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The only thing that really matters in TD is becoming a better writer. You do that by putting in a story, and if it's poo poo people tell you it's poo poo. If it's good people get jealous and tell you it's poo poo. At the end, if you stick with it, you get better. I've seen several people get way better, and even I've gotten marginally better. It really helps to just produce something every week and put it out there and have people give you feedback. For free! But yes, it's totally a trap. We like to lure in new people so we can laugh at their awful writing. And then watch them get better and secretly curse their names when they beat us.
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Nov 25, 2013 22:43
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ravenkult posted:Sounds like you're luring me into a loving trap. I wouldn't worry. Apparently TD only uses nerf bats these days.
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Nov 25, 2013 22:49
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Stuporstar is like the dad who "goes out for cigarettes" when you're 7 and then shows up on your front porch when you're 19 to complain that you don't go to church anymore.
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Nov 25, 2013 22:53
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crabrock posted:Stuporstar is like the dad who "goes out for cigarettes" when you're 7 and then shows up on your front porch when you're 19 to complain that you don't go to church anymore. But also you have been going to church the entire time. I really don't know where the idea that Thunderdome has become some kind of hugbox is coming from. I don't see anyone pulling punches in there.
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Nov 25, 2013 22:57
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I'm convinced, but apprehensive.
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Nov 25, 2013 22:57
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Stuporstar posted:I wouldn't worry. Apparently TD only uses nerf bats these days. Let's find out. See you in there for another thousand words of evisceration. I'll let you pick the prompt. Who knows, maybe you'll beat me this time? You won't.
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Nov 25, 2013 23:01
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I've been following this whole argument and don't even know what the argument is.
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Nov 25, 2013 23:01
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Symptomless Coma posted:500w / Borgesian thought experiment seriously not trying to be a dick but I don't know what else to call it / a comp for under-500w fiction, and a mag here in London called Cadaverine, but I really don't think that's what they're looking for. This is pretty legit! I know genre short story markets quite well, and my inclination is that you'd have a real shot at selling this piece if it were, unfortunately, ~1500 words longer. Which is a shame, because it's sort of an imagery piece as it stands, and if it gets longer it might only add dead weight.
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Nov 25, 2013 23:18
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Dr. Kloctopussy posted:But also you have been going to church the entire time. I really don't know where the idea that Thunderdome has become some kind of hugbox is coming from. I don't see anyone pulling punches in there. The idea is coming from all these people yelling, "gently caress you, grandpa!" because I dared to give someone advice--that actually helped them--but I gave the advice in an aggressive way (in the manner of the old TD kayfabe), so apparently I'm a big meanie poopie head, or some poo poo. So fine, I'm a big meany poopie head. You don't want my advice anymore, I won't give it. Do whatever the gently caress you all want.
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Nov 25, 2013 23:22
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Stuporstar posted:The idea is coming from all these people yelling, "gently caress you, grandpa!" because I dared to give someone advice--that actually helped them--but I gave the advice in an aggressive way (in the manner of the old TD kayfabe), so apparently I'm a big meanie poopie head, or some poo poo. So fine, I'm a big meany poopie head. You don't want my advice anymore, I won't give it. Do whatever the gently caress you all want. But the only person who questioned why you were giving advice is a random guy who has posted in Thunderdome like once. Everyone else agreed that a huge swath of dialogue wasn't a great idea, but that he could still try it if he wanted to. And if he did and it sucked he would get called out on it. Sebmojo even agreed to the flash rule you suggested. No one said you're a big meanie poopie head at all. No one said stop giving advice, either, but do whatever the gently caress you want.
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Nov 25, 2013 23:52
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sebmojo posted:Let's find out. See you in there for another thousand words of evisceration. I'll let you pick the prompt. Who knows, maybe you'll beat me this time? No, dude. I need to let this one go. I need to let Thunderdome go. I handed over the reigns to you guys a while ago. It's yours now.
