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Demiurge4 posted:But the whole place was abandoned and stricken from imperial archives so that doesn't make any sense. I haven't read Betrayer for awhile but don't Angron and Lorgar head to Angron's homeworld to find a cure for the Nails? Guilliman follows them to Nuceria where they get into a big fight, Angron ascends and Guilliman runs the gently caress away not knowing what the gently caress was happening. As I understand it, Angron never gave a poo poo about his legion so he only ends up killing everyone on the planet when he realises the existing civilisation and rulers were still in charge of his homeworld and had changed history making him as a coward for running away during his last stand. Post Heresy, Nuceria and the other traitor homeworlds like Nostramo and Prospero get wiped out and the records of their existence destroyed. UberJumper posted:I would think the loyalty of a primarch. Would far outweigh the value of a single planet. I don't think loyalty was in any consideration since Angron flat out refused to join the Emperor and the entire Heresy is basically dealing with the consequences of the Emperor's poor decision making skills.
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Dec 5, 2013 02:26
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Kegslayer posted:I haven't read Betrayer for awhile but don't Angron and Lorgar head to Angron's homeworld to find a cure for the Nails? Guilliman follows them to Nuceria where they get into a big fight, Angron ascends and Guilliman runs the gently caress away not knowing what the gently caress was happening. Lorgar tells Angron it is to find a cure for the nails, and Angron rebukes him by telling him, if there was a cure then Malacador would have known it. Lorgar relents and tells him, that Nuceria is one of the super important worlds, that needs to burn to make his firewall of warp, severing the 500 worlds from the rest of the imperium. Angron still doesn't believe him, and more or less just doesn't want to go back. In the end Lorgar just hand waves and Angron just goes along with it. quote:I don't think loyalty was in any consideration since Angron flat out refused to join the Emperor and the entire Heresy is basically dealing with the consequences of the Emperor's poor decision making skills. I really hope there is something more too it than the whole Emperor is a lovely father and has terrible decision making skills.
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Dec 5, 2013 03:27
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UberJumper posted:I really hope there is something more too it than the whole Emperor is a lovely father and has terrible decision making skills. I guess that depends on who's writing it. I mean it works thematically that the Emperor, humanity's best and brightest is brought down by humanity's biggest flaws like hubris, xenophobia and ignorance.
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Dec 5, 2013 03:39
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UberJumper posted:
Well the guy who has brought up most of the points we have talked about when it comes to the Emperor's failings is writing a book about him. While it is certainly possible he will go a completely different direction, I would expect him to address most of them there
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Dec 5, 2013 03:57
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UberJumper posted:That would be a nice twist i like that idea. YEah I mean I basically made it up out of nothing but it's interesting, especially since we know he has weird rage blackouts and isn't entirely sane anyway. All his "family" being killed could have done something to his memory. UberJumper posted:I would think the loyalty of a primarch. Would far outweigh the value of a single planet. Unless there was some mega-spooky important ancient artifacts or knowledge on that planet. We don't know where stuff like the Golden Throne originally came from, after all.
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Dec 5, 2013 04:04
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UberJumper posted:I would think the loyalty of a primarch. Would far outweigh the value of a single planet. He got both this way though? Until Horus went over Angron may not have been loyal, but he obeyed, and that was all that mattered from the Emperor's perspective.
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Dec 5, 2013 04:07
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Kegslayer posted:I guess that depends on who's writing it. I mean it works thematically that the Emperor, humanity's best and brightest is brought down by humanity's biggest flaws like hubris, xenophobia and ignorance. Yeah depending on how you write it, either the Emperor is a representation of humanity with all humanity's faults which leads to his undoing, or the Emperor is almost perfect but humanity is so flawed that even with a perfect leader they still gently caress everything up anyway. I actually like the latter, since we already have the primarchs to explore the whole "demigods with human virtues and flaws both magnified" aspect. OXBALLS DOT COM fucked around with this message at 04:12 on Dec 5, 2013 |
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Dec 5, 2013 04:10
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Kegslayer posted:I guess that depends on who's writing it. I mean it works thematically that the Emperor, humanity's best and brightest is brought down by humanity's biggest flaws like hubris, xenophobia and ignorance. ADB is writing Master of Mankind so I hope something is mentioned regarding the Angron situation. I'm sure we can milk the tragedy some more.
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Dec 5, 2013 04:16
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You know how somehow, no matter what, parents are always surprised when it turns out they aren't cool parents and their teenager hates them? That.
