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Mu Zeta posted:The prison is way more secure than anything else out there. Out there in the real world, or the limited choices the writers can think up? I can think of two places off the top of my head that exist in large numbers across the whole country: Sams Club/Costco & Home Depot/Lowes. Anyplace with a perimeter fence is as secure as the prison was. If you are limiting it to places that are nowhere near what remains of civilization, I can see it being more limited. That is if we are still discussing TWD zombies. However knowing TWD zombies to gain whatever powers the plot requires is kind of a cheat. So noplace is going to be safe from constantly changing zombie powers. Fog Tripper fucked around with this message at 01:30 on Dec 4, 2013 |
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Dec 4, 2013 01:27
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Their population is the problem. Anybody could hole up in a well defended home with a retractable entrance like Morgan, but not 10-12 people or however many they have left.
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Dec 4, 2013 01:32
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Cocoa Ninja posted:None of this picking-apart you're describing ever comes across as satisfied viewership to me. Whether they'd recognize it as being unengaged or not, why do I want a show that does nothing but elicit discussion about how to fortify a building? Am I tuning in every week in order to discuss the proper use of mixed infantry-armor tactics? I might as well watch a youtube video from Syria.
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Dec 4, 2013 01:58
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Fog Tripper posted:Out there in the real world, or the limited choices the writers can think up? I can think of two places off the top of my head that exist in large numbers across the whole country: A prison is a pro option since they are basically functional small cities with everything from machine shops to libraries.
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Dec 4, 2013 02:24
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You know, I am really liking Tyreese a lot more with how they're taking him. A big guy that could be one of the "badass fighter" clique, except unless he's in "depressed rage" mode, seems to be a huge pussy and terrible at combat, and hates even getting into fights. It really plays against expectations. The size & strength for it, but not the stomach. His sister by contrast seems to be the real "suit up and try to be as professional as soldier as possible" type too, which is nice. Cocoa Ninja posted:I watch this show because I feel like it's my pop-culture duty and I like the general idea of genre television. This is pretty much the kind of bullshit hate watching that's extremely annoying and has been cracked down on many times. There are exceptions (EVERYONE was hate watching Heroes by the end, but at least, doing so hilariously) but Walking Dead has improved drastically. It's got flaws, sure, but it has gotten leaps and bounds better since the season 2 low point. EDIT: Half of what I remember about season 2 is "People walk around in the woods and talk a lot, and occasionally do something monumentally loving stupid." Sure season 3 was a bit of a let down in the last half, but it was a huge step up from season 2 and 4 might be their best yet. I find it amusing if you had told me Herschel gets his head slowly hacked off in season 2 I'd probably said "Thank God." They fixed his character so much it's crazy. Blazing Ownager fucked around with this message at 03:30 on Dec 4, 2013 |
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Dec 4, 2013 03:24
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I liked the start of this season but the Gov just ruins everything around him storywise I am super glad that he is dead.
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Dec 4, 2013 03:56
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Blazing Ownager posted:EDIT: Half of what I remember about season 2 is "People walk around in the woods and talk a lot, and occasionally do something monumentally loving stupid." Sure season 3 was a bit of a let down in the last half, but it was a huge step up from season 2 and 4 might be their best yet. 3 was worse than 2, it just had the second best episode of the series, that was headed by the current showrunner.
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Dec 4, 2013 04:01
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Redundant posted:I think this is an interesting point, the thing is that even when issues of survival are a discussion that the show is putting forward some people choose to discuss random minutiae instead. The best example I can think of off the top of my head is the Carl shooting from last year, instead of the discussion being about the loss of innocence of a child or whether taking prisoners is a viable option in a zombie apocalypse (or whatever) it devolved into gun etiquette and police procedure whilst ignoring the fact that it's a TV show (people repeatedly yelling instructions doesn't make good TV, lingering on a shot is a cheap way of building tension etc). I'm not convinced that happened because people weren't engaging with the show, more that it was the thing they found interesting in that episode whereas I had little or no interest. One discussion isn't inherently better than the other, it just means that different people watch the same thing for different reasons sometimes. The Carl discussion was the opposite of minutae, it was using a microcosm of the show to point out how the show was hurt by the direction and writing not matching at all and making an incoherent narrative. In that case, trying to write an ambiguous situation and directing it the opposite, which was generally a huge problem in Seasons 2 and 3 (that hasn't been an issue in 4). In fact, that was stated plainly and literally in the discussion multiple times.
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Dec 4, 2013 04:03
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Blazing Ownager posted:This is pretty much the kind of bullshit hate watching that's extremely annoying and has been cracked down on many times. If I were saying I thought the show sucked and left it at that I could understand, but I feel like I try to reason out my issues with the show and engage with others on the board. I'm not sure that "improved drastically" is a unanimous opinion. It does feel drastically different from season 2. Maybe it's a function of binging on it on Netflix, but I don't have the same dreadful opinion of that season that you do. Slow, but still trying to lay some character groundwork. But I get where you're coming from, what's the point of watching something just to rain on other people's parade? That's not what I intend to do, and I apologize if I give that impression. It's more that I'm curious what resonates with people so deeply that this is the most popular show on cable. Chalk it up to different tastes — just because Two and a Half Men is popular I obviously don't have to watch it and critique, and I hope I don't seem too negative like that. I do still enjoy parts of it, just far less than I used to. Mostly small character actor moments and some of the effective world building (I loved the tank reveal, for example, if not the execution). This last episode just seemed to be a combination of a lot of things that the show has handled poorly. The indecision over the purpose of the governor being a prime example.
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Dec 4, 2013 04:09
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There's no way in hell season 2 was better than season 3. If for no other reason than things actually happened in season 3. Season 2 had one good episode, the one where they meet Michael Raymond-James at the bar, otherwise season 2 can be summed up as: Rick: "Lord of the Raaaangs." Shane: <gargle> mmff, love water <gargle> Dale:  Daryl: "Saffeeeeeaaaaaahhhh" Lori: "Where's Carl?" Andrea: "Where's Gun?!" T-Dog: Hershel: "Up, Up, Down, Down, Left, Right, Left, Right, B, A, Start." -Blackadder- fucked around with this message at 04:17 on Dec 4, 2013 |
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Dec 4, 2013 04:14
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I enjoyed season 2 more than 3 by a pretty wide margin, even if 2 had a couple horrible low points and 3 had a couple great highs. The Rick/Shane conflict throughout 2 worked better for me than anything in season 3's main plot stuff. Not Enough Things Happened isn't really an issue for me, I like these characters even if they're boneheads.
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Dec 4, 2013 04:32
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I watched Seasons 2 and 3 pretty much all together, and this is the first season I'm watching as it airs. I never really got the impression that 2 and 3 were all that bad, but maybe its one of those things that's better when you watch it all in a couple of sittings rather than go week to week?
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Dec 4, 2013 05:06
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Blazing Ownager posted:
Some of you really need to calm down and not have a meltdown when someone doesn't take the same thing away from the show as you do. "Extremely annoying" is easily combated with the ignore function of the forum. Also because some of us like to discuss inconsistencies and minutiae, does not mean we are not enjoying the show. Some people enjoy somehow finding symbolism in a brand of chess set or bugs. Some of us enjoy the battles/firearms/odd goofy things. Relax. Fog Tripper fucked around with this message at 05:27 on Dec 4, 2013 |
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Dec 4, 2013 05:24
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I thought it was a good ending to the season (or whatever the gently caress you want to call a mid season finale). The thing that I constantly roll my eyes at though is how they don't have two people, or at least one, constantly on watch it's not hard to assign a watch schedule. One person watches the main gate where every loving incursion has come from, the other walks a perimeter. They would've heard the governor coming, they would've been able to prevent the fence from going down the first time. I also don't really get why they're not better drilled as far as evacuating. I guess it's a bit much to hope for but, christ really, you can't put one or two mopes on a roof or in a tower, or on a walk way with a set of binoculars? Either way I'm interested to see where they go from here. I'm curious if they were smart enough to set a rallying point in the event they had to flee or whether we're set to see the group fracture.