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Nov 26, 2013 00:07
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Stuporstar posted:No, dude. I need to let this one go. I need to let Thunderdome go. I handed over the reigns to you guys a while ago. It's yours now. 
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Nov 26, 2013 00:47
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systran posted:I've been following this whole argument and don't even know what the argument is.   I don't even know what or who is getting offended by what or why anymore, I thought we were just trying to improve our writing not get our emotions unbalanced by words on the Internet, is this real life.
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Nov 26, 2013 00:54
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Guy A: How do I do X? Guy B: X is a bad idea, try Y. Guy C & D: I think Y is better too, but there's no reason not to give X a shot because it's a good way to learn. Guy B: *Misinterprets and gets mad* Literally that is all that happened. Think you were getting the wrong end of the stick Stuporstar, because I can't read the original replies and find the words you're finding 
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Nov 26, 2013 02:11
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Symptomless Coma posted:500w / Borgesian thought experiment seriously not trying to be a dick but I don't know what else to call it / a comp for under-500w fiction, and a mag here in London called Cadaverine, but I really don't think that's what they're looking for. Try dailysciencefiction.com - they do fantasy as well, which I think this would count as, and they actively seek sub 1000 words pieces. edit: you'll need to edit out the link here though - they're strict on no prior online publication
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Nov 26, 2013 19:28
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SuBeCo posted:Try dailysciencefiction.com - they do fantasy as well, which I think this would count as, and they actively seek sub 1000 words pieces. Thanks! I will do that - and Battuta, thanks for asking but I think your instincts are right; it's not something you could add a bit to without adding a lot to. Or becoming Italo Calvino. ...and on the Thunderdome thing, I'm not even sure exactly what this is about so I don't know why I got involved, but to me the TD contract is - we'll definitely encourage you to go crazy and try something new (I mean, the flash rules hardly allow for anything else!), and we'll definitely tell you what's wrong with it as directly as we can. It's certainly helped me, long may it continue.
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Nov 26, 2013 21:45
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Okay, so I've made a few book requests at my local public library and now I have this reading list to tackle: - The Shining by Stephen King - Ender's Game by Orson Scott Card - A Clockwork Orange by Anthony Burgess - Slaughterhouse-Five by Kurt Vonnegut - I Am Legend by Richard Matheson I am primarily interested in exploring Horror and Sci-Fi. I am also really, really interested in studying writing that really digs deep into the reader and creeps them out with psychologically/ethically/philosophically disturbing questions and prose. Also, good writing that realistically and engagingly depicts mental states and thoughts when confronted with brutality, violence, (meaningless) death, war, torture, madness, trauma, loss of innocence or idealism, loss, hopelessness and despair, etc is a huge plus. Any recommendations for which book I should start with? I think I'm most partial to reading A Clockwork Orange or Slaughterhouse-Five first. I've never read anything by the above writers, by the way. [e]: Also, yes, this is basically Babby's First Reading List.  I read fiction very rarely, definitely changing that now.
Teriyaki Koinku fucked around with this message at 17:43 on Nov 29, 2013 |
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Nov 29, 2013 17:32
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Based on your list, skip Ender's Game. It's not good writing.
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Nov 29, 2013 17:41
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I Am Legend is arguably the easiest and the shortest, so start with that. Slaughterhouse is good reading, Clockwork Orange can be incredibly difficult if this is your first reading list, especially as it uses its very own vocabulary and you may have to refer to the glossary several times. King has many deriders, but he has an easy to read style. I would suggest you also take a look at King's On Writing. On your criteria for reading, are you primarily looking at genre fiction? Ray Bradbury and Arthur C Clarke have some good ones, so start with the short stories to see if you like them.
