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Rookersh posted:Though I find it strange you fight Szass Tamm considering the Spellplague hadn't happened yet. Cythereal posted:You do realize how old these games are and what BG1 in particular was meant to evoke, right? Both for DnD and CRPGs at that time, blindsiding players and making them think carefully about how to approach something were par for the course. And I agree we should avoid having the thread degenerate into a D&D edition war.
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Nov 30, 2013 17:31
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Cythereal posted:or moving the games into 3.5E rules. Ugh, no. I've never played PnP D&D, but what I've learned from the few 3E based CRPGs I've played is that, a. tinkering with your character build is really fun, and b. actually playing the characters is really loving boring. AD&D rules are like Dota: not intuitive in the slightest, completetely arbitrary, ridiculously complex and drat fun. In 3E, your character build matter far too much. It does not make for a very interesting gameplay, when the most important decisions you make are on the level up screen. verybad fucked around with this message at 17:44 on Nov 30, 2013 |
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Nov 30, 2013 17:39
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MrTheDevious posted:Goddamn this game is so huge. Every time I think my quest log is starting to empty out a little, I run into 20 more. I'm normally a massively anti-sidequest kinda guy...even Skyrim I just did the main quest then thieves/assassins guild stuff and was done. Something about BG2 though, I can't stop. I feel like I'm going to be really really sad once I finally finish everything and my first playthrough is over I'm so envious of you! Also about the dnd edition chat; as someone who's only connection to the dnd rules are crpgs I find the 3-3.5 edition rules way easier to understand. Also I enjoy the feats, and skills system as it makes the character development lot more interesting. For me really enhanced edition of BG2 would use v3.5 rules.
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Nov 30, 2013 17:41
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verybad posted:A frustrating mechanic is not necessarily a bad one. Dark Souls is a massively frustrating experience, but also a brilliant one. No other (single player) game I've played has had that same feeling of achievement when you make it through a difficult area and finally beat the boss that has been grinding you to paste for the last two hours.
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Nov 30, 2013 17:46
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Zilkin posted:I'm so envious of you! The biggest problem with 3.5e is that it was designed with intentional pitfalls for newer players to fall into. The Toughness feat is probably the most obvious one of those.
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Nov 30, 2013 17:47
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Emong posted:The biggest problem with 3.5e is that it was designed with intentional pitfalls for newer players to fall into. The Toughness feat is probably the most obvious one of those. 2E has its share of pitfalls - which I rather doubt are any more intentional than 3.5's - for new players. The wonky mechanics of dual-classing, for example. It's all down to personal taste. There are adherents of every edition and rules variation that's ever been made.
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Nov 30, 2013 17:51
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If I beat Watchers Keep in SoA will I be able to beat it again in ToB? If I don't beat Watchers Keep in SoA, just progress toward level 4, will that progress be saved in ToB or do I have to do it all over from the beginning?
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Nov 30, 2013 17:56
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jBrereton posted:It's a matter of taste, but you can always not save except in very specific circumstances, or not Rest or whatever. That is an option available to you. Feel free to do that, and let the rest of us play something that isn't explicitly designed to gently caress the player off until they've played the same section ten times to get it "right". I don't know why we're discussing check point based saves in BG2 but it is seven kinds of retarded. Dark Souls is designed from the ground up with checkpoint saves in mind and thus it is a good thing there. Baldurs Gate is not. That's basically all there is to say on this hypothetical. Captain Oblivious fucked around with this message at 18:13 on Nov 30, 2013 |
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Nov 30, 2013 17:59
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Cythereal posted:2E has its share of pitfalls - which I rather doubt are any more intentional than 3.5's - for new players. The wonky mechanics of dual-classing, for example. It's all down to personal taste. There are adherents of every edition and rules variation that's ever been made. No, I mean 3.5e was designed specifically to not explain the uses of feats, which is where all its pitfalls come from.
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Nov 30, 2013 18:06
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Emong posted:No, I mean 3.5e was designed specifically to not explain the uses of feats, which is where all its pitfalls come from. Congratulations. You found a dumb design decision in a DnD rule change/variation/update. Can we stop the edition bitching now?
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Nov 30, 2013 18:11
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TjyvTompa posted:If I beat Watchers Keep in SoA will I be able to beat it again in ToB? If I don't beat Watchers Keep in SoA, just progress toward level 4, will that progress be saved in ToB or do I have to do it all over from the beginning? Your progress will remain. They're the exact same areas that you access from either SoA or ToB.
