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Davincie posted:I might be wrong, but didn't those guys fight for practically free, instead of being hired to fight? Can't really call them mercenaries then. I think they may have been entitled to a stipend or commission of some sort as they were, for almost all intents and purposes, flying as French belligerents. Some of the pilots actually had ties to France in the first place, either as expats or through family. It didn't mean they were conscripted or pressed, just that they may have held allegiance to France in some way and might have just as quickly fought in the trenches. They were still volunteers, though. I don't think they were as clearly mercenaries as would be actual 'soldiers of fortune' a la Hessian mercenaries in the 18th century or Carthage's hired armies in the Punic wars, but they were about as close to the typical mercs engaging in war as day labor as you could get without actually haggling over pay. It wasn't like the US was in the war as a state actor yet, and they weren't an irregular, self-contained, organized unit, but at the same time their status was somewhat separate from French forces proper as they were kept as a contiguous element.
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Nov 25, 2013 18:50
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Outside Dawg posted:Yes, I believe the current "politically correct" term is Private Military Contractor, the US government (unless something has changed recently that I am unaware of), justifies this by their status as a participatory nation and not a signatory one. Yeah, no. Foreign members of a national military are not mercenaries. You are just wrong on this. There's no 'obscuring the truth of their practices' here, literally all professional soldiers work for their wages, there's no requirement in the Geneva convention that you pass a Nationalist fevor test to be a true soldier. In any case that's just one stage of a multi-stage test you need to go through to know if you are looking at a mercenary. Alchenar fucked around with this message at 19:35 on Nov 25, 2013 |
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Nov 25, 2013 19:31
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Outside Dawg, would it be correct to say that you place special emphasis on the word merely? As in, any professional soldier is paid to fight, but a mercenary fights only for coin, no greater purpose?
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Nov 25, 2013 19:33
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The Entire Universe posted:I don't think they were as clearly mercenaries as would be actual 'soldiers of fortune' a la Hessian mercenaries in the 18th century...
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Nov 25, 2013 19:37
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It's also a moot point for the Ghurkas 'cause India and Nepal were British during the world wars, regardless of how you define mercenary.
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Nov 25, 2013 19:37
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The Geneva protocols on mercenaries is not just some idle nicety to obscure the truth. It is literally international law. It's what determines your legal treatment if you get captured. There is no way, as you seem to argue, to make yourself somehow not a mercenary by claiming you are motivated by patriotism or something. (By your definition, also, Ghurkhas are not mercenaries because they can be motivated by the citizenship benefits, or the goal of gaining reputation.)
Fangz fucked around with this message at 19:47 on Nov 25, 2013 |
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Nov 25, 2013 19:43
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Alchenar posted:that's just one stage of a multi-stage test you need to go through to know if you are looking at a mercenary. I Among twenty snowy mountains, The only moving thing Was the eye of the mercenary. II I was of three minds, Like a field In which there are three mercenaries. III The mercenary whirled in the autumn winds. He was a small part of the pantomime. IV A man and a woman Are one. A man and a woman and a mercenary Are one. V I do not know which to prefer, The beauty of inflections Or the beauty of innuendoes, The mercenary singing Or just after. VI Icicles filled the long window With barbaric glass. The shadow of the mercenary Crossed it, to and fro. The mood Traced in the shadow An indecipherable cause. VII O thin men of Humanism, Why do you imagine golden legions? Do you not see how the mercenary Walks around The citizens about you? VIII I know noble accents And lucid, inescapable rhythms; But I know, too, That the mercenary is involved In what I know. IX When the mercenaries marched out of sight, They marked the edge Of one of many circles. X At the sight of mercenaries Marching in a green light, Even the bawds of euphony Would cry out sharply. XI He rode over the Palatinate In a glass coach. Once, a fear pierced him, In that he mistook The shadow of his equipage For mercenaries. XII The river is moving. The mercenaries must be heading out. XIII It was evening all afternoon. It was snowing And it was going to snow. The mercenary sat Beneath the cedar-limbs. HEY GUNS fucked around with this message at 20:11 on Nov 25, 2013 |
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Nov 25, 2013 19:47
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Caustic Soda posted:Outside Dawg, would it be correct to say that you place special emphasis on the word merely? As in, any professional soldier is paid to fight, but a mercenary fights only for coin, no greater purpose? Yes, granted as a citizen, you are paid to serve in your own military, however the motivations to serve, in most cases, goes far beyond just fighting for coin. I could have made far more as a mercenary, than I ever did serving in my country's military.