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Dec 4, 2013 05:26
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Well drat, Herschel's the first character in the show that's died that i've actually cared about in some fashion, everyone else that has died has been annoying to some degree or another.
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Dec 4, 2013 05:31
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cycomatix posted:I watched Seasons 2 and 3 pretty much all together, and this is the first season I'm watching as it airs. I never really got the impression that 2 and 3 were all that bad, but maybe its one of those things that's better when you watch it all in a couple of sittings rather than go week to week? This exactly! I watched it week to week, and it sure FELT like I was being dragged along a never ending path of not-finding-the-dead-girl. But when I re-watched the show with my fiance pre-season 4, it wasn't all that bad, and I really enjoyed it a lot more than when it was airing.
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Dec 4, 2013 05:42
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STAC Goat posted:The notion that Rick didn't care about the lives of "the hostages" just seems absolutely absurd to me and seems like it goes against nearly every action he's made in this series. He didn't play hardball under the idea that the hostages were expendable any more than he went out there alone under the idea that he was expendable, because make no mistake he was at much at risk in the position as they were. He went out there and took his stance because he believed it was the only one to take. Right or wrong it seems absurd to me to present it like it was some cold, unfeeling bargaining position. I don't mean to make it sound like he didn't care, just that if he thought some more about it he'd realize that he's not in the position to make counter demands. (Unless he's willing to sacrifice hostages) quote:Just as much as it seems absurd to me to present his making the decision as some kind of "gently caress them, I'm the leader" thing. What about the part where he repeatedly told the Governor there was a Council and the Governor said he had to make the decision? What about all the times this season Rick refused power and apologized for his brief dictatorship? It seems crazy to me that in the same situation you accuse Rick of motivations that go against almost all his characterization while you seem to treat the Governor as a rational actor despite all his characterization. Its like you have the two of them reversed. I would say it's no more out of character as it was in the previous episode when Rick banished Carol without without waiting to talk to the council. He's still making decisions for the group by himself even though he says he doesn't. Giving Rick until sundown more than suggests that he's free to go back and that an answer is not required this very second. I don't see why he would think to say "We're not leaving" without asking to speak to the others and having a debate about it? Perhaps like me, a lot of them would have said that refusing to give up the prison would amount to a near 100% certainty of death for Hershel/Michonne and maybe all of them if they lost the battle.... yet if they agreed to leave maybe the prison is seriously all that they want and everyone gets to live. Perhaps he shouldn't make a split second decision anyway and think about it. quote:Everyone was already in "immediate danger" given the tank and militia standing at their door. That's why Darryl was handing them crazy military guns while all this was happening. They were also already prepping for their retreat because they're all pretty well prepped and in control after all they've been through. In fact just about the only thing keeping them from having more control over the situation was the recent illness that lessened their numbers and left so many of the survivors weak. Sasha and Darryl even have a brief exchange about how their stocked supplies and "bug out" stuff were down and ill kept because they hadn't yet rebounded from the crisis. They were not in too much control considering they lost a baby. A bit more of a warning would certainly have helped. quote:Martinez and Merle might have had a problem with it but they probably would have gone along with it the same as Mitch and so many others did at the time. The same as they went along with hunting down Michonne, torturing Glenn, Maggie, and Andrea, repeatedly attacking the prison, setting up a death match for Darryl, or murdering Rick and his people during their summit. The Governor's history is filled with people like Merle, Martinez, and Milton having a serious problem with him while also going along with it because they're either scared, swept up in the madness, or giving in to their baser instincts. It seems weird to me to argue that the Governor's people would balk at the cold blooded murder of Hershell when the exact opposite happened. You're making a good argument for not trusting them. In that case however that the governor and his people can't be trusted in the slightest at all, wouldn't they be dooming themselves just as much by allowing them into the prison? They could pretend to be friendly and then sneak around in the night and kill everyone in their sleep. Either way with leaving or allowing them in, taking a chance on trusting them is kind of has to be