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Nov 30, 2013 18:21
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Captain Oblivious posted:I don't know why we're discussing check point based saves in BG2 but it is seven kinds of retarded. Dark Souls is designed from the ground up with checkpoint saves in mind and thus it is a good thing there. Baldurs Gate is not. Dark Souls is possibly the worst possible example of checkpoint based saves being good just because it's about the ONLY game that's ever pulled off checkpoint saves being fun instead of a frustrating, horrible mechanic. I'd have quit BG an hour in at best if it didn't have free saving
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Nov 30, 2013 18:28
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Emong posted:No, I mean 3.5e was designed specifically to not explain the uses of feats, which is where all its pitfalls come from. It is a lot like perks in Fallout and I kinda like that kind of game design. Well, okay maybe the feat system is kinda dumb, but there are so many things about 3.5 edition that is just easier and better. No THAC0 for instance. I also am not in a big favor of balanced game design that 4th edition did. I like glass cannons and sturdy tanks that can focus fire more. It ain't perfect by any means.
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Nov 30, 2013 18:29
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jBrereton posted:It's a matter of taste, but you can always not save except in very specific circumstances, or not Rest or whatever. That is an option available to you. Feel free to do that, and let the rest of us play something that isn't explicitly designed to gently caress the player off until they've played the same section ten times to get it "right". As a matter of fact, I am doing that very thing, that is, I'm participating in a no-reload challenge! It has been a fun and eye opening experience so far, I had no idea how much I used to save scum in these games before doing this. There's this voice in the back of my head saying "mm, better quick save right now" whenever I'm anticipating a challenging situation, and then I remember that I'm playing for keeps this time. But no, the Baldur's Gate series isn't really designed for that. There are elements of the design that work much better in the context of a no-reload/limited reload run, but at the end of the day the games were designed with a quick save option in mind. I think that's to the detriment of the game, but that's what we have. I don't think I'm the only one whose ever had a hoarding problem in these games, or has completetely ignored the spell learning failure mechanic and mostly doesn't bother to deal with random encounters while resting in dungeons. Here's one thing you got wrong, though: a game with checkpoint saves isn't explicitly designed to gently caress the player over (neither is Dark Souls, for that matter). That's actually very poor design in that context, because there's a real chance of the player losing progress - and interest - in the game. If players think the game is being unfair, they'll feel cheated and won't want to play the game. When you're designing with a quick save in mind, you can throw in some "unfair" challenges because even if the players don't get it the first time, they can just save scum their way through. Mordaedil posted:Well, okay maybe the feat system is kinda dumb, but there are so many things about 3.5 edition that is just easier and better. No THAC0 for instance. Attack bonus is just a different (and to be fair, probably more intuitive) way of expressing the same concept.
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Nov 30, 2013 19:14
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If I use EEKeeper to change Edwin to a wild mage in BGEE will it carry over to BG2EE?
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Nov 30, 2013 19:17
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The superior game balance of 4E is mostly relevant in the tabletop context where all players, by the nature of the game, are presumed to be on the same team. In light of this having one player who is so powerful that the rest of the squad can basically go to sleep whenever combat occurs because they are Mere Accessories to His Greatness is a bad thing. In a singleplayer game however it is not only not a problem but arguably a merit. Who cares if you break the game over your knee like a twig if there's nobody to have their enjoyment impacted?
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Nov 30, 2013 19:17
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Balance is different in a tabletop game too, depending on how things are run. Many DMs don't run combat-heavy dungeon crawlers. In the group I used to play in, it wasn't unusual to have maybe two encounters in a night. Many challenges involved other sorts of tasks. A well-spoken party leader with social skills, often a bard or such, was as integral to our idea of a party as the smashy warrior.
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Nov 30, 2013 19:24
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Captain Oblivious posted:The superior game balance of 4E is mostly relevant in the tabletop context where all players, by the nature of the game, are presumed to be on the same team. In light of this having one player who is so powerful that the rest of the squad can basically go to sleep whenever combat occurs because they are Mere Accessories to His Greatness is a bad thing. In a singleplayer game however it is not only not a problem but arguably a merit. Who cares if you break the game over your knee like a twig if there's nobody to have their enjoyment impacted? Class imbalance can be a problem for new players, though, because they don't know the system and don't know they're also setting the game on Hard mode when they pick bard because they like class concept. In a game like Baldur's Gate, it can be pretty frustrating when you like an NPC's personality, plotline or whatever, but the NPC is mechanically inferior to other choices.