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Nov 29, 2013 18:17
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The Saddest Rhino posted:I Am Legend is arguably the easiest and the shortest, so start with that. Slaughterhouse is good reading, Clockwork Orange can be incredibly difficult if this is your first reading list, especially as it uses its very own vocabulary and you may have to refer to the glossary several times. King has many deriders, but he has an easy to read style. I would suggest you also take a look at King's On Writing. That's a good point on A Clockwork Orange. I really want my first few fiction readings to be relatively easy to read (not a deal-breaker, of course) and accessible without sacrificing quality so as to make fiction reading more of a regular enjoyable habit I just do normally like playing video games rather than something to "prepare" for. Other posters have explained the meaning of genre fiction already but I'm still not clear on what makes something not genre. So... I suppose I am looking primarily for genre fiction, specifically Horror and Sci-fi. Short stories and novellas I think would be a good strategy for me for habit building and for dipping my toes into what I would want to focus on as a writer in my own stories, as you've suggested. Basically consider me a pseudo-Freshman Creative Writing major. Teriyaki Koinku fucked around with this message at 19:03 on Nov 29, 2013 |
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Nov 29, 2013 18:28
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Robert E. Howard is the hidden gem of genre fiction. His prose can be quite purple and over the top at times and he was an awful racist, but personally I think he's on a short list of the greatest pulp fiction writers of all time. His writing, when it isn't veering into self parody, has an energy and flow to it that is unmatched.
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Nov 29, 2013 18:44
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TheRamblingSoul posted:I am also really, really interested in studying writing that really digs deep into the reader and creeps them out with psychologically/ethically/philosophically disturbing questions and prose. Also, good writing that realistically and engagingly depicts mental states and thoughts when confronted with brutality, violence, (meaningless) death, war, torture, madness, trauma, loss of innocence or idealism, loss, hopelessness and despair, etc is a huge plus. Dostoevsky's Crime and Punishment. Kafka's The Castle. Tolstoy's The Death of Ivan Illytch. Hemingway's A Farewell to Arms and For Whom The Bell Tolls are both interesting depictions of men confronted with the realities of war, though somewhat distant from what you've requested. Martin Amis' Other People, certainly. None of these is short, none of these is easy, and all of these will illustrate different ways of conveying narrative while also (sometimes loosely) exploring the themes you've mentioned. Note that none of these is "genre", per se, but my opinion is that you should be reading broadly, in addition to reading deeply into your chosen genre(s). Synthesizing ideas drawn from outside your genre into your genre can often produce very interesting results.
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Nov 29, 2013 18:45
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Erogenous Beef posted:Hemingway's ... For Whom The Bell Tolls are both interesting depictions of men confronted with the realities of war Maybe it was because I was a junior in high school, but I actually read For Whom the Bell Tolls for my junior English term paper and remember finding it incredibly dry and boring. To high school-me, basically nothing happens for the majority of the book while the anti-fascist resistance hides out in the foothills of Spain (apart from some implicit "earth-moving" sex) until the very end when they blow up a bridge and people die with a cliffhanger ending. I could give it a re-read and probably appreciate it better now, though. [e]: And yeah, definitely wanting to read broadly to dip my toes in different waters, so to speak. Really going for exposure to different ways of conveying narrative at the moment, like you mentioned, to figure out what makes good writing good and to find my own voice as a writer. [e2]: For further reference, I loved the hell out of 1984 and Brave New World in high school which I think had a pretty big (albeit indirect) impact on what I wanted to study later in college (International Relations). I have a soft-spot for poli-sci heavy dystopian science fiction.  The Jungle, too, even though the last dozen or so pages is basically Upton Sinclair getting up on his soapbox to preach about socialism (not that I mind the political message, I'm somewhat of a nascent socialist myself, just speaking from a "good writing" standpoint). On a tangent, am I the only one who gets unreasonably irritated that people seem to only remember The Jungle for depicting unsanity meat factories but never talk about how lovely raw capitalism is in the book and its call for socialism, which is what the book is actually about? It's almost as if nobody actually read the book, including Teddy Roosevelt. Were people just that blinded to the realities of capitalism versus belief in the system or what? (Yes, I had these same questions when I first read it in high school too) Teriyaki Koinku fucked around with this message at 19:23 on Nov 29, 2013 |
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Nov 29, 2013 18:52
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blue squares posted:Based on your list, skip Ender's Game. It's not good writing. I will fight you. Ender's Game is fine writing. Card has a ton of experience playwrighting and it shows. The story is dialogue heavy, but it's a great story. Mercedes fucked around with this message at 19:08 on Nov 29, 2013 |
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Nov 29, 2013 19:02
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TheRamblingSoul posted:Maybe it was because I was a junior in high school, but I actually read For Whom the Bell Tolls for my junior English term paper and remember finding it incredibly dry and boring. To high school-me, basically nothing happens for the majority of the book while the anti-fascist resistance hides out in the foothills of Spain (apart from some implicit "earth-moving" sex) until the very end when they blow up a bridge and people die with a cliffhanger ending. Possibly. Hemingway is something of an acquired taste, one which I happen to enjoy and plenty of other folks despise. The reason I listed two Hemingway novels is that his style of writing is far down into "spare realism" territory. The surface action only illustrates "what" happens, and the reader is left to work out implications and motivations. This is a tool for your toolbox. For modern writing, you can't go down that road very far before people find your stuff difficult to read, or "dry and boring." 21st-century readers are used to things like free indirect speech and narratorial intrusions on otherwise close-third/first-person POVs. They prefer their themes, actions and consequences to be more visible in the surface text.
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Nov 29, 2013 19:10
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The Saddest Rhino posted:I Am Legend is arguably the easiest and the shortest, so start with that. Slaughterhouse is good reading, Clockwork Orange can be incredibly difficult if this is your first reading list, especially as it uses its very own vocabulary and you may have to refer to the glossary several times. King has many deriders, but he has an easy to read style. I would suggest you also take a look at King's On Writing. If you're looking at genre short stories, I'd actually suggest turning an eye to more modern writers. There's been a remarkable eruption of good short fiction in the field in the past ten/twenty years. I'm not immediately coming up with any authors that fit the themes you're after (this aimed at RamblingSoul) but I'm confident they exist. This would also have the advantage of getting some women on your to-read list, which, especially in genre, I think is really important. The discourse of 'who's who in SF/F' has been remarkably effective at erasing some really, really important women authors.
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Nov 29, 2013 19:39
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General Battuta posted:If you're looking at genre short stories, I'd actually suggest turning an eye to more modern writers. There's been a remarkable eruption of good short fiction in the field in the past ten/twenty years. I'm not immediately coming up with any authors that fit the themes you're after (this aimed at RamblingSoul) but I'm confident they exist. I definitely understand the need to read more female authors. My girlfriend is recommending Oryx and Crake by Margaret Atwood for creepy/disturbing good writing. Isn't Atwood a good reference for good female-written sci-fi in general?
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Nov 29, 2013 20:21
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TheRamblingSoul posted:I definitely understand the need to read more female authors. Ursula Le Guin is the grand dame of female fantasy writer, A Wizard of Earthsea is a good place to start because it's a stone classic. CJ Cherryh is brutally good and very under-rated - she's probably one of the biggest influences on my style, including my regrettable addiction to comma splicing. She writes gritty but intricate psychologically dense fantasy and sci-fi, try the Morgaine trilogy, Chanurs Venture or Downbelow Station. On the male side, Joe Abercrombie is good too, his best is probably The Heroes. Clive Barker is a decent stylist in the horror genre, from memory; maybe Weaveworld? Also Michael Moorcock, though his pulp stuff is fast and crappy as a rule.
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Nov 29, 2013 20:34
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for non-genre "war is hell" I'm gonna have to go with one of the best books ever written: Catch-22. It also helps that it is an amazingly fun read.
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Nov 29, 2013 20:50
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TheRamblingSoul posted:I am primarily interested in exploring Horror and Sci-Fi. I am also really, really interested in studying writing that really digs deep into the reader and creeps them out with psychologically/ethically/philosophically disturbing questions and prose. Also, good writing that realistically and engagingly depicts mental states and thoughts when confronted with brutality, violence, (meaningless) death, war, torture, madness, trauma, loss of innocence or idealism, loss, hopelessness and despair, etc is a huge plus. I recommend The Forever War, and to a lesser extent (just based on your themes, not the quality of work), Old Man's War. I'll also go on on a limb and say the Hunger Games also explores these themes, if you're looking for shorter reads. As people have a lot of the book stuff covered, if you play video games, I highly, highly recommend Spec Ops: The Line, a game well known and well regarded for its exploration of the themes you're looking for.
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Nov 29, 2013 21:02
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Seconding the recommendation of Cherryh's Morgaine books--there are four, though Exile's Gate fits oddly with the rest. Reading Downbelow Station felt like grinding through concrete, but I had better luck with Cyteen. Lois McMaster Bujold is an award-winning SF writer and may be worth a look, particularly her novella "The Mountains of Mourning." Octavia Butler is another name to note: her Xenogenesis series explores human life after aliens have salvaged our species from its own wreckage. You might also enjoy Shirley Jackson's The Haunting of Hill House. I remember it as psychological rather than monster or gore horror, and Stephen King thinks very highly of it. Kaishai fucked around with this message at 01:09 on Nov 30, 2013 |
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Nov 29, 2013 21:04
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Walamor posted:I recommend The Forever War, And I. Incredibly readable, and heartbreaking but in a cold, matter-of-fact way. Not so much "war is hell" as "peace is hell".
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Nov 29, 2013 22:37
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General Battuta posted:If you're looking at genre short stories, I'd actually suggest turning an eye to more modern writers. There's been a remarkable eruption of good short fiction in the field in the past ten/twenty years. I'm not immediately coming up with any authors that fit the themes you're after (this aimed at RamblingSoul) but I'm confident they exist. I can think of three reliable ways to find decent, modern, sci-fi and horror short fiction. There will likely be some overlap between the stories you find using these methods--and those might be the best ones to check out? 1) Annual awards. For sci-fi, Hugo and Nebula are the big ones. Bram Stoker for horror. There are tons more, google can help you find them if you aren't finding enough in the history of these three. Many also publish a list of nominees, which will give you more options to look at than just the winner. 2) Best-of anthologies. There are several annual best-of anthologies, such as The Year's Best Science Fiction. Goodreads and google are good places to start looking for anthologies that appeal to you. I don't know of any that are considered "the best," so just look around. 3) Magazines. This is where the stories from the above to categories are originally published (usually). So they will have more stories, but also a wider range of quality. On the other hand, many of the magazines have a certain "feel," and if you find one that especially appeals to you, it might be consistently "better" in your opinion than award-winners or the ones picked for anthologies. A pretty good place to start, at least for Sci-fi/fantasy, is with the list of Science Fiction and Fantasy Writers of America Qualifying Markets list, which can be found here: http://www.sfwa.org/about/join-us/sfwa-membership-requirements/#shortfiction Many of these magazines have a selection of stories available for free online, so you can sample them without committing to a subscription.
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Nov 29, 2013 23:56
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I don't really trust Stokers. I really liked Years Best Dark Fantasy anthologies though, those are really good. Better than Years Best Horror.
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Nov 30, 2013 01:00
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The Talent of the Room.quote:Before any issues of style, content, or form can be addressed, the fundamental
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Dec 3, 2013 03:35
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Dr. Kloctopussy posted:I can think of three reliable ways to find decent, modern, sci-fi and horror short fiction. There will likely be some overlap between the stories you find using these methods--and those might be the best ones to check out? Yeah, seconding short stories as a method for sampling of great genre fiction -- short works are also good for getting to know new authors and styles without committing to 400 page books to do so. I think anyone interested in horror will especially benefit from short fiction, as many of the authors considered to be horror's most influential contributors (Lovecraft, Bradbury, James, Pierce, Poe, Ellison, Jackson, Barker, King...) either worked primarily in shorter formats or made their names that way. I've heard short fiction described as horror's natural format, and you can find some surprising things there. (George RR Martin actually became well-known first through his dark SF and horror shorts and novellas.) Another great thing about these types of anthologies is that they all begin with introductions that discuss the genre, how it's evolved, and what makes it tick, and most of them also provide author introductions that talk about the writer's body of work. I recommend in particular: The Dark Descent http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/23793.The_Dark_Descent?from_search=true Great Tales of Terror and the Supernatural (older stuff, so you might be more interested in The Dark Descent, but still a classic) http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/137763.Great_Tales_of_Terror_and_the_Supernatural The Weird: A Compendium of Strange and Dark Stories: http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/12344319-the-weird?from_search=true The Year's Best Fantasy and Horror, 1988-2008: http://www.goodreads.com/series/50217-the-year-s-best-fantasy-and-horror Crisco Kid fucked around with this message at 01:36 on Dec 5, 2013 |
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Dec 5, 2013 01:04
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I'm reading through Slaugterhouse-Five and enjoying it so far, but it does bring something to mind: Do you have to be gregarious to be a good storyteller? I can easily imagine Vonnegut sitting next to me telling the story, it feels very clear and organic. It's like I can imagine hearing the good storyteller in person through the text. As for me, I love making stories but have difficulty telling them. In other words, I'm pretty shy and find it awkward and unpleasant to tell mundane stories about my life that other people seem to do naturally in conversation. Could this have an impact on my ability to tell stories on the written page or is it like comparing apples to oranges? Teriyaki Koinku fucked around with this message at 22:13 on Dec 5, 2013 |
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Dec 5, 2013 22:11
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I think there's probably some correlation, sure. Making stories is one thing; telling them takes the belief that your audience wants to hear what you have to say, so it takes at least a little social bravery, and I think that holds for both speech and print. But I don't think you have to be gregarious to be a good story-teller. There are way too many authors of the recluse variety (ie, misanthropic louts with writing talent, eg Lovecraft) for that to hold true. That said: I find that a lot of my favorite contemporary writers (Diaz, Palahnuik) have strong voices in their writing, and I think strong voice comes from an open personality. But you certainly don't need one to be a good writer.
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Dec 5, 2013 22:41
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TheRamblingSoul posted:I'm reading through Slaugterhouse-Five and enjoying it so far, but it does bring something to mind: Salinger is famous for being a recluse, and plenty of people think he told good stories, so it's not an absolute requirement. (I'm sure there are plenty of other examples, too, Salinger is just the first to come to my mind.) When you write, you are removed from the social aspect. No one is sitting next you and responding to what you say. You are probably not telling mundane stories of your life. On the other hand, think about why don't you like telling stories in person. The feeling that real stories are mundane is more likely to hurt your writing than social awkwardness. Stories are about people and are read by people. As a writer, you have to at least be interested in people, even if you don't particularly like them. You have to be willing to understand them, see what makes them tick, imagine and manipulate their emotions. There are huge differences between doing that socially and doing that through writing, of course, but many of the root concepts are the same.
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Dec 5, 2013 22:46
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It's not a big deal, I wouldn't worry about it. Besides, I'd say there are far more introverted writers than extroverted ones. There is space in fiction writing for all kinds - very considered and formal styles, frenetic, casual. Don't they say one of the most important steps to success is to not compare yourself to others? I'll also throw a disagreement out there while I'm at it. I don't think an interest in emotions or people is a prerequisite to telling a good story. I've read books by people who are clearly very far from having a grip on how people think which are still great. One of the most interesting books ever written, Starmaker by Olaf Stapledon, is so far removed from everyday human interaction it is essentially devoid of any normal humanity. 'Individuals' almost have no role in the plot at all. Anything is possible~ Follow your dreams~~
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Dec 5, 2013 23:23
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