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Dec 5, 2013 04:49
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Big E might be the strongest and mightiest being in all of humanity but I think being at demi-god status for so long ruins his perspective. Its the only reason I can think of for him just dropping the loving idiot ball so much. Logar worships him like the god he (practically) is. Better destroy his shining jewel of a city in front of his eyes. And lets use one of his brothers just to build some animosity while we're at it. Magnus breaks his big rule in an effort to save his father and accidentally breaks his science fair project. Better send the Empire's Executioners to bring them in. No...telling Magnus to teleport his dumb rear end to Terra and sit on the throne he broke as penance would be too easy. Magnus would have accepted it and the sons would learn that use of their craft has repercussions. Angron...just what the gently caress Big E. You could have teleported down ended the war. Let Angron execute the current government and instill a puppet regime to run the planet.
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Dec 5, 2013 07:01
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I don't think teleporting works like that. The whole point of Magnus's little stunt was that the Emperor can't even talk to him let alone teleport him. The others have been covered here, at length, repeatedly. It's pretty much a choice to prefer that interpretation given how intentionally vaguely everything has been presented so far. OXBALLS DOT COM fucked around with this message at 07:15 on Dec 5, 2013 |
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Dec 5, 2013 07:11
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It's perfectly reasonable to say that, okay, the Emperor was objectively a pretty amazing warlord and pretty good at military research, or at least at administering military research. Also, he has some sort of incredible psychic presence, far beyond that of pretty much any other human in history. The trick is not confusing that with him being smart at human relations, diplomacy, or being a "good person," or to think that just because he was M30's answer to Genghis Khan, he can do no wrong, or even very little wrong. I think that a lot of people pretty understandably have trouble with that, since for so long (and still to a large extent) the Imperium of Mankind circa M41 has been the default perspective.
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Dec 5, 2013 08:14
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JerryLee posted:It's perfectly reasonable to say that, okay, the Emperor was objectively a pretty amazing warlord and pretty good at military research, or at least at administering military research. Also, he has some sort of incredible psychic presence, far beyond that of pretty much any other human in history. Except supposedly for 30,000+ years he's essentially been the super-Illuminati manipulating mankind's development behind the scenes so it makes no sense for him to be bad at those things when he is implied to have been literally Jesus as well as a bunch of other prophets, geniuses, and holy men and only turned into a super warlord in the past thousand years or so.
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Dec 5, 2013 08:21
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JerryLee posted:It's perfectly reasonable to say that, okay, the Emperor was objectively a pretty amazing warlord and pretty good at military research, or at least at administering military research. Also, he has some sort of incredible psychic presence, far beyond that of pretty much any other human in history. When Abbadon and the others recruit Garviel into the Lodge they argue that the Emperor is so far removed from humanity he doesn't understand the need for brotherhood and camaraderie, which is why he banned things like Lodges. It makes sense that the Emperor keeps making retarded decisions when the emotions of the Primarchs come into play because he's never had to deal with that. He expects them to be able to act like perfect rational beings when he explains things to them, like he is. It's like he's autistic, but after 30,000 years even an autistic person should figure out how normal people can be emotional and irrational.
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Dec 5, 2013 08:53
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Hopefully not to start a debate about real-world religion, but in terms of real world history Jesus was ultimately pretty bad at actually getting a lot of his ideas to work with real human beings, too  (at least if you think he was about getting people to be excellent to each other rather than killing and conquering in his name). Same with Buddha and Mohammed and so on down the line. So while they can say 'the Emperor was all these famous folks!' and people will take it as oh, the Emperor was Jesus, that's a check mark in the "literally divine" column, it's really pretty much exactly the opposite. I'm one of the people who has said "oh, but how could Literal Jesus screw up so badly??" but what that ultimately means isn't that we should assume that the Emperor didn't screw up despite any number of indications to the contrary, rather that either the Emperor doesn't actually have as much of a pedigree as the old fluff says he does or that pedigree isn't worth as much as many folks assume it is. If anything it would in some sense be more impressive if the Emperor was born for the first time sometime in M29 or whatever, because that would mean he was relatively successful on his very first try rather than having to spend 30,000 (or 37,000 or whatever, depending on when you date the suicide pact) years figuring it out.
