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Blacktoll posted:The thing with Luther being sent back to Caliban makes sense to me. Maybe I'm outing myself as an aspie, but sending your most trusted friend to keep an eye in things doesn't seem like the worst move. No, it's probably the highest compliment you can give an old friend/comrade, but you should really take the time to explain WHY you are doing it. Also, probably not a good idea to do it immediately after that person is the center of a perceived slip-up in your personal security. edit: the focus of this post is on the fact that Luther was old , no way in hell he could've kept up with the new guys at that point. Immanentized fucked around with this message at 21:24 on Nov 26, 2013 |
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Nov 26, 2013 21:17
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Blacktoll posted:The thing with Luther being sent back to Caliban makes sense to me. Maybe I'm outing myself as an aspie, but sending your most trusted friend to keep an eye in things doesn't seem like the worst move. Sending all your most trusted friends away while you party with the cool new guys doesn't create a great impression.
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Nov 26, 2013 21:21
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I've always seen examples of this in the WH40k setting as people being shortsighted. The Emperor expecting more trust and obedience from the Primarchs, who don't understand his motives and plans, and the Primarchs themselves to their close human/astartes associates. In hindsight, there's always the argument that things could've been prevented if people had taken the time to stop and discuss things, but looking at things the other way you can just argue that it's not Emperor or a Primarch being an rear end in a top hat, or cryptic or arrogant, but simply expecting more from those under them. A small missjudgement, those below falling just short of expectations and the situations escalating through the machinations of chaos by exploiting that one small personal flaw. Worth juxtaposing this kind of situation is to the Ultramarines and Space Wolves, who show how Primarchs and their legions can excel without internal strife, achieved by from the beginning both their leaders fostering unparallel loyalty and unity of purpose.
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Nov 26, 2013 21:41
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Blacktoll posted:The thing with Luther being sent back to Caliban makes sense to me. Maybe I'm outing myself as an aspie, but sending your most trusted friend to keep an eye in things doesn't seem like the worst move. It's something like, say you and your friend have a company that makes games. You've both produced a few games together, and have had a few thousand downloads of "Bass Fishing Sim." Then suddenly Peter Jackson swoops in on a helicopter and tells you he wants your company to produce the videogame version of The Hobbit: The Desolation of Smaug. You and your friend are both really excited to begin work on this, but one day, after a minor fuckup that affects nothing in the long term, you tell your friend "Hey, how about you let me take this fresh new Hobbit game, you can go work on maintaining the updates for our musty old bass fishing game. It's a core product, you know?" In that situation, there's no way your friend wouldn't take it badly and end up corrupting the fishing game with Chaos.
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Nov 26, 2013 21:44
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The first book is really not incredibly well written but you are supposed to infer through the perceptions of the main character that the Lion is a withdrawn individual who plays his cards way too close to his chest, and hides things not because he doesn't trust people but because he doesn't even understand why they would mind him keeping secrets. The problem with the book is you never see a drat thing from the Lion's POV so you don't even realize he is keeping secrets and misunderstanding people. That's why most people were scratching their heads at the end of the book. I think the reader is supposed to be asking the same question the main character is asking, "What the gently caress just happened, am I being punished? Why?" But being as in the dark as all the characters all the way through a book without any resolution isn't fun. The second book at least fixed this by showing stuff from the Lion's POV and actually having him demonstrate his inability to understand people by literally having to ask his subordinates whether people sounded trustworthy or not.
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Nov 26, 2013 22:58
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bunnyofdoom posted:Has anyone read Engine of Mork? Is it actually from an ork POV? It is, and is super fun. I could easily see a full book being written in the style. It just seemed orky in all the right ways without seeming gimmicky. Great insight into how they think, too. I'd recommend it to anyone who wants a fun, cheap, orky read.
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Nov 27, 2013 00:33
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Sharkie posted:It's something like, say you and your friend have a company that makes games. You've both produced a few games together, and have had a few thousand downloads of "Bass Fishing Sim." Then suddenly Peter Jackson swoops in on a helicopter and tells you he wants your company to produce the videogame version of The Hobbit: The Desolation of Smaug. You and your friend are both really excited to begin work on this, but one day, after a minor fuckup that affects nothing in the long term, you tell your friend "Hey, how about you let me take this fresh new Hobbit game, you can go work on maintaining the updates for our musty old bass fishing game. It's a core product, you know?" In that situation, there's no way your friend wouldn't take it badly and end up corrupting the fishing game with Chaos. This is one of the most ridiculous, contrived examples to make a point I've read. And it's perfect.
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Nov 27, 2013 09:04
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God it really is.
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Nov 27, 2013 09:13
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Except the game has been in permanent pay-to-play beta with no feature-freeze for years, and what you tell your friend is to go recruit and train new dev team members because who you get keep rotating out, and without proper induction new blood can't handle your proprietary code and non-standard workflow. But he gets pissy and splits the company to join Valve.
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Nov 27, 2013 20:07
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Dog_Meat posted:In classic WH40k, the whole thing could have been sorted if they sat down with a beer and talked... You've figured it out, but unfortunately their superhuman biology prevents them from feeling the effects of alcohol. The Space Wolves invented a substance that could actually make a Space Marine drunk for exactly this reason, and now you know why they are so resistant to chaos...check please Black Library.
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Nov 27, 2013 21:14
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Gaben is clearly a follower of Nurgle.
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Nov 27, 2013 21:19
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Dog_Meat posted:Was he really power hungry? Kor Phaeron wanted to use Lorgar from the start, whereas Luther really was a father figure to the Lion until he surpassed him. And even then, he stepped aside. He also understood the Lion's isolation because he has no equals. Was Kor Phaeron totally like that towards Lorgar though? I may be misremembering the first heretic but I seem to recall that despite all the manipulation, when Lorgar went to fight Corax Phaeron's reaction was terror that his son was going to die. Maybe I interpreted it wrong but perhaps since Phaeron was a priest of the old religion and truly believes in the chaos stuff he actually does think of Lorgar as his son at the same time as he conspires to manipulate him onto the 'true' path.
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Nov 27, 2013 23:14
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If it helps, the Word Bearers in Squad Command on the DS shout "For Kor Phaeron!" when you kill them.... No I have no idea why either.
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Nov 27, 2013 23:53
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Mr Teatime posted:Was Kor Phaeron totally like that towards Lorgar though? I may be misremembering the first heretic but I seem to recall that despite all the manipulation, when Lorgar went to fight Corax Phaeron's reaction was terror that his son was going to die. Maybe I interpreted it wrong but perhaps since Phaeron was a priest of the old religion and truly believes in the chaos stuff he actually does think of Lorgar as his son at the same time as he conspires to manipulate him onto the 'true' path. The Word Bearers are loyal to Lorgar, not to him.
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Nov 28, 2013 00:04
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Mr Teatime posted:Was Kor Phaeron totally like that towards Lorgar though? I may be misremembering the first heretic but I seem to recall that despite all the manipulation, when Lorgar went to fight Corax Phaeron's reaction was terror that his son was going to die. Maybe I interpreted it wrong but perhaps since Phaeron was a priest of the old religion and truly believes in the chaos stuff he actually does think of Lorgar as his son at the same time as he conspires to manipulate him onto the 'true' path. I interpreted it more as "oh poo poo, if my benefactor dies my position in the legion shall crumble, too!" A lot of Word Bearers don't like Kor Phaeron on behalf of him being not being a full Space Marine and having only gotten his position due to Lorgar.
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Nov 28, 2013 00:56
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Know I'm late to the Lion/Luther discussion but one thing that wasn't mentioned is the similarity between Lion'El sending Luther back to Caliban and Horus sending Fulgrim to overlook the Istvaan V defenses. Both Fulgrim and and Luther took it as an insult. But where Luther just quietly accepted, Fulgrim threw a bitchfit and had it explained why he was chosen.
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Nov 28, 2013 01:29
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Lead Psychiatry posted:Know I'm late to the Lion/Luther discussion but one thing that wasn't mentioned is the similarity between Lion'El sending Luther back to Caliban and Horus sending Fulgrim to overlook the Istvaan V defenses. Both Fulgrim and and Luther took it as an insult. But where Luther just quietly accepted, Fulgrim threw a bitchfit and had it explained why he was chosen. It's amazing how a far a simple explanation goes. I had a colleague who would always bitch about the draconian way he was required to print a serial number and label each bar of loving RAM that came through recievings as well as every other item. It's a huge amount of work and he didn't see any good reason for it. Then someone explained to him it was so that each individual piece of stock could be tracked, dated and found. So if an HDD disappeared we knew exactly when it entered the warehouse, who had handled it and which shelf it had last been sitting on. And he went "oh, that makes sense  "
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Nov 28, 2013 12:52
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Mr Teatime posted:Was Kor Phaeron totally like that towards Lorgar though? I may be misremembering the first heretic but I seem to recall that despite all the manipulation, when Lorgar went to fight Corax Phaeron's reaction was terror that his son was going to die. Maybe I interpreted it wrong but perhaps since Phaeron was a priest of the old religion and truly believes in the chaos stuff he actually does think of Lorgar as his son at the same time as he conspires to manipulate him onto the 'true' path. Thats how I remember it too.