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Nov 30, 2013 19:25
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verybad posted:Class imbalance can be a problem for new players, though, because they don't know the system and don't know they're also setting the game on Hard mode when they pick bard because they like class concept. In a game like Baldur's Gate, it can be pretty frustrating when you like an NPC's personality, plotline or whatever, but the NPC is mechanically inferior to other choices. To be sure. I don't think imbalances and newbie unfriendliness go hand in hamd by necessity though. AD&D is simply obtuse beyond all reason.
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Nov 30, 2013 19:29
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verybad posted:
That was my exact point about Dark Souls. It was immaculately designed for the checkpoint save system and pulls it off amazingly. BG2 just wasn't, and while playing a no reload game has its appeal for long timers who want a new challenge, I'd have never made it through a first playthrough doing that. It's just plain not designed with the concept in mind and the only way to pull it off is to have some idea what you're getting into first, unlike DS
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Nov 30, 2013 19:35
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Captain Oblivious posted:The superior game balance of 4E is mostly relevant in the tabletop context where all players, by the nature of the game, are presumed to be on the same team. In light of this having one player who is so powerful that the rest of the squad can basically go to sleep whenever combat occurs because they are Mere Accessories to His Greatness is a bad thing. In a singleplayer game however it is not only not a problem but arguably a merit. Who cares if you break the game over your knee like a twig if there's nobody to have their enjoyment impacted? I've always been a big fan of D&D games that let you create an entire party; Icewind Dale, Temple of Elemental Evil, NWN2:SoZ, etc. It's certainly possible to make a narrative-focused CRPG where the narrative is focused on multiple individuals instead of just one; this also makes Multiplayer more interesting because no one has to play the sidekick character who isn't important to the main story. 4E rules would work well for a party-based game but it seems like no one has been willing to try a CRPG with heavy narrative focused on multiple characters v  v
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Nov 30, 2013 20:00
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divx posted:If I use EEKeeper to change Edwin to a wild mage in BGEE will it carry over to BG2EE? No, the NPCs in BG1 and BG2 are essentially separate entities.
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Nov 30, 2013 20:28
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fong posted:No, the NPCs in BG1 and BG2 are essentially separate entities. Aww drat I gave the +1 Int tome to Imoen hoping that it would carry over to BG2. 
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Nov 30, 2013 20:36
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NihilVerumNisiMors posted:Aww drat I gave the +1 Int tome to Imoen hoping that it would carry over to BG2.
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Nov 30, 2013 20:38
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It doesn't really matter since the only bonus a 19 int gives you is the ability to learn every spell in the game
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Nov 30, 2013 20:40
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DSauer posted:I've never played the Baldur's Gate series games but I have played the poo poo out of Torment and both Icewind Dales. Would it be worth it to install something like SCS for an infinity engine vet, or would I better off playing stock for a first run? I don't know how differently those two games play compared to IWD I & II. On the other hand improved Beholders makes me tear my hair out to the point where these days I just flood the beholder hive with massive armies of summons and then use farsight to direct them (you bet your rear end I lift the summoning cap too, haha). What SCS ends up doing in practice is presenting you with a bunch of challenges that you get figure out and then get used to for the rest of the game. Once you figure out how to fight one high level mage, you can generally use the same exact process for every single mage in the game. The same goes for a lot of the other components like improved rogues who love to pull multiple backstabs in a fight by chain quaffing invisibility potions (this one infuriated me a ton when I first played SCS, but then you discover glitterdust is literally one of the best spells in the game against non-mages).
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Nov 30, 2013 20:42
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NihilVerumNisiMors posted:Aww drat I gave the +1 Int tome to Imoen hoping that it would carry over to BG2. You should just shadowkeeper that extra INT into BG2 Imoen. I don't think there's anything cheesy about it.
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Nov 30, 2013 20:55
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jBrereton posted:If you're playing BGT, it will. Just to clarify, it will carry over stats and XP only if the character is in your party when you finish BG1.
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Nov 30, 2013 21:15
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You know, I could have sworn that Beholder actually was supposed to do something at the end of Black Pits. At least I thought he did the last time I played, but this time, nope. Baeloth's helpers all went down to detonation arrows, Baeloth went down to a mugging, and that was it.