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Nov 25, 2013 19:48
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Fangz posted:The Geneva protocols on mercenaries is not just some idle nicety to obscure the truth. It is literally international law. It's what determines your legal treatment if you get captured. There is no way, as you seem to argue, to make yourself somehow not a mercenary by claiming you are motivated by patriotism or something. (By your definition, also, Ghurkhas are not mercenaries because they can be motivated by the citizenship benefits, or the goal of gaining reputation.) Meh not everything is cut and dry, Loyalist Paramilitaries were supported by the British army financially and the most common motive was monetary gain. As for the correct classification and treatment of combatants, I think we all know it's a situation of the strong deciding what constitutes acceptable classification and behaviour. AdmiralSmeggins fucked around with this message at 19:51 on Nov 25, 2013 |
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Nov 25, 2013 19:48
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Please repost in the GiP contractor megathread, tia.
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Nov 25, 2013 19:55
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EDIT: Thought better of the derail. Sorry about that.
Azathoth fucked around with this message at 21:04 on Nov 25, 2013 |
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Nov 25, 2013 20:52
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Goodbye thread, we hardly knew ye.
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Nov 25, 2013 20:53
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What does this thread have in common with Madgeburg? Both got ran into the ground by mercenaries!
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Nov 25, 2013 21:05
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Outside Dawg posted:Yes, granted as a citizen, you are paid to serve in your own military, however the motivations to serve, in most cases, goes far beyond just fighting for coin. I could have made far more as a mercenary, than I ever did serving in my country's military. Ah, I thought as much. I would argue that defining a mercenary based on motivation is problematic though, as that is a fickle and often multidimensional thing. Azathoth has made the point of coin as a major/only motivator to join a national army. I am under the impression that service as a mercenary may also include non-monetary concerns, albeit not necessary the main one. For example, IIRC the majority of Wild Geese mercenaries made a point of serving in catholic forces, often against protestant forces. HEGEL'd probably know better than I, though. There's some overlap with her (?) time period. Edit: Has the MilHist thread been taken over by mercenary talk before? I only knew of WW2 talk, especially tank destroyers or that bear. Caustic Soda fucked around with this message at 21:11 on Nov 25, 2013 |
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Nov 25, 2013 21:09
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Caustic Soda posted:For example, IIRC the majority of Wild Geese mercenaries made a point of serving in catholic forces, often against protestant forces. HEGEL'd probably know better than I, though. There's some overlap with her (?) time period. The Scots were the same thing but for Protestant powers like Gustavus Adolphus. On the other hand, Germans switch sides a lot and I am not personally familiar with anyone having a crisis of conscience if their latest employer happens to practice a different religion. Even Monro, one of the aforementioned Scots and a staunch Calvinist, could make jokes about religious differences and chill out every time he went to a dinner party with Catholics. Edit: Agean90 posted:What does this thread have in common with Madgeburg? Both got ran into the ground by mercenaries! HEY GUNS fucked around with this message at 23:42 on Nov 25, 2013 |
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Nov 25, 2013 21:18
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Hm. I suppose I shouldn't be surprised that the Early Modern Era had both hateful religious bigots and more cosmopolitan people. People are people, after all, no matter the era.