done for a peaceful resolution. quote:And even if these people would be the ones to finally stand up to the Governor it seems insane to believe that the Governor would behave rationally or object to killing Hershell and Michonne in front of his people. The same man who has time and again done horrid things and justified to his people, talked his way out of it, or has simply done batshit insane things like mowing down his own militia? Rick (and I would think most of the prison crew who have been here with the Governor before) probably assumed that the Governor would act irrationally and do something severe, like cutting Herschell's head off with a sword, and that his militia would either be morally bankrupt enough or so terrified and all in that they continued on after such an act. And turns out he was right. As despicable as the character of the Governor is, he did seem to be sincere in this episode about only wanting the prison. Hershel knew everything he did in the past and remarked that he noticed he had changed. Obviously he's still a bad guy, but he isn't the same. He really didn't come off as lying when he told Michonne that he realizes now that his daughter was dead and he no longer has a grudge. He claimed he wanted the prison and it wasn't anything personal. It's not like the show was presenting him as a false sympathetic character in that scene. He admitted he didn't care about killing Hershel's daughters. He simply wanted the prison by any means necessary. The lines "I'm trying hard. There's all kinds of way I could do this. This way you get to live, and I get to be..." came across like it meant to be a revealing character moment. The way he stops himself and walks off seems to imply that he was revealing something personal about himself he didn't want revealed. It didn't come across as fake bullshit dialogue. That being the case, it's quite probable that he would have let them all leave unscathed. When Rick said "We're not leaving", I thought "Oh gently caress you, Rick" because the episode up to the point did give me the impression that the Governor was going to let them go. After he said that, I knew Hershel was dead.
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Dec 4, 2013 06:16
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Surlaw posted:I enjoyed season 2 more than 3 by a pretty wide margin, even if 2 had a couple horrible low points and 3 had a couple great highs. The Rick/Shane conflict throughout 2 worked better for me than anything in season 3's main plot stuff. Not Enough Things Happened isn't really an issue for me, I like these characters even if they're boneheads. The Rick/Shane conflict was unbelievably awful in terms of how contrived it was. It basically existed solely to create drama out of thin air and had literally zero purpose in terms of plot or even character development. For me it took Shane from "likable" to "god drat idiot."
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Dec 4, 2013 06:19
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enraged_camel posted:The Rick/Shane conflict was unbelievably awful in terms of how contrived it was. It basically existed solely to create drama out of thin air and had literally zero purpose in terms of plot or even character development. For me it took Shane from "likable" to "god drat idiot." And meanwhile you had Lori going between the two of them being awful, inconsistent, and generally annoying to watch.
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Dec 4, 2013 06:24
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enraged_camel posted:The Rick/Shane conflict was unbelievably awful in terms of how contrived it was. It basically existed solely to create drama out of thin air and had literally zero purpose in terms of plot or even character development. For me it took Shane from "likable" to "god drat idiot." I never really got why people hated Lori so much either though. The only scene she had that really made me mad was the dumb car flip.
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Dec 4, 2013 06:27
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Basebf555 posted:I always wondered how true that would actually be in practice. I guess maybe natural disasters are the closest we've seen in human history to whats happened in the show, I urge you to research Yugoslavia in the 1990s, or Afghanistan in the last decade, or Somalia today. Or bunches of other examples. A temporary recession of civilization due to natural disaster has nothing on sectarian collapses of government.
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Dec 4, 2013 06:35
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VDay posted:And meanwhile you had Lori going between the two of them being awful, inconsistent, and generally annoying to watch. For sure. I laughed and applauded when she died.
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Dec 4, 2013 06:43
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cycomatix posted:I watched Seasons 2 and 3 pretty much all together, and this is the first season I'm watching as it airs. I never really got the impression that 2 and 3 were all that bad, but maybe its one of those things that's better when you watch it all in a couple of sittings rather than go week to week? I've heard this from multiple people; those that binge-watched season 2 say it's not as bad as those who watched it week-to-week thought.