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Nov 28, 2013 16:00
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Mr.48 posted:Thats how I remember it too. It's very likely both. Kor Phaeron and Lorgar have been through a nasty civil war together and have a ton of history. It's entirely possible that Kor Phaeron realizes that his fate rises and falls along with his adoptive son's and makes sure to 'guide' the mercurial Lorgar. The reaction at Lorgar's risky gamble on Istvan could be both despair at losing someone that has been close to you for centuries and fear of losing his Legion meal ticket.
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Nov 28, 2013 16:16
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Demiurge4 posted:It's amazing how a far a simple explanation goes. I had a colleague who would always bitch about the draconian way he was required to print a serial number and label each bar of loving RAM that came through recievings as well as every other item. It's a huge amount of work and he didn't see any good reason for it. Then someone explained to him it was so that each individual piece of stock could be tracked, dated and found. So if an HDD disappeared we knew exactly when it entered the warehouse, who had handled it and which shelf it had last been sitting on. And he went "oh, that makes sense It's funny how dumb an ego can make you. In fairness to your co-worker, the task is tedious and most likely could be accomplished by anyone (Not sure up the ladder he was), and he felt he would've been better used elsewhere. But the fundamentals are so important for a good reason, and skimping out on them will lead to catastrophic results. Which I can understand Luther being oblivious to, since he's a mere human. Fulgrim, having the intelligence of a primarch and also being one of a handful of the species' most brilliant military minds...not so much.
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Nov 28, 2013 17:50
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Half way through Angel Exterminatus, and Fabius joins Erebus in the ranks of characthers i want to see beaten to death. A quick question tho: When did Eidolon loose his head? I don't recall any of the books where that is discussed.
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Nov 28, 2013 19:00
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UberJumper posted:
In the absolutely goddawful short story "The Reflection Crack'd". It's in the equally goddawful "The Primarchs" book. If you're considering reading it, go back to the discussion earlier in the thread about primarch rear end rape dildos . No, that isn't a joke.
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Nov 28, 2013 19:22
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Lead Psychiatry posted:Know I'm late to the Lion/Luther discussion but one thing that wasn't mentioned is the similarity between Lion'El sending Luther back to Caliban and Horus sending Fulgrim to overlook the Istvaan V defenses. Both Fulgrim and and Luther took it as an insult. But where Luther just quietly accepted, Fulgrim threw a bitchfit and had it explained why he was chosen. what book is this? also what book contains the most about Istvaan? both the drawing together and the slaughter on the planet. do i spoiler this? ?
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Nov 28, 2013 19:52
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Dog_Meat posted:In the absolutely goddawful short story "The Reflection Crack'd". It's in the equally goddawful "The Primarchs" book. Wait what. I read that story a few weeks ago, how did i miss him loosing his head.  I also love how Games Workshop tries so god drat hard to tip toe around Slannesh.
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Nov 28, 2013 19:58
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Waroduce posted:what book is this? also what book contains the most about Istvaan? both the drawing together and the slaughter on the planet. do i spoiler this? ? I want to say Galaxy in Flames, but can't recall exactly. But was very early on in the HH series and may have ended up either in Flight of the Eisenstein or Fulgrim. I'm not sure if you mean a novel or just any book in general but I'd imagine that Forgeworld HH2: Massacre book would probably provide the most information on the build up, the events of the battle, the armaments etc.
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Nov 28, 2013 21:16
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Galaxy in Flames contains the traitors purging themselves in preparation to set the ambush for the loyalist legions. Flight of the Einsenstein also witnesses the purge for a short time from a different perspective. Fulgrim features the actual ambush of full-chaos legions vs loyalist, and The First Heretic does a bit of it as well.
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Nov 28, 2013 21:22
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UberJumper posted:Wait what. I read that story a few weeks ago, how did i miss him loosing his head. It's ok. It's a good thing. It means that your brain is slowly removing that story from your memory. It was after Fulgrim decapitates Eidolon that Lucius analyses his form and thinks he can beat him. And yes, Galaxy in Flames is the dropsite massacre in the most detail, although mostly from the point of view of the Sons of Horus.It gets filled out from different perspectives in Fulgrim, First Heretic and Raven's Flight.
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Nov 29, 2013 09:27
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Wandered into 1d4chan and wondered something about Lucius. If he was killed by a pariah could he still revive? Seems like if a Gray Knight Blank he would be hosed as they are untouchable by the warp. Course I suppose Ravenor sort of muddied that by having his pariah get compromised by a daemon. So I suppose it could create a Gray Knight that has multiple personality disorder.
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Nov 29, 2013 12:04
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Easiest way for Lucius to die is via Tyranid. I'm sure thousands of Hormagaunts don't take joy or satisfaction in what they do, they're just see thing -> eat thing EDIT: Also he'd be covered by the Shadow In The Warp. Gravitas Shortfall fucked around with this message at 18:09 on Nov 29, 2013 |
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Nov 29, 2013 14:53
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EyeRChris posted:Wandered into 1d4chan and wondered something about Lucius. Grey Knights aren't untouchables, they are super-psychics. But yeah, I reckon if an untouchable offed Lucious it's likely that Slaanesh couldn't get to him. Slaanesh could probably just stick him in any old dude though.