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Nov 25, 2013 21:28
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Caustic Soda posted:Hm. I suppose I shouldn't be surprised that the Early Modern Era had both hateful religious bigots and more cosmopolitan people. People are people, after all, no matter the era. For that matter, the royal family of Saxony have been Catholic ever since August the Strong had to convert in order to become King of Poland, but as heads of Saxony they were still heads of the Corpus Evangelicorum, and...as far as I know, everyone seemed OK with this. (He built a covered bridge between the royal residence and the main Catholic church in Dresden so the Protestant courtiers wouldn't see the Catholic ones going to church and make fun of them, but that was about it.) HEY GUNS fucked around with this message at 21:57 on Nov 25, 2013 |
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Nov 25, 2013 21:38
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To bring it back to thin sword chat again I just saw this video and it is pertinent (to a week ago): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=efZLw-tlIOs he also disagrees with me on the hand thing  And I haven't watched most of the videos yet (he has like a bazillion of them jeez) but this channel looks fairly good and way better than most weapon focused youtubes.
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Nov 25, 2013 23:11
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Azran posted:
I can't actually answer the question, but as a practical matter you don't want to be above 10k feet without supplemental oxygen. I suspect most fighter engagements were below that threshold, but this is an assumption. Edit: Curious what the thread thinks about the hundreds (possibly thousands) of foreign citizens serving as enlisted members of the US military. They're not mercenaries Godholio fucked around with this message at 23:14 on Nov 25, 2013 |
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Nov 25, 2013 23:11
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Thanks a lot. Gotta say your posts got me into reading more about planes, and I'm just in love with the topic.
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Koramei posted:To bring it back to thin sword chat again I just saw this video and it is pertinent (to a week ago): I like this guy, he teaches longsword primarily but dabbles in whatever swords catch his fancy.
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Nov 25, 2013 23:17
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On the mercenary thing, so far it looks like a distinct command structure is the best single point definition. Mercenaries have their own leadership and internal hierarchy distinct from national ones.
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Nov 25, 2013 23:31
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Godholio posted:Edit: Curious what the thread thinks about the hundreds (possibly thousands) of foreign citizens serving as enlisted members of the US military. They're not mercenaries Being a mercenary isn't inherently immoral, it's the use they're often put to in the 20th and 21st centuries, as Alchenar mentioned, that is. Edit: Koesj posted:Please repost in the GiP contractor megathread, tia. 
HEY GUNS fucked around with this message at 23:48 on Nov 25, 2013 |
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Nov 25, 2013 23:38
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veekie posted:On the mercenary thing, so far it looks like a distinct command structure is the best single point definition. Mercenaries have their own leadership and internal hierarchy distinct from national ones. What is the consensus on the international brigades in Spain, then? The Condor Legion or the various pro-Republican forces were organized seperately from the locals, I think. Does the Geneva Convention treat ”adventurers” or foreign volunteers as lawful combatants?
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Nov 26, 2013 00:13
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sullat posted:What is the consensus on the international brigades in Spain, then? The Condor Legion or the various pro-Republican forces were organized seperately from the locals, I think. Does the Geneva Convention treat ”adventurers” or foreign volunteers as lawful combatants? Hahahaha the Geneva convention being followed in Spain, that's a good one. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Terror_(Spain) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Terror_(Spain) If you were captured by the other side in the Spanish civil war the odds were fairly good you'd be dead in a matter of hours.
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Nov 26, 2013 00:42
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sullat posted:What is the consensus on the international brigades in Spain, then? The Condor Legion or the various pro-Republican forces were organized seperately from the locals, I think. Does the Geneva Convention treat ”adventurers” or foreign volunteers as lawful combatants? They were, but then the bulk of the Republican army was being built from scratch while under war-fighting conditions, which confuses things somewhat. To quote the wiki: quote:Later in the war, military discipline tightened and learning Spanish became mandatory. By decree of 23 September 1937, the International Brigades formally became units of the Spanish Foreign Legion.[13] This made them subject to the Spanish Code of Military Justice. However the Spanish Foreign Legion itself sided with the Nationalists throughout the coup and the civil war.[13] The same decree also specified that non-Spanish officers in the Brigades should not exceed Spanish ones by more than 50 per cent[14] That indicates that (if anyone had cared at the time, which they didn't) they were incorporated into the army.