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Dec 4, 2013 06:51
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VDay posted:And meanwhile you had Lori going between the two of them being awful, inconsistent, and generally annoying to watch. enraged_camel posted:For sure. I laughed and applauded when she died. Honestly, Lori and Andrea were two of the most insultingly written female characters I've ever seen on television. Somewhere between a pregnant Lori flipping her car on an empty road and Andrea insisting on shooting Daryl in the head to prove how tough she was, it got to the point where I actually started to wonder if the writers were trying to do a satire on the Incompetent Woman trope. -Blackadder- fucked around with this message at 07:29 on Dec 4, 2013 |
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Dec 4, 2013 07:23
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A vet? Like a soldier? :staredowns:
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Dec 4, 2013 07:30
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-Blackadder- posted:Honestly, Lori and Andrea were two of the most insultingly written female characters I've ever seen on television. Somewhere between a pregnant Lori flipping her car on an empty road and Andrea insisting on shooting Daryl in the head to prove how tough she was, it got to the point where I actually started to wonder if the writers were trying to do a satire on the Incompetent Woman trope. Don't forget Lori also kept fanning the flames between Rick and Shane. I mean, drat. You're a married woman and you have a kid. Your husband comes back from the dead and your family is together again. And yet, instead of being grateful and doing everything you can to re-establish family stability, you remain on talking terms with the guy you used to gently caress while your husband was presumed dead? Jesus.
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Dec 4, 2013 07:42
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enraged_camel posted:Don't forget Lori also kept fanning the flames between Rick and Shane. They establish in the pilot and in flashbacks that Lori and Rick's marriage was very much on the rocks. I don't think the apocalypse necessarily brings couples together, either. Having said that, the whiplash between Lori liking Shane one day and Rick another was frustrating, but there was a believable contrast between the two that never existed between Rick and the clearly psychopathic governor. When Shane died the show lost a certain emotional and (a?)moral anchor.
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Dec 4, 2013 08:44
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enraged_camel posted:Don't forget Lori also kept fanning the flames between Rick and Shane. Cocoa Ninja posted:They establish in the pilot and in flashbacks that Lori and Rick's marriage was very much on the rocks. I don't think the apocalypse necessarily brings couples together, either. A True Jar Jar Fan fucked around with this message at 14:31 on Dec 4, 2013 |
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Dec 4, 2013 14:25
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Besides which, I thought Lori was pretty clear to Shane that she wanted him to stay away from her and Carl, but he kept trying to push his way back into having a relationship with her, especially after Shane found out about the pregnancy. I thought it was pretty funny when some fans read Lori warning Rick about Shane being dangerous to be her playing some kind of black widow puppetmaster setting the two men down a road to a bloody end, when all the signs we saw from Shane throughout seasons one and two overwhelmingly indicated that Shane was getting increasingly violent and sociopathic. If anything she should have warned Rick far sooner, like, say, after the attempted rape. Mazzagatti2Hotty fucked around with this message at 15:04 on Dec 4, 2013 |
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Dec 4, 2013 15:02
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Macdeo Lurjtux posted:I could see that, the actor is good friends with Darabont and probably wanted out the minute he was fired. FlamingLiberal fucked around with this message at 15:53 on Dec 4, 2013 |
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Dec 4, 2013 15:50
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Darko posted:The Carl discussion was the opposite of minutae, it was using a microcosm of the show to point out how the show was hurt by the direction and writing not matching at all and making an incoherent narrative. In that case, trying to write an ambiguous situation and directing it the opposite, which was generally a huge problem in Seasons 2 and 3 (that hasn't been an issue in 4). In fact, that was stated plainly and literally in the discussion multiple times. You can argue that scene was sloppily shot but the show then went to great lengths to have the moral compass of the show (Herschel) out and out say "the kid was no threat, it was done in cold blood" to drive the point home. That narrative aspect was glossed over though in favour of more "in real life..." talk which, to me, was a discussion about minutiae. As another example, the discussion about the Governor firing too many rounds which turned out to be wrong (I think a TFR poster eventually mentioned that the gun he was using holds exactly as many rounds as he fired) springs to mind. Like I said in my original post, if that's what people want to discuss then they should go ahead, but from my perspective it's minutiae that doesn't really have an impact on the story at all. I'm sure I have discussed things at length that other people just don't care about, it's part and parcel of having lots of different perspectives of the same stimulus, people will provide different aspects of the show different levels of importance. Redundant fucked around with this message at 16:28 on Dec 4, 2013 |
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Dec 4, 2013 16:02
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-Blackadder- posted:Honestly, Lori and Andrea were two of the most insultingly written female characters I've ever seen on television. Somewhere between a pregnant Lori flipping her car on an empty road and Andrea insisting on shooting Daryl in the head to prove how tough she was, it got to the point where I actually started to wonder if the writers were trying to do a satire on the Incompetent Woman trope. Mazzara clearly hated women. Also, character development of any kind. Also goddamn gently caress Mazzara.
