.
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Nov 26, 2013 19:18
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Lunimeow posted:So this may have already been answered and it doesn't have anything to do with the the last episode but I just noticed in the intro of adventure time there is a mean/evil looking character that you can see standing in the candy castle for a split second as the camera zooms by. I've seen every episode and I don't recognize them at all, do we have any idea who that is at this point? It's a gingerbread version of storyboarder Adam Muto.
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Nov 26, 2013 19:20
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