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NIV3K posted:I think it would have sounded less weird if it was rerolling any 1's instead of 6's. That would be easier to remember as well. it would also make it way more powerful. Rerolling ones means you'll never Botch, ever.
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Nov 27, 2013 04:21
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Stallion Cabana posted:it would also make it way more powerful. True, forgot that was a thing.
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Nov 27, 2013 04:22
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I assume you reroll 6s rather than 1s so that it's still possible to botch, and so that expanded versions of the bonus can allow you to reroll 5s, 4s, 3s, etc. Usually, systems you're meant to try to optimize give you multiple, synergistic ways to enhance your actions that you can choose between and potentially stack - accuracy versus damage, damage versus critical hit rate, critical hit rate versus critical hit damage bonus, etcetera. So, "treat yourself like you were rolling 1d9+1 instead of 1d10" effect is a new way to enhance rolls that could have already enjoyed bonus dice, bonus successes, rerolls, etc. (Target number reductions are Sidereal-only for legacy reasons) The question is, was the core Exalted system so simplistic that it needed a new dimension in which dicepool quality could be increased or decreased? I'm dubious. Seems to me we've already got combat momentum or whatever it's called - although it is true that, for instance, weapon stats have been substantially condensed/simplified.
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Nov 27, 2013 04:24
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The first Sail charm reminds me a bit of this Sidereal charm rewrite, which I was always fond of. I like Charms that give a small batch of permanent effects.
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Nov 27, 2013 04:27
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Stallion Cabana posted:it would also make it way more powerful. See, if it was just, "You can no longer botch a Sail roll.", I think I'd like it better. It'd give a sense of well-practiced, supernatural competence, where completely loving something up is no longer a possibility you need to worry about.
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Nov 27, 2013 04:32
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BryanChavez posted:See, if it was just, "You can no longer botch a Sail roll.", I think I'd like it better. It'd give a sense of well-practiced, supernatural competence, where completely loving something up is no longer a possibility you need to worry about. Yeah, I think I'd much prefer "you can't botch" to "reroll 6s". It occurs to me that the apparent discrepancy between these Charms and the other ones we saw might just be a result of their being from different parts of trees. Maybe it's a common thing for Essence 1 starter Charms to give you a bevy of passive boosts integral to your archetype? Like there's some basic Melee charm that says you never fumble your weapon or embarrass yourself by getting it stuck in its sheath.
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Nov 27, 2013 04:34
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Kai Tave posted:On the other hand, the way they seem to be approaching the matter of Sail charms being niche and narrow is to sweeten them with all sorts of bonuses that are only sort of related to things to do with sailing in order to make them more appealing. "Have a Sail charm that gives you incredible balance, fear resistance, and sense of direction. No, you don't actually have to be sailing or doing anything nautical while you're at it." Like, those are nice and all but it kind of feels like you're being bribed into taking it. Well ideally I'd like the abilities to be trimmed down from twenty five into twenty or fifteen, but since that's not going to happen I think this is the best solution for the situation. I prefer that charms do what the ability does and not what someone thinks it's associated with because that leads to all kinds of crap. Also, variable xp cost on charms (similar to the Alchemical submodule system) to help with the really specific charms not being worth the xp cost.
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Nov 27, 2013 05:57
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I'm not even sure why botching as it exists should still be a thing. It's just a extra layer of math when counting dice, and most Exalts aren't likely to ever botch at their competencies. Of course, that might be a more interesting charm effect in that sense - a Melee charm that lets you ignore the botch penalty means you basically never seriously screw up, which feels like a very Solar thing to me. Edit: Bryan beat me to it.
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Nov 27, 2013 06:04
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Alien Rope Burn posted:most Exalts aren't likely to ever botch at their competencies. You only ever roll your competencies?
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Nov 27, 2013 07:36
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I know when I run games I take joy from making players roll things their characters are bad at.
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Nov 27, 2013 14:13
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I do that all the time too. It helps remind people sometimes that they need their circle-mates to help them. Not that that's all I make them do, but often after one story where the player succeeds a lot and they get kind of big-headed I'll include a roll or two they aren't that good at. It's not some kind of karmic thing or anything, I just think it helps foster bonds between the party.