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Nov 30, 2013 23:54
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DeathChicken posted:You know, I could have sworn that Beholder actually was supposed to do something at the end of Black Pits. At least I thought he did the last time I played, but this time, nope. Baeloth's helpers all went down to detonation arrows, Baeloth went down to a mugging, and that was it.
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Dec 1, 2013 00:03
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I'm playing through BG2, and am trying to use characters I haven't used in the past. I'm considering switching out Jaheira for Valygar, but since I've never used him I'm not sure how efective he would be. I'm also wondering how I'd fare with only one healer (My CHARNAME is a fighter/Priest). Are Jaheira's druid spells worth keeping her around, or is Valygar a cool enough character to make up for thweir loss? Right now I have: Me Keldorn Jaheira Mazzy Neera Jan
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Dec 1, 2013 01:41
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His character is kind of like Xan minus the humor, but he's good at backstabbing things dead.
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Dec 1, 2013 01:43
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I picked up Baldur's Gate: Enhanced Edition recently and I'm generally pretty happy with it, but during my last BG1 playthrough I installed a mod that made the world map look like this, and I can't for the life of me remember what it's called. Does anyone know where to find it, and if so, is it BG:EE-compatible?
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Dec 1, 2013 01:57
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Devorum posted:I'm playing through BG2, and am trying to use characters I haven't used in the past. I'm considering switching out Jaheira for Valygar, but since I've never used him I'm not sure how efective he would be. I'm also wondering how I'd fare with only one healer (My CHARNAME is a fighter/Priest). Are Jaheira's druid spells worth keeping her around, or is Valygar a cool enough character to make up for thweir loss? In terms of character utility, he definitely isn't as good as Jaheira. You'd do fine with a single healer (long as you kept him/her/zher protected from level drain and the like) but Jaheira's real utility is in (a) druidic summoning spells, which are the best in the game, and (b) Ironskins, which makes her pound for pound the best tank in the game, especially paired with a strength upgrade and Belm +2 (or some other weapon and improved haste). The insect swarm spells kill mages dead as long as they don't have magic resistance, and nature's beauty is a no-save blindness AoE that's quite good. Also her NPC quest is good, drops some awesome loot and actually works in BG2EE, which is more than you can say for any other version of the game. Jaheira rules.
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Dec 1, 2013 02:07
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I used Valygar a bit and he's decent combat-wise but he's boring as gently caress story-wise (he literally never says or does anything at all) and I've been packing my party with all the hilarious people. I hate Jaheira and murdered her violently. Viconia is AWESOME in a party with Keldorn though (for a while...) if you want a healer who isn't Jaheira and aren't just wanting to take Valygar specifically. I have no idea how people can put up with Jaheira's rear end without shoving some fireballs down her throat
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Dec 1, 2013 02:09
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The only time Valygar shows even a hint of personality is when Mazzy makes him her squire. It's pretty funny but only a couple lines of dialogue. He is a good fighter but Jaheira is much stronger overall.
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Dec 1, 2013 02:20
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Lobst posted:I picked up Baldur's Gate: Enhanced Edition recently and I'm generally pretty happy with it, but during my last BG1 playthrough I installed a mod that made the world map look like this, and I can't for the life of me remember what it's called. Does anyone know where to find it, and if so, is it BG:EE-compatible? I don't think you can get that in BG:EE, at least not to my knowledge.
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Dec 1, 2013 02:25
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Valygar is the Kivan of Baldur's Gate 2.
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Dec 1, 2013 03:10
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Is the lich in Underdark way easier than other liches or did I just get THAT much stronger? Kangaxx tore my head off repeatedly until I cheesed him with Prot Undead scroll, and the Underdark one I just sent my PC in fully buffed + spell immunity: abj and chaotic command, moved everyone else to somewhere safe, then hit him with a couple breaches and he ate poo poo
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Dec 1, 2013 03:25
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MrTheDevious posted:Is the lich in Underdark way easier than other liches or did I just get THAT much stronger? Kangaxx tore my head off repeatedly until I cheesed him with Prot Undead scroll, and the Underdark one I just sent my PC in fully buffed + spell immunity: abj and chaotic command, moved everyone else to somewhere safe, then hit him with a couple breaches and he ate poo poo Kangaxx and the one in WK are extra lichy; you could say they're demiliches. The other liches go down like punks to mid-level spells and don't need that high of an enchantment to hit. They also have worse saves vs. death and die really fast to Azuredge and MoD.
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