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Dec 5, 2013 08:56
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I have to wonder how good the Emperor really would have to be at diplomacy or human relations when you consider the fact that he's an awesome super megapsyker who can just mindfuck people into believing whatever he wants them to believe. I mean, it's not like he had to win any of those people over with logic or convincing arguments or anything along those lines.
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Dec 5, 2013 09:23
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One of the things I was most hoping the Horus Heresy novels would do is dispel the myth of The God Emperor. Back before they came out I always heard the idea thrown around that "things would have been perfect if the Emperor didn't get taken out." I never liked that idea and I hoped the novels would paint him with a much more subtle brush. So far they've done a pretty good job. Nothing he's done so far is beyond the means of someone using psychic powers to fool people's minds and unknown technology to fool their devices. It also helps that they've introduced a number of characters that knew the man when he was "younger" and they all thought he was somewhat loathsome or cold-blooded. I seriously can't wait for "Master of Mankind" just to see how it portrays him.
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Dec 5, 2013 12:40
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EyeRChris posted:Magnus breaks his big rule in an effort to save his father and accidentally breaks his science fair project. Better send the Empire's Executioners to bring them in. No...telling Magnus to teleport his dumb rear end to Terra and sit on the throne he broke as penance would be too easy. Magnus would have accepted it and the sons would learn that use of their craft has repercussions. I was under the impression the Golden Throne was either an entrance to, or humanitys equivalent of, the webway? A way to travel the stars without the warp. When Magnus broke through he allowed the warp into the sealed environment, which held all of the human races greatest minds who had been working on this project for E, killing all of them. Which does a bit to explain why there's so much stagnation and regression technology wise post-heresy. Imagine if everyone at CERN, or every leading physics/mathematics/engineering expert just up'd and died. By punching through, he created in essence, another potential Eye. The warp is howling just on the other side of the Golden Throne, waiting for a momentary flicker to burst into reality. Plus, Magnus had been told (I forget by who) that the emperors endgame for him was to sit on the throne forever as a big battery.
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Dec 5, 2013 14:55
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pentyne posted:When Abbadon and the others recruit Garviel into the Lodge they argue that the Emperor is so far removed from humanity he doesn't understand the need for brotherhood and camaraderie, which is why he banned things like Lodges. It makes sense that the Emperor keeps making retarded decisions when the emotions of the Primarchs come into play because he's never had to deal with that. He expects them to be able to act like perfect rational beings when he explains things to them, like he is. Except secret societies really aren't a very good idea and the lodges were a (successful) plan to corrupt the legions, so this isn't a very good example since he was actually right. JerryLee posted:I'm one of the people who has said "oh, but how could Literal Jesus screw up so badly??" but what that ultimately means isn't that we should assume that the Emperor didn't screw up despite any number of indications to the contrary, rather that either the Emperor doesn't actually have as much of a pedigree as the old fluff says he does or that pedigree isn't worth as much as many folks assume it is. If anything it would in some sense be more impressive if the Emperor was born for the first time sometime in M29 or whatever, because that would mean he was relatively successful on his very first try rather than having to spend 30,000 (or 37,000 or whatever, depending on when you date the suicide pact) years figuring it out. Except humanity had been incredibly successful and spread over almost the entire galaxy before the various near-apocalyptic events that ended the Dark Age of Technology, which was a golden age for man even despite the meddling of various ancient alien races. He apparently did an excellent job until humanity was so huge and spread out he could no longer effectively control it as one man. Khizan posted:I have to wonder how good the Emperor really would have to be at diplomacy or human relations when you consider the fact that he's an awesome super megapsyker who can just mindfuck people into believing whatever he wants them to believe. I mean, it's not like he had to win any of those people over with logic or convincing arguments or anything along those lines. Logic and convincing arguments really have very little to do with diplomacy or human relations in the first place, though. Charisma and power/need wins people over, but not logic. OXBALLS DOT COM fucked around with this message at 15:30 on Dec 5, 2013 |
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Dec 5, 2013 15:17
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pentyne posted:When Abbadon and the others recruit Garviel into the Lodge they argue that the Emperor is so far removed from humanity he doesn't understand the need for brotherhood and camaraderie, which is why he banned things like Lodges. It makes sense that the Emperor keeps making retarded decisions when the emotions of the Primarchs come into play because he's never had to deal with that. He expects them to be able to act like perfect rational beings when he explains things to them, like he is. Aside from the fact that he was right in that instance, you can use the exact same argument for the opposite viewpoint: the Emperor's perspective is so vast that those beneath him often can't fathom his actions (even in hindsight). From that you can derive why he doesn't explain, he leads by example and showing the success of his work and methods, and expects obedience - he's an absolute tyrant. And for the most part he had it, even with Angron, but you know... there was this factor of a subversive and omnipresent force as old as the galaxy itself working the long-con to undo his plan even as it was just getting on its feet. It's easy to point out where The Emperor failed (or not so much failed, but Chaos succeeding) and paint him negatively when you leave aside the millions of ways where he didn't, but perhaps you shouldn't see the common theme as exemplifying that Big E doesn't understand human emotions, rather that Chaos got its way in the way it excels at: through the manipulation of the very stuff it's made out of.