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Dec 4, 2013 16:05
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Super Ninja Fish posted:I don't mean to make it sound like he didn't care, just that if he thought some more about it he'd realize that he's not in the position to make counter demands. (Unless he's willing to sacrifice hostages) I don't see it like that at all. In fact there was no way in hell the Governor gang could take over the prison by force without completely demolishing it. Hell, instead of everybody taking cover behind the chain-link fence send everybody into the top of the cell blocks and as the "infantry" roll in start tossing down grenades and molotov cocktails and shooting them in crossfire. I doubt there was even enough ammo in that tank to make more than a few holes in the cell blocks, they certainly could never hope to flush out the prison gang with the tank alone and the defenders had the advantage of being barricaded in an environment they are familiar with. All the governor had was 2 hostages and I doubt either of them would hesitate to sacrifice their lives rather than having everyone cast out and sentenced to death.
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Dec 4, 2013 16:32
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VDay posted:And meanwhile you had Lori going between the two of them being awful, inconsistent, and generally annoying to watch. God, she was so awful. Her and Andrea were just totally insufferable. At least the rest of the women on the show are badass.
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Dec 4, 2013 18:32
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THE MACHO MAN posted:God, she was so awful. Her and Andrea were just totally insufferable. Dunno, the not-a-real-cop lesbian is pretty annoying.
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Dec 4, 2013 18:33
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Fog Tripper posted:Dunno, the not-a-real-cop lesbian is pretty annoying. Yeah, that's true. Most of the women are badass then haha. Lori and Andrea were just the two characters I hated the most by far. Lori was a horrible person in addition to being incompetent. I definitely don't care for Carl, but my girlfriend hates him with a burning passion. He is pretty annoying. Honestly, I wouldn't be surprised to see him die eventually so that Rick walks around with his anguished face 100% of the time instead of 90%. I really think the only safe ones are Rick and Daryl. I definitely think Glenn is up next and that makes me sad.
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Dec 4, 2013 18:51
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Fog Tripper posted:Dunno, the not-a-real-cop lesbian is pretty annoying. Eh, I think she's okay - she had the best line of dialogue in the entirety of the last episode and reacted to the whole situation in the most believable way out of all the Governer's group.
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Dec 4, 2013 18:59
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Adeptus posted:Eh, I think she's okay - she had the best line of dialogue in the entirety of the last episode and reacted to the whole situation in the most believable way out of all the Governer's group. I think she gets a lot of credit for the "holy poo poo just chopped off a dudes head" line. It reminded me their little group has been living shut off from all the previous seasons' craziness and are still somewhat normal people - maybe not ready to shank flu victims or blindly follow one-eyed psychopaths into zombie mazes.
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Dec 4, 2013 19:10
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That was like one of the maybe two good episodes this season. Things of consequence finally happened! So the baby got taken to Ireland, right?
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Dec 4, 2013 19:36
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Almost the whole season has been really good, plenty "happened."
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Dec 4, 2013 19:43
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