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2house2fly posted:How about "Shepard" The distinction between male and female is useful, though, and just calling them both Shepard doesn't help. The main gameplay example would be how not all romance options are available to all characters, but simply differentiating between them as two different characters and options is useful. Femshep is just a contraction of Female Shepard, it's not like it's in some way derogatory.
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Dec 6, 2013 20:28
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I already say "MaleShep" and "FemShep." Guess I'm superior to your unevolved human dilemmas.
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Dec 6, 2013 20:30
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I figured people say "MaleShep" around here enough that I've never seen it as a big issue. I don't know what goes on at Bioware Social, though, I don't venture to such places.
Lycus fucked around with this message at 20:43 on Dec 6, 2013 |
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Dec 6, 2013 20:39
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MooCowlian posted:The distinction between male and female is useful, though, and just calling them both Shepard doesn't help. The main gameplay example would be how not all romance options are available to all characters, but simply differentiating between them as two different characters and options is useful. Femshep is just a contraction of Female Shepard, it's not like it's in some way derogatory. Again, the problem isn't with the term itself. The small problem (that is part of a larger whole) is that for most people there's "Shepard" and "FemShep." The male Shepard is the assumed default while you need to add an extra distinction to identify the female Shepard. If the two terms were "MaleShep" and "FemShep" there wouldn't be any problem but for the vast majority of people using the terms, saying "Shepard" is automatically referring to the man. That's it. It isn't even something you need to really make yourself change right now. It's just a small datapoint that maybe will make people think about the language they use and how that may influence them. Crows Turn Off posted:I already say "MaleShep" and "FemShep." Guess I'm superior to your unevolved human dilemmas. And I know you're joking but this is the other side of the problem, the people who (seriously) believe they're better than those they think they're educating.
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Dec 6, 2013 20:40
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Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh no go back to Reaperchat
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Dec 6, 2013 20:42
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1)Anyone who unironically uses "SJW" as a pejorative is a dink 2)Anita Sarkeesian is pretty smart and is right about us nerds being awful people 3)but she needs to visit YLLS, don't wear big hoop earrings with a casual flannel shirt and jeans outfit.
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Dec 6, 2013 20:42
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There are sexist issues in the Mass Effect series around a billion times more germane than naval-gazing about the loving use of the term "femshep". like, you know, the entirety of Jack's "romance" in ME2, or some poo poo. But no, let's ask ourselves how interesting it is that people use "Femshep". I do not know.
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Dec 6, 2013 20:48
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I dunno man I'm pretty sure we've gone over that poo poo a million times, what Sarkeesian is addressing is more of a fundamental problem in how language use affects perception. Plus, I'm pretty sure she's never played more than 30 minutes of any game so asking her to do a teardown of Jack's ME2 romance is pretty laughable.
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Dec 6, 2013 20:51
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Alteisen posted:The mere act of the blonde shep winning was called sexist, it was really silly, probably the dumbest thing for people to whine about. The idea was that just by turning something into a popular vote you deign to conform strictly to the opinion of the statistical majority. By using a statistical majority as your key you're just going cough up a norm as the answer to whatever question every time, almost by the definitions of norm and statistical majority, with very little variance when enough people vote. In a culture that also respects diversity this method presents a problem, which seemed to be confirmed by blondeshep, the obvious one, coming out on top. That was pretty much the whole issue, very generally speaking anyway. HenessyHero fucked around with this message at 21:09 on Dec 6, 2013 |
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Dec 6, 2013 20:51
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1st AD posted:1)Anyone who unironically uses "SJW" as a pejorative is a dink I think it's useful to differentiate actual feminists from the tumblr style die cis scum types. Sjw specifically implies someone who is using social issues as something of an aggressive holier than thou contest, whereas femimist refers to people who actually take those issues seriously. But that's neither here nor there. I was wondering, were all the ME3 boxes defaulted to Maleshep? I always assumed they were reversable, and shipped to stores 50/50 on which Shep was facing out.
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Dec 6, 2013 21:07
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Can we make a list of all the sexist issues in Mass Effect and arrange it in order of which is most severe so people only talk about that one?
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Dec 6, 2013 21:27
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Fag Boy Jim posted:There are sexist issues in the Mass Effect series around a billion times more germane than naval-gazing about the loving use of the term "femshep". There are bigger issues, yes. But the fact of the matter is that "FemShep" is an interesting use of language in the context of Mass Effect and video games in general. I'm not saying (and I don't think anyone else is) that its some massive issue that needs to be addressed right now and should take up 20 pages of the thread but its just a small thing to note and think about, maybe.
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Dec 6, 2013 21:39
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Without wanting to drag out the cisgender derail, the problem is that sometimes you DO need to refer to someone by their apparent gender. We are discussing the female iteration of commander Shepard, and it's a handy abbreviation. I don't mean it to be diminutive or belittling, I think the voice acting is better, and renegade choices make you sound badass instead of just a bit of a dick. Because of this, I see them as slightly different characters in my head. Honestly, you'd think that the game would be hailed as progressive since it's the only game I can think of with a trans character, but they still get assaulted over tiny imperfections. As far as the blonde Shep goes, I played the trilogy as a blonde Shep. I was quