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LordLeckie posted:Yeah it really cannot be emphasized enough at how loving bad the fort sieging is, they are 100% uncrackable there is NOTHING you can do about it and slowly domkilling a nation known for taking Dom 9/10 awake pretenders in 100% of builds is not going to happen in any reasonable period of time. Death to freespawn.
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Nov 26, 2013 14:41
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jBrereton posted:I'm having a remarkably similar experience against Pan, with the only difference being that their provinces are worth something. Yeah free spawn nations with the new fort values are just stupid, in Dom3 the only nation that had that level of fort defence was Caelum for its capital and maybe 2-3 other nations and i think if you even had the chance to make a Mountain Citadel elsewhere they cost an extremely large amount of gold.
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Nov 26, 2013 15:14
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Irony.or.Death posted:Just for the record (for the billionth time), Ermor's never been banned around here because we think it's too powerful. It's just that they seriously distort the game; start next to them and while you might well win the war, you're going to lose the game because you just dumped a ton of resources into taking land that has no value while people who did not start next to them have been conquering land that produces gold. Just quoting this. Seriously, the only way to win a game with Ermor in it is to not invade them.
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Nov 26, 2013 15:44
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Remember to bring pack lunches when you fight Ermor/Lemuria.
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Nov 26, 2013 17:14
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Neif posted:Sorry I didn't meant to come across as portraying you as an oathbreaker - you kept to the NAP as required I was just being dramatic in my brief AAR. I fully expected you to attack, It was the most logical path to take and you played soundly. The random event next to your capital was really bad luck - I did notice you got a second identical event later on. I assume it has something to with your misfortune scales? My apologies, I think I overreacted a little there. Neif posted:The event is pretty sweet I didn't even take any misfortune  Very cool & thematic event, just a bit brutal on turn 2. On your first expanison province. Hey ho, them's the breaks. I'm increasingly coming to the conclusion that whenever I play MA I should pick a race & build that could at least theoretically trouble Ermor, and if I don't start next to them, bonus!
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Nov 26, 2013 20:08
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It's a shame population issues like that make otherwise thematically interesting nations undesirable in multiplayer.
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Nov 26, 2013 20:16
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I imagine you could make an Ermor balancing mod that removed the popkill and I dunno maybe jacked up the prices of Ermor temples and forts in order to make up for all the extra cash they'd receive. Ermor doesn't recruit its commanders anyway, right?
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Nov 26, 2013 20:41
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FnF posted:My apologies, I think I overreacted a little there. This was my plan with Mari. You can see how well it has worked out so far.
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Nov 26, 2013 20:45
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Unfortunately, fort prices can't be edited. The best mp-balance would be a way to make land under their dominion receive between 0 to 10% of potential tax revenue without actually killing the people inside. Though that would gently caress them over in a different way, as they would never be able to afford forts to get the better undead spawns.
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Nov 26, 2013 20:47
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Not sure if this would be the best way, but you could change the way the game handles population and growth/death scales. Have provinces have a base population, with scales (and popkill dominion) being a percentage modifier. Have the population slowly grow/shrink to the modified value when under the effects of dominion. So a base 5000 population province under the effects of death 3 would slowly shrink down to say 3000, then later if it comes under growth 3 it could expand up to 7000. This would mean the effects of blood hunting and raiding (and Armageddon) would be similarly temporary, but it'd make it possible to keep Ermor thematic without permanently crippling its close neighbours. Not possible with mods, its a core design issue really.
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Nov 26, 2013 21:06
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How are u posted:I imagine you could make an Ermor balancing mod that removed the popkill and I dunno maybe jacked up the prices of Ermor temples and forts in order to make up for all the extra cash they'd receive. Ermor doesn't recruit its commanders anyway, right?  Fort prices can be edited, Speleothing. Giving Ermor #fortcost 50 makes its forts 50% more expensive, for example.
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Nov 26, 2013 22:59
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 goon diplomacy is the best diplomacy.
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Nov 27, 2013 06:15
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jBrereton posted:Having just tested this, you can change the popkill to anything you like, but the nation starts off with a bit less than 2000 population. It'll rise from 1800ish with Growth scales, though What they really need is a way to change #poppergold on a per nation basis. That way you could cut Ermor's tax income to, say, 10% of everyone else, and tone down the popkill to match.
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Nov 27, 2013 06:27
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Do that and you're just neutering their dominion effects on other people, while retaining the disadvantages for them as an additional gently caress you. The stated problem isn't that they're overpowered! They'd probably just end up pillaging the population away anyway, so it doesn't really even solve the problem.
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Nov 27, 2013 09:59
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tooterfish posted:Do that and you're just neutering their dominion effects on other people, while retaining the disadvantages for them as an additional gently caress you. The stated problem isn't that they're overpowered! I thought of something that's supported by the game's coding that could sort of solve this. You can have an event that triggers a new site in a province after a few turns, where that province now has a population of less than <X (say, 500, or 10% of starting value, whatever), and previously had ermor dominion of at least Y (say, 3 candles) but now has no ermor dominion. The site could be called "New Settlements" or something and add 500 population a turn for a set/semi-random number of turns between 4 and 10, then disappear. That way, even if you're losing the dominion battle against Ermor while you're fighting them, you would know that those provinces wouldn't be worthless forever. The other obvious solution is to tone down the domkill a lot and make it more like what a death scales of 6 would look like.
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Nov 27, 2013 14:40
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Smerdyakov posted:I thought of something that's supported by the game's coding that could sort of solve this. You can have an event that triggers a new site in a province after a few turns, where that province now has a population of less than <X (say, 500, or 10% of starting value, whatever), and previously had ermor dominion of at least Y (say, 3 candles) but now has no ermor dominion. Events that take people from random high pop provinces anywhere to move into Ermor's desolated lands once vacated/free of their dom would be good though it would need to be a pretty powerful effect to make a significant difference. Also the pop redistribution would make everyone feel some of the pain of Ermor once they are gone since it would pull pop from far away lands. Nuclearmonkee fucked around with this message at 16:40 on Nov 27, 2013 |
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Nov 27, 2013 16:38
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tooterfish posted:Do that and you're just neutering their dominion effects on other people, while retaining the disadvantages for them as an additional gently caress you. The stated problem isn't that they're overpowered! Yes their proposed solutions didn't care about how powerful Ermor is, what they care about is how unfun it is to fight. It isn't an attempt to balance the nation (most people don't even have a good grasp of how good or bad Ermor is, they just know that its awful to play against) its just an attempt to make fighting them actually worthwhile.
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Nov 27, 2013 16:39
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Nuclearmonkee posted:Events that take people from random high pop provinces anywhere to move into Ermor's desolated lands once vacated/free of their dom would be good though it would need to be a pretty powerful effect to make a significant difference. Also the pop redistribution would make everyone feel some of the pain of Ermor once they are gone since it would pull pop from far away lands.
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Nov 27, 2013 16:45
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Proposed solutions should care about how powerful Ermor is. If you destroy or augment their competitiveness too much you end up right back at square one, an Ermor free multiplayer. That seems like a wasted effort.
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Nov 27, 2013 17:18
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tooterfish posted:Proposed solutions should care about how powerful Ermor is. If you destroy or augment their competitiveness too much you end up right back at square one, an Ermor free multiplayer. That seems like a wasted effort. Just going to point out that people play every nation regardless of how bad they are. Balance has never really been a thing in Dominions.
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Nov 27, 2013 17:20
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tooterfish posted:Proposed solutions should care about how powerful Ermor is. If you destroy or augment their competitiveness too much you end up right back at square one, an Ermor free multiplayer. That seems like a wasted effort. Ermor is "powerful" in MP in that it has the capability to make other people lose their poo poo and declare you the winner because gently caress playing another 40 turns of Dominions trying to fight them off while you hate every minute of it. You could remove their domkill almost entirely and increase the upkeep on their national troops to a vaguely appropriate level to their actual worth as troops, but you might end up with the LA Rlyeh thing where you then need a state of constant war to stop their economy from completely bottoming out due to upkeep (and in Rlyeh's case, you can actually reduce some of it by starving your useless aquatic freespawn in a designated Tidal Pool of Annihilation after the ocean's been cleaned out, which you can't do with Longdead).
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Nov 27, 2013 17:24
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Lilli posted:Balance has never really been a thing in Dominions.
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Nov 27, 2013 17:52
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tooterfish posted:Sure, I totally get that. But a counterpoint to that is surely the traction CBM got? CBM is the worst mod and never had traction at SA.
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Nov 27, 2013 17:53
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Can't you deal with a fort by using siege units like siege golems? Or even just crumblespamming it if all else fails.