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Nov 26, 2013 00:46
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I'm not sure if this counts, since they were organised into the German Army, under the command of a German general, but IIRC Lettow-Vorbeck hired a lot of Askaris who were not part of/native to the German colonies (and, I'm told, poached soldiers from entente forces) with such insidious tactics as offering higher pay. There would, of course, be no other motivation for joining the dastardly Hun as no right-thinking African fellow had cause to complain about the enlightened rule of Britain, France, or Belgium in the late 1800-early 1900s, but those chaps are easily distracted by the sorts of shiny baubles offered by the Bosch.
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Nov 26, 2013 01:47
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Godholio posted:I can't actually answer the question, but as a practical matter you don't want to be above 10k feet without supplemental oxygen. I suspect most fighter engagements were below that threshold, but this is an assumption. And WWI did feature some supplemental oxygen systems. In 1917(?) the German deployed oxygen apparatus for some reconnaissance and fighter aircraft as well as for Zeppelin crews. The British had a similar system deployed about the same time. They weren't widely used, though.  
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Nov 26, 2013 02:11
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Raskolnikov38 posted:Hahahaha the Geneva convention being followed in Spain, that's a good one. Well, sure, on a practical level the convention is mostly a suggestion, and the feared atrocities of the Republic were matched with very concrete retaliation by the nationalists, but I am curious about the legal status of volunteers and advisors not associated with a foreign government. Since the international brigades were folded inro the regular army, that does seem to resolve the issue in their case.
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Nov 26, 2013 03:37
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I don't know in which tread to post anymore  How was mental trauma dealt with before the 20th century? I assume it's somewhere between "gently caress that grunt" and "a farmer doesn't need a psychiatrist" but there must be at least some novels about how people dealt with their traumas afterwards. I assume that months of marching desperate for food coupled with the occasional stabbing and shooting must upset your brain on a somewhat equal term as modern day warfare. a travelling HEGEL posted:I know. And anything I say to this conversation will probably be an outlier anyway, since I believe that nationalism is mental poison while exchanging services for cash is a sensible idea. Make sure, however, that you'll actually be paid for your services before joining on a foreign adventure http://www.interpretermag.com/the-last-battle-of-the-slavonic-corps/
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Nov 26, 2013 05:00
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sullat posted:What is the consensus on the international brigades in Spain, then? The Condor Legion or the various pro-Republican forces were organized seperately from the locals, I think. Does the Geneva Convention treat ”adventurers” or foreign volunteers as lawful combatants? The Geneva conventions as applicable to prisoners of war deals significantly with only declared wars between states, not civil wars.
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Nov 26, 2013 05:18
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Mans posted:I don't know in which tread to post anymore The same way that sadly too many people deal with it today. Lots of alcohol.
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Nov 26, 2013 06:07
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Mans posted:I don't know in which tread to post anymore A lot of what we think as trauma symptoms are simply adaptation to combat though. Paranoia and hyperalertness are useful traits when you really have a decent chance of being stabbed.
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Nov 26, 2013 07:26
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Koramei posted:To bring it back to thin sword chat again I just saw this video and it is pertinent (to a week ago): That video though, the misconception... it seems to me that any rapier I've ever handled has been heavy enough, but compared to the blocky "conan sword" stuff that most people get to try out around these parts the fact that it "only" weighs 2-3 lbs means that it's maybe half or even only a third of the weight of those crowbars. The terrible balance of the kind of thing that gets bought out of wolf and dragon t-shirt shops doesn't help the perception either.
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Nov 26, 2013 07:51
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Fangz posted:The Geneva conventions as applicable to prisoners of war deals significantly with only declared wars between states, not civil wars. It does *now*. Article 3 specifically talks about "conflicts not of an international character," but that bit didn't exist until the post-war.