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Nov 29, 2013 14:55
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Gravitas Shortfall posted:Easiest way for Lucius to die is via Tyranid. I'm sure thousands of Hormagaunts don't take joy or satisfaction in what they do, they're just see thing -> eat thing Hormugants might, actually. Now a Ripper Swarm, on the other hand, that would be the perfect way to end him. Or a Necron, I suppose.
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Nov 29, 2013 18:25
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Nerdfights about Goku beating Superman up in this thread.jng2058 posted:Hormugants might, actually. Now a Ripper Swarm, on the other hand, that would be the perfect way to end him. Or a Necron, I suppose. Lexicanium posted:Whenever his killer takes even the tiniest moment of enthusiasm, pleasure, or satisfaction from besting Lucius, they will begin to change into him. Lexicanium posted:Hormagaunts have a deadly instinctual ability to hunt that needs little direction from the Tyranid Hive Mind. They are so single-minded in hunting that they will ignore personal injury and tiredness until they have run down their quarry. However their extremely fast metabolism will always drive them to constantly seek out new victims. 'Gants are intelligent in a "clever girl" kind of way, but I doubt they're capable of feeling any emotions apart from hunger - and they're always hungry. 
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Nov 29, 2013 18:43
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Gravitas Shortfall posted:'Gants are intelligent in a "clever girl" kind of way, but I doubt they're capable of feeling any emotions apart from hunger - and they're always hungry. But if eating Lucius satisfies that hunger for even a moment then the Hormugant gets turned into Lucius. That's why I think you need to go with Rippers which are completely mindless and incapable of feeling anything at all. Or a basic Necron Warrior for the same reason.
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Nov 29, 2013 19:36
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jng2058 posted:But if eating Lucius satisfies that hunger for even a moment then the Hormugant gets turned into Lucius. That's why I think you need to go with Rippers which are completely mindless and incapable of feeling anything at all. But, but if the hive-mind feels joy?  After all, the rippers are pretty much its teeth.
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Nov 29, 2013 19:51
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jng2058 posted:But if eating Lucius satisfies that hunger for even a moment then the Hormugant gets turned into Lucius. But they're not being satisfied by besting him, just from eating meat. This is easily the nerdiest argument I've ever had. my dad posted:But, but if the hive-mind feels joy? A giant, hive-ship sized Lucius, floating serenely in the void. Alternate answer: Hive Fleet Fabulous. 
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Nov 29, 2013 20:18
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There is a difference between a sense of accomplishment and physical satiety. This should not be a concept that causes problems.
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Nov 29, 2013 20:46
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It's Chaos Warp Fuckery. Of course they'll take the slightest loophole to bring Lucius back. You think Slaanesh is going to consult the dictionary definition of "physical satiety"? No! He/She/It will say "hey, that Hormugant thought Lucius was tasty for a moment. Close enough! Have fun fighting your way outta the belly of the Hive Ship, pal!" That's why you need to kill him with something literally mindless. Rippers are your best bet from a 'Nid standpoint. Or maybe a Spore Mine or something. Better yet, some Necron Tomb Spider or some such. Or just jettison the fucker into deep space and let him float out there for all eternity. jng2058 fucked around with this message at 21:02 on Nov 29, 2013 |
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Nov 29, 2013 21:00
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The point behind Lucius's resurrection is that the Raven Guard who outfought him the first time did it without satisfaction - it's meant to needle him forever, and only a warrior like Sharrowkyn can truly kill him. So yeah, someone else could do it, if they were the right person.
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Nov 29, 2013 21:06
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Or land-mines.... Seriously, you are overthinking a throwaway line of fluff that's shakey foundations for the character that's been built on it.
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Nov 29, 2013 21:08
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Sharkie posted:It's something like, say you and your friend have a company that makes games. You've both produced a few games together, and have had a few thousand downloads of "Bass Fishing Sim." Then suddenly Peter Jackson swoops in on a helicopter and tells you he wants your company to produce the videogame version of The Hobbit: The Desolation of Smaug. You and your friend are both really excited to begin work on this, but one day, after a minor fuckup that affects nothing in the long term, you tell your friend "Hey, how about you let me take this fresh new Hobbit game, you can go work on maintaining the updates for our musty old bass fishing game. It's a core product, you know?" In that situation, there's no way your friend wouldn't take it badly and end up corrupting the fishing game with Chaos. That sure escalated quickly from a fishing game to the corruption of chaos. 
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Nov 29, 2013 21:44
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