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Dec 5, 2013 18:31
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I am stupidly excited for Master of Mankind and The Talons of Horus. When ADB splits from GW it will be a sad day. He's writing literature in the form of pew-pew space mans sci-fi, and you can tell some of the others are upping their game to keep up.
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Dec 5, 2013 19:10
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Cream_Filling posted:Except humanity had been incredibly successful and spread over almost the entire galaxy before the various near-apocalyptic events that ended the Dark Age of Technology, which was a golden age for man even despite the meddling of various ancient alien races. He apparently did an excellent job until humanity was so huge and spread out he could no longer effectively control it as one man. So the emperor in one of his personas was behind that era too? I honestly thought pretty much everything about that era was speculation.
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Dec 5, 2013 19:40
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JerryLee posted:So the emperor in one of his personas was behind that era too? I honestly thought pretty much everything about that era was speculation. The Emporer has been quitly guiding humanity throughout its history, but only stepped to the forefront for Unification.
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Dec 5, 2013 20:17
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The way I've understood it is that the emperor only had to step in visibly when chaos upped its game during the long night. He was behind the great expansion originally, and felt the need to step in personally when humanity was at its most backwater and threatened. Technobarbaians on the face of earth and all that. I figure the great crusade led humanity into a galaxy that at that time was the darkest it had ever been (or had been during the time the emperor was doing his thing - he's not as old as the war in heaven, or presumably the brain boyz creation of the Orks)
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Dec 5, 2013 20:38
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lenoon posted:The way I've understood it is that the emperor only had to step in visibly when chaos upped its game during the long night. He was behind the great expansion originally, and felt the need to step in personally when humanity was at its most backwater and threatened. Technobarbaians on the face of earth and all that. I figure the great crusade led humanity into a galaxy that at that time was the darkest it had ever been (or had been during the time the emperor was doing his thing - he's not as old as the war in heaven, or presumably the brain boyz creation of the Orks) I find this odd, because in the short story Scions of the Storm (Tales of Heresy, i think?) the Word Bearers are trying to bring a world to complacency. Only to discover the people there worship the emperor and wanted to join the Imperium. How did the people know about the big E?
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Dec 5, 2013 21:06
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UberJumper posted:I find this odd, because in the short story Scions of the Storm (Tales of Heresy, i think?) the Word Bearers are trying to bring a world to complacency. Only to discover the people there worship the emperor and wanted to join the Imperium. I don't think it was ever addressed, but it's not impossible in the WH40k universe. Maybe a psyker with prescience abilities foresaw the coming of the Emperor and used it as the basis of a religion. Also it's compliance. Complacency is a much different concept 
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Dec 5, 2013 21:20
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Or a trade ship told them about him.
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Dec 5, 2013 21:23
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UberJumper posted:I find this odd, because in the short story Scions of the Storm (Tales of Heresy, i think?) the Word Bearers are trying to bring a world to complacency. Only to discover the people there worship the emperor and wanted to join the Imperium. In the story, they simply worshiped a Zeus-like figure, and when the planet's elites obtained a copy of the Lectitio Divinatus (presumably from the elements in the expeditionary fleet during first contact), they concluded that the Emperor must be the same entity as their god -- they didn't worship or know who the Emperor was before that point. Religions that have a luminous male deity associated with gold and lightning aren't exactly a rare thing. Mechafunkzilla fucked around with this message at 21:35 on Dec 5, 2013 |
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Dec 5, 2013 21:33
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That's also big part of why the Emperor is a giant retarded hypocrite, he covers himself in gold and lightning bolts and sports a massive blinding halo and then gets mad at anyone who mistakes him for a god. If he had just stuck to jeans and a button down all the unpleasantness could have been avoided.