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Nov 27, 2013 17:54
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We had some CBM games, but I don't think it was ever about the balance part of it. It was about the EDM part of it which added new endgame options that didn't consist of clamming and tart factories. Which is why the Awesome Suite was more popular, as it had that without CBM's wide baseball bat swing balance attempts.
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Nov 27, 2013 17:55
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Neither is cost effective. The tried and true way to deal with a fort is to spam militia or slingers on it, unless you have some special national recruit. But in the case of Ermor with the mindless siege penalty missing, that's also not cost effective. CBM fixed a lot of balance problems but added just as many each version, and the infrequent versioning done really hurt it because things like the Zmey took literal years to adjust.
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Nov 27, 2013 17:56
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-Troika- posted:Can't you deal with a fort by using siege units like siege golems? Or even just crumblespamming it if all else fails.
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Nov 27, 2013 17:59
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TheDemon posted:CBM fixed a lot of balance problems but added just as many each version Or maybe use some kind of sieve. Zauper posted:CBM is the worst mod and never had traction at SA. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GEStsLJZhzo
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Nov 27, 2013 18:05
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I didn't play much CBM, but I could swear I remember Awesome Gods and Awesome Endgame or whatever being more popular than Vanilla in goon games.
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Nov 27, 2013 18:14
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The Sharmat posted:I didn't play much CBM, but I could swear I remember Awesome Gods and Awesome Endgame or whatever being more popular than Vanilla in goon games. The Awesome suite was the most popular combination for goon games I think. Forbidden Friendship was popular for a while, as it was a combination of CBM with some of the stupider stuff fixed as well as stuff from the awesome suite added in.
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Nov 27, 2013 18:46
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CBM was a textbook example of feature creep. There were a ton of good ideas in it, but the lack of a Fluffy Project Dictator ruling over documentation/focus with a iron fist meant it was doomed.
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Nov 27, 2013 19:16
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Smerdyakov posted:I thought of something that's supported by the game's coding that could sort of solve this. You can have an event that triggers a new site in a province after a few turns, where that province now has a population of less than <X (say, 500, or 10% of starting value, whatever), and previously had ermor dominion of at least Y (say, 3 candles) but now has no ermor dominion.
These ideas are somewhat unrealistic given the modding limitations, but perhaps they can provide food for thought. ZLogic fucked around with this message at 20:32 on Nov 27, 2013 |
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Nov 27, 2013 20:28
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Awesome mods are cool. They did excecerbate the situation of national troops being worthless most of the time. In dominions 4 troops are a pretty big part of the game. It is also slower. Will the next iteration of awesome mod make reduce the focus on national troops by making other options stronger?
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Nov 27, 2013 23:23
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TheDemon posted:CBM fixed a lot of balance problems but added just as many each version, and the infrequent versioning done really hurt it because things like the Zmey took literal years to adjust. Are you gonna do an updated version of your balance mod? The concept sounded really cool, but by the time I was done playing AwesomeMods games my circle of Dom3 players had gotten bored with the game.
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Nov 27, 2013 23:55
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:Are you gonna do an updated version of your balance mod? The concept sounded really cool, but by the time I was done playing AwesomeMods games my circle of Dom3 players had gotten bored with the game. Yes, Dominions Enhanced was pretty sweet. I was actually excited about playing MA Agartha, and they stayed in theme! I do think they were moderately OP though.
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Nov 28, 2013 00:01
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So what niche should Zmeys fill?
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Nov 28, 2013 01:07
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amuayse posted:So what niche should Zmeys fill? None, get rid of the fuckers and start over with a fire summon that doesn't fly, or have AoE3, or 25 strength with 3 attacks, or 150HP.
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Nov 28, 2013 01:48
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Decrepus posted:None, get rid of the fuckers and start over with a fire summon that doesn't fly, or have AoE3, or 25 strength with 3 attacks, or 150HP. Dont forget 3 lives to boot.
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Nov 28, 2013 03:22
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 So what exactly is going on? I need SUCH A BITCH the Crystal Sorc to cripple about 14 Fomorian kings with a Black Bow.
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Nov 28, 2013 04:11
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Her prec is going to be much higher in battle. She won't cripple 14 Fomorian Kings, she'll die before then. But she'll probably get at least one.
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Nov 28, 2013 04:19
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