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Nov 27, 2013 15:55
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I think it's fun to have to roll lots of different things. Ideally, there should be multiple opportunities for every ability to be useful in a story. In the Abyssals game I'm currently in, we've had gems like spies needing Linguistics to decode cryptography, needing Integrity to shake off visions from your past lives, and a tense Bureaucracy showdown with a Dynastic customs official. It encourages you to have the kind of breadth you'd expect to see on well-made characters instead of punishing people for not taking the "good" abilities.
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Nov 28, 2013 02:21
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The "bad" abilities can be very easily compensated for with a few simple choices. Investing in summoning, allies, or Compassion and a virtue-channel replenisher can easily substitute for those dots at a much more efficient xp-exchange. And who wants to spend 40-50xp so you can roll slightly higher at stuff that you might only roll once per story? What's so well-made about a character sheet with the dots splashed all over the place anyway?
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Nov 28, 2013 02:36
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Ithle01 posted:And who wants to spend 40-50xp so you can roll slightly higher at stuff that you might only roll once per story? You make ways to roll it often. If you invest heavily in a skill, you make it the tool you use to assault problems.
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Nov 28, 2013 03:05
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A_Raving_Loon posted:You make ways to roll it often. I think you misunderstood what I meant because that's my point exactly. Why divide the xp up among abilities you're terrible at so you can be mediocre at them instead of dropping the xp into something you use to brute force your problems. I wasn't saying don't invest in new avenues, I was saying that being strong at one thing is better than being weak at two because Exalted is definitely designed to favor specialists.
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Nov 28, 2013 09:01
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Ithle01 posted:I think you misunderstood what I meant because that's my point exactly. Why divide the xp up among abilities you're terrible at so you can be mediocre at them instead of dropping the xp into something you use to brute force your problems. I wasn't saying don't invest in new avenues, I was saying that being strong at one thing is better than being weak at two because Exalted is definitely designed to favor specialists. Arguably you might need some investment in an ability to implement a solution created by someone else or to recognize the problem for something that needs that ability in the first place.
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Nov 28, 2013 15:38
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Ithle01 posted:I think you misunderstood what I meant because that's my point exactly. Why divide the xp up among abilities you're terrible at so you can be mediocre at them instead of dropping the xp into something you use to brute force your problems. I wasn't saying don't invest in new avenues, I was saying that being strong at one thing is better than being weak at two because Exalted is definitely designed to favor specialists. Perhaps if we implemented some sort of system whereby it's more expensive to max a single trait than attain basic competence in several....
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Nov 28, 2013 17:21
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Unless you buy it with crosswise Initial-Progress-Shillings (Or "Moon Exp" as some call it) when Mars is in ascendance. So Stephen, can you tell us anything about how the new books are being organized and arranged internally? 2E suffered heavily from poor formatting making it hard to find important aspects of the system, are there any efforts devoted to improving that?
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Nov 28, 2013 18:03
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Stephenls posted:Perhaps if we implemented some sort of system whereby it's more expensive to max a single trait than attain basic competence in several.... That doesn't fix the basic problem. If a 5 is superior to a 3 and a 2, it's going to be superior to a 3, a 2, and a 2 because of the fundamental fact that you tend to use one skill at a time when you're taking action. Specialization's just as mandatory, it's just more annoying. And, of course, the scheme fails in the first place since Charms, the most post powerful character traits, retain flat costs, as does everything in chargen. Exalted is a point-buy game with lots of different traits and so it's always going to allow for situations in which someone has specialized themselves for something with no bearing whatsoever on the current scene. If you're not willing to cut down the skill list, the thing to do is to make sure that most skills (or at least the Charms of most skills) have some applicability to the big game systems that everyone tends to engage in regardless of their specialization, which seems to be going on with Sail, so that's cool. Ferrinus fucked around with this message at 18:52 on Nov 28, 2013 |
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Nov 28, 2013 18:40
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Stephenls posted:Perhaps if we implemented some sort of system whereby it's more expensive to max a single trait than attain basic competence in several.... Or ditch ability scores because it isn't 2001. edit: On a less snarky note, it is OK to have players roll things they are not good at, the problem comes in exalted where the difference between 'good at' and 'bad at' is astronomical. Exalted has 6 different states for ability scores and attribute scores (0-5, and possibly more besides that when you count specialties, charms, equipment, hearthstones etc.) when all you would ever really need is 3: Not good at. Good at. Great at. Ash Rose fucked around with this message at 20:36 on Nov 28, 2013 |
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Nov 28, 2013 20:24
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I mean, at this point I'm willing to forgive Exalted for not deleting Attributes and Abilities entirely, but claiming that Strength's fifth dot costing 10 more XP than Strength's third dot actually accomplishes anything is a little much. Being a generalist needs to be its own reward, such that you actually find yourself going "oh man, I wish I could trade a dot of my highest skill for a dot of my lowest" in some situations. If you're counting on someone pushing their glasses up the bridge of their nose as they calculate that it's more XP-efficient to buy up a low skill than a high one, then you're also opening the door for someone pushing their glasses up the bridge of their nose as they compute how many experience points per bonus points they get in each category during chargen, which helps nobody.
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Nov 28, 2013 20:43
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Ferrinus posted:I mean, at this point I'm willing to forgive Exalted for not deleting Attributes and Abilities entirely, but claiming that Strength's fifth dot costing 10 more XP than Strength's third dot actually accomplishes anything is a little much. Being a generalist needs to be its own reward, such that you actually find yourself going "oh man, I wish I could trade a dot of my highest skill for a dot of my lowest" in some situations. It clearly helps the person doing the computing...?
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Nov 28, 2013 20:44
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Stephenls posted:Perhaps if we implemented some sort of system whereby it's more expensive to max a single trait than attain basic competence in several.... So, how's that bp/xp thing going? Still two systems, one with flat and the other with scaling costs? Or how about ability/attribute xp costs scaling up as you go while charms cost a flat amount? Ithle01 fucked around with this message at 21:25 on Nov 28, 2013 |
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Nov 28, 2013 21:23
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Stephenls posted:Perhaps if we implemented some sort of system whereby it's more expensive to max a single trait than attain basic competence in several.... I'm pretty sure the system you have actually rewards people for buying Attribute 5 Ability 5 at character generation but you're not changing that because...
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Nov 29, 2013 01:34
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Stephenls posted:Perhaps if we implemented some sort of system whereby it's more expensive to max a single trait than attain basic competence in several.... That kind of system only works, though, if "basic competence" actually has meaning in a game about crazy kung fu Jesus. What you need is a system where it's possible to be a mid-range warrior (or talker, or sneaker, or whatever) without being utterly useless because the game mechanics are designed to challenge the dude who benches mountain ranges and can kung fu your grandma out of existence 70 years ago. Otherwise you're just creating a newbie trap. (Not saying you don't have such a system, of course, I haven't seen anything of Ex3--but the "versatility vs. focus" design dichotomy isn't just a character creation-side issue, and I don't see handling it effectively as one of the basic engine's strengths.)
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Nov 29, 2013 01:48
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I have found that the difference between "jack of all trades" and "jack poo poo of all trades" is often one of the play environment rather than strictly one of mechanical encouragement. Pass the same character sheets around different tables; you'll get fairly different results. I'm not saying that systems shouldn't bother trying to shore up the "balanced spread" option. It does require effort, and I think Exalted 2e did a poor job of it. But I really don't think that the Attribute+Ability with ascending costs for advancement is inherently going to suck at it. I think it can be made to not suck at it with fairly minimal effort. I would like somebody to name a system which does a "good" job at encouraging people to play a versatile character rather than a focused one. Really, I would like to see one so I can adopt it because I prefer to play versatile characters. So far the only satisfactory option I've seen is FATE, which gives you the option between either being exactly as specialized as everyone else in the group or shutting the gently caress up. That tends to keep down any arguments about being under- or over-powered.
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Nov 29, 2013 03:14
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Burning Wheel has a very elegant system of skill synergies which, when paired with its advancement system means that someone who diversifies can easily end up as potent as someone who specialized. When using a skill, each other skill you have which would reasonably benefit the action hands you a bonus. Skills improve through use, requiring greater numbers of more difficult actions to count towards advancement as they rise. After a point, it becomes easier to break into new skills that you can then combo into your actions than it is to try to push your best skills farther over the line. Your performance with these new skills is also evened out by being able to combo them with the ones you already have as you work to train them.
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Nov 29, 2013 03:30
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BW's skill system is also great because it encourages players to think of what they could do to earn higher difficulty tests for advancement, which makes them drive their own narrative more. It would work pretty well with Exalted since it would propel the demigod characters to greater achievements, follies and tragedies. You could even leave in point-buy, just restrict it to charms.
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Nov 29, 2013 03:42
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I think I suggested an untrained/trained/exceptional skill system way back in the first Exalted thread. If you collapsed traits from having 5 tiers to having 3 tiers I think you could smoothly implement scaling costs and/or skill pyramid-style prereqs in a way that was totally equivalent to the chargen math. You could even divide charms into basic/advanced/master if you were so inclined. Can anyone actually think of a time in which the low XP cost for entry-level skills persuaded them or their fellow players to diversify rather than specialize? I can't.
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Nov 29, 2013 04:11
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The thing about Exalted is that it's a game that should encourage you to specialize. You should want to be the ISP, because the sort of characters Exalted seeks to emulate aren't generalists. Ferrinus posted:You could even divide charms into basic/advanced/master if you were so inclined. I've always thought Charms should have a non-flat XP cost, pretty much because of the exact thing you see in the preview; a bunch of unrelated, fiddly bonuses stacked onto a single Charm so it's arguably worth your 10 XP or whatever.
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Nov 29, 2013 05:02
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Ferrinus posted:Can anyone actually think of a time in which the low XP cost for entry-level skills persuaded them or their fellow players to diversify rather than specialize? I can't. Yeah, I see a lot of people in Exalted buy up a 1- or 2- or even 3-dot Ability out of left field, actually (most memorable: hack-n-slash Dawn delving into Occult for Sorcery and also because the world was crazy). But, then, of course, they're left finding it useless because Charms are a flat-rate, and they can't get the benefit they want from the Ability without a huge XP sink, even if they bought up the Ability dots themselves. And that thought prevents this sort of thing from happening more, I'm sure. As far as Burning Wheel, the only BW system I'm familiar with is Mouse Guard, which I'm not sure functions as a stellar example, because whatever the system may encourage, I just never encountered a GM who rewarded the skill of apiary management as much as the skill of say fighting off giant snakes. I do know that in that system, a specialist was basically not much better at his job than a dabbler. Which I do suppose encourages versatility, but if my experience is accurate, it does so at the cost of punishing specialization, and we don't exactly want to do that, because a character with a driving focus should certainly at least be playable in a game like Exalted.
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Nov 29, 2013 05:05
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Tulul posted:The thing about Exalted is that it's a game that should encourage you to specialize. You should want to be the ISP, because the sort of characters Exalted seeks to emulate aren't generalists. That's true. They're not necessarily what you would think of as 'generalists', because the sort of characters that Exalted seeks to emulate are fantastic at everything. Conan being a prime example.
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Nov 29, 2013 05:09
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realbrickwall posted:Yeah, I see a lot of people in Exalted buy up a 1- or 2- or even 3-dot Ability out of left field, actually (most memorable: hack-n-slash Dawn delving into Occult for Sorcery and also because the world was crazy). But, then, of course, they're left finding it useless because Charms are a flat-rate, and they can't get the benefit they want from the Ability without a huge XP sink, even if they bought up the Ability dots themselves. And that thought prevents this sort of thing from happening more, I'm sure. Oh, no, Exalted definitely makes it esay to grab dots in an Ability you suddenly want. But, like... did your hack-n-slash Dawn buy Occult 3 instead of Melee 5 because the Occult was just so much cheaper per dot? I'm all for Abilities being easy to increase across the board.
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Nov 29, 2013 05:18
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Ferrinus posted:Oh, no, Exalted definitely makes it esay to grab dots in an Ability you suddenly want. But, like... did your hack-n-slash Dawn buy Occult 3 instead of Melee 5 because the Occult was just so much cheaper per dot? In my experience as a exalted player/ST for more time than I care to admit, players tended to max out stats they cared about to 5 at chargen and the only way I could get combat to be manageable was to have gentleman's agreements about dice-pool sizes.
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Nov 29, 2013 08:22
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Yeah, the thing is, a 5 is good whether it costs 30 XP or 60 XP. In fact, if it costs 60 XP it's arguably even better because it means it's much less likely that any of your rivals have one. Scaling XP costs don't discourage maxing the stats you plan to use all the time, they just increase exclusivity, because it's that much harder to get up to scratch in something you haven't been obsessively investing in from day one. If every skill and attribute dot was equally cheap, people would still mostly be buying charms and only increasing skills they found themselves caring about. If it was super important to you to limit how many maxed traits a god drat Solar exalt had you could institute an after-the-fact "you may only have one 5 for every dot of Essence" rule or something, but... why? Why bother?
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Nov 29, 2013 15:54
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Ferrinus posted:Oh, no, Exalted definitely makes it esay to grab dots in an Ability you suddenly want. Unless, god forbid, you're a Lunar. Then you have the fantastic option of increasing your Survival.
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Dec 1, 2013 06:51
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Survival starts to become awfully silly once you have superhuman senses, can outrun any animal, and survive any disease or poison. "So this teaches me what to leave around for the villagers, I guess?"
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Dec 1, 2013 07:10
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You roll Survival to track people, so you still need it to deploy your superhuman senses in certain situations, I guess. Seriously, though: every skill dot costs as much as the first. Will this cause players to have more 5s than before? No. Would players having more 5s than before even be bad? No. I think the instinct to punish people for buying their skills up high is an atavistic instinct inherited from the oWoD where if you had more than two dots in anything you'd just better have had the three pages single spaced of backstory to justify it, buddy.
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Dec 1, 2013 07:44
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I've always thought there was a pretty serious disconnect between the descriptions of abilities in the 2e Core Book and what those abilities could actually do. It says buying up to Melee 5 will have you taking out dudes while blindfolded and standing on one foot and Bureaucracy 5 will let you solve the problem of corruption in the Realm, but really, there are other things that need to happen for a character to actually have that level of competence. Mainly attributes, but also probably some relevant charms and even other abilities. The way it has been, Exalted encourages players to become iconically amazing at a few things when they make their character. This isn't necessarily a bad thing; Leverage tells you to pick two things to be amazing at and then makes you merely good at most other things. Wulin has you choose one dedicated skill that is how you achieve Wuxia Kung Fu skills. My issue with Exalted, though, is that if you want to be extremely good at any ability you're encouraged to buy it up all the way at character creation instead of getting better at it over time. poo poo, I wouldn't care that much about BP/XP if scaling costs were eliminated, because scaling costs gently caress with your dot placement in addition to your BP expenditures. I think Ferrinus is on to something when he mentions the roots of Storyteller, because in Exalted it doesn't really make sense to not encourage characters to train at least some of their core skills higher in play. Essence and training times also have huge issues. Exalts shouldn't have GURPS-level training times for getting better at poo poo. I'd argue anything you have as "caste" or "favored" should be able to increase instantly. Emphasize the fact that not only are you good at poo poo, you're getting better all the time. I'd consider allowing it with Charms as well, as developing a new technique or stratagem in the heat of the moment is the kind of thing that makes Exalted what they are.
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Dec 1, 2013 11:35
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MiltonSlavemasta posted:I'd consider allowing it with Charms as well, as developing a new technique or stratagem in the heat of the moment is the kind of thing that makes Exalted what they are. I think this is one of the most common Exalted house rules around - I know I've happily had PCs buy Ox-Body Technique to stay alive during combat, after the damage roll!
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