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Dec 5, 2013 21:41
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Mechafunkzilla posted:That's also big part of why the Emperor is a giant retarded hypocrite, he covers himself in gold and lightning bolts and sports a massive blinding halo and then gets mad at anyone who mistakes him for a god. If he had just stuck to jeans and a button down all the unpleasantness could have been avoided. Would you follow Bob from Accounting to the ends of the galaxy?
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Dec 5, 2013 22:02
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So I read Innocence Proves Nothing from Sandy Mitchell and I'm appalled. The book was a fun read, but it suddenly ends in a cliffhangar and no next book in sight? I think I already know the answer, but is there a chance the last book will come out soon? The pacing was a bit weird, half the book is spend with different inquisition groups wandering around in different places, slowly getting closer to each other. And as soon as the story finally gathers steam, the first Enslavers show up, the book ends. gently caress.
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Dec 5, 2013 22:04
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The idea of an Average Joe Emperor listening to public relations assistants on how to dress and drive a pickup to inspire humans into following him is highly amusing.
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Dec 5, 2013 22:25
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JerryLee posted:Jesus stuff In that same vein, what we are reading about the Horus Heresy is (ostensibly) 10000 years of legends, mistranslations, and differing viewpoints. Just because the Emperor seemingly makes bad decisions, that doesn't mean it is the case - we just haven't heard the "correct" version. Pyrolocutus posted:Would you follow Bob from Accounting to the ends of the galaxy?
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Dec 5, 2013 23:20
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Libluini posted:So I read Innocence Proves Nothing from Sandy Mitchell and I'm appalled. Everybody wants another Cain novel. I want him to write about whatever he thinks is cool at the time, like finishing his Inquisitor series. Or anything else, I like his stuff and he's proved he can handle different styles.
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Dec 5, 2013 23:23
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mllaneza posted:Everybody wants another Cain novel. I want him to write about whatever he thinks is cool at the time, like finishing his Inquisitor series. Or anything else, I like his stuff and he's proved he can handle different styles. Well, poo poo. I hate it when stuff is left unfinished. At least the last Cain novel was also good. I also liked the twist that the Tau were dropped into insignificance pretty fast and most of the rest was about the Adeptus Mechanicus and mad science with Tyranids.
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Dec 5, 2013 23:31
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Man, Mitchell has such a hardon for Necrons and Tyranids, doesn't he?
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Dec 5, 2013 23:33
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bunnyofdoom posted:Man, Mitchell has such a hardon for Necrons and Tyranids, doesn't he? My hope is that he will never write about them again, now that he did his best to suck this particular well dry. I will really flip my poo poo if his next book is about Tau and Tyranids. The Greater Good is not about Tau. The title is a lie. Mitchell even does this little fake out in the beginning were it looks as if Caiaphas ends up observing a Tau army fighting the Tyranids, but nope instead the Tau ambassador follows the Imperial Guard to some emperor-forsaken forge world. On the upside, readers will learn a lot about the inner workings of the Adeptus Mechanicus. And those space marines Caiaphas is always talking about make an appearance! The Tau are almost forgotten by that point.
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Dec 5, 2013 23:56
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Libluini posted:So I read Innocence Proves Nothing from Sandy Mitchell and I'm appalled. Actually there is one, Scourge the Hereic but it also ends on a pretty big cliffhanger if I remember right. But who knows, when the second edition of the Dark Heresy RPG comes out we might see a sequel. Most likely not. (All the characters in the book are the example characters from the Dark Heresy core rule book if you weren't aware of that already.)
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Dec 5, 2013 23:58
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Cooked Auto posted:Actually there is one, Scourge the Hereic but it also ends on a pretty big cliffhanger if I remember right. Scourge the Heretic was the first book, Innocence proves Nothing is the second. Also the Enslavers are only revealed as the source of the problems in book two, and since the Enslavers were what attracted me to the book in the first place, I think I wouldn't have had much fun with the first book. gently caress, forgot the spoiler tags.
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Dec 6, 2013 00:13
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Libluini posted:Scourge the Heretic was the first book, Innocence proves Nothing is the second. Also the Enslavers are only revealed as the source of the problems in book two, and since the Enslavers were what attracted me to the book in the first place, I think I wouldn't have had much fun with the first book.  Had the order of the books mixed up. I'd say read the first book anyway because it isn't that bad to be honest.
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Dec 6, 2013 02:01
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