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Nov 26, 2013 09:25
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Mans posted:I don't know in which tread to post anymore quote:Hofer introduced nostalgia or mal du pays, "homesickness," for the condition also known as mal du Suisse, "Swiss illness," or Schweizerheimweh, "Swiss homesickness," because of its frequent occurrence in Swiss mercenaries who in the plains of lowlands of France or Italy were pining for their native mountain landscapes. Symptoms were also thought to include fainting, high fever, indigestion, stomach pain, and death Edit: These people are crude, accustomed to violence in their lives and justice system, and inured to their own suffering and the suffering of others. But they're not monsters. If you see someone in trouble, your instinct is to help--they simply do not know how. HEY GUNS fucked around with this message at 13:39 on Nov 26, 2013 |
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Nov 26, 2013 12:53
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Arquinsiel posted:Him and Lindybeige make a lot of good points about weapon use. Lindybeige seems to have a drat solid pedigree in ancient-to-midieval weapons based on how he talks, but he seems to always be very careful to state that he is only putting forward an idea or opinion of his own and not fact. Lindybeige is chronically wrong, and he puts himself forward as an authority. Whether or not it's just his opinion he expects people to treat it as credible historical fact. As such he deserves to get ripped. Over in the medieval history thread Hegel did an excellent job of demolishing his thoughts on pikes. He really embodies the bad aspects of reenactors, specifically the notion that what they do is perfect historical reconstruction. Therefore if something works for them it must have been how they did it in the past. Primary sources? Who needs em?! I've been there, maaaaan. The schola gladiatoria guy seems fine though. Railtus, the medieval history OP, would have a stronger opinion since medieval & renaissance martial arts are his focus.
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Nov 26, 2013 15:59
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Rodrigo Diaz posted:Lindybeige is chronically wrong, and he puts himself forward as an authority. Whether or not it's just his opinion he expects people to treat it as credible historical fact. As such he deserves to get ripped. Would you be able to elaborate? I've seen quite a few of that guy's videos and he came through as an utterly insufferable know-it-all (which was cemented when he made some videos about "People care about global warming? More like sheeple!  ")
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Nov 26, 2013 16:06
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The only video i saw of him was the one about hoplites and how silly it is to think they fought with pushing matches, since that's a wonderful way of killing your frontline and making spears useless. He seemed pretty sensible.
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Nov 26, 2013 16:23
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steinrokkan posted:Would you be able to elaborate? I've seen quite a few of that guy's videos and he came through as an utterly insufferable know-it-all (which was cemented when he made some videos about "People care about global warming? More like sheeple! Sure. Here's Hegel's post where she's responding to the linked video (even though she doesn't include it in the quotes for some reason) http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3529788&userid=191005#post413782784 As for my particular issue, the best one I can think of is his insistence that spears (edit: single-handed spears that is) were used exclusively underhand unless you were throwing them, based on his experiences as a reenactor. Someone in the comments section pointed out that plenty of red figure pottery (the stereotypical Greek vase) has overhand spear use. He made a reply video where he insisted the only possible reason such a use was included is because these artists were trying to sell pots, and overhand spear use looked more dramatic. He then cherry-picked some examples of what he considers to be 'more realistic' depictions where, of course, the spears are underhand. It was really blatant confirmation bias. This is ignoring of course the resources of the Bayeux Tapestry (where basically ALL the English foot are using their spears overhand) and the Morgan Bible (where the one example of single-handed spear-use by infantry is overhand) Rodrigo Diaz fucked around with this message at 16:46 on Nov 26, 2013 |
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Nov 26, 2013 16:28
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Rodrigo Diaz posted:Sure. Here's Hegel's post where she's responding to the linked video (even though she doesn't include it in the quotes for some reason) http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3529788&userid=191005#post413782784  Rodrigo Diaz posted:This is ignoring of course the resources of the Bayeux Tapestry (where basically ALL the English foot are using their spears overhand) and the Morgan Bible (where the one example of single-handed spear-use by infantry is overhand) 
HEY GUNS fucked around with this message at 17:04 on Nov 26, 2013 |
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Nov 26, 2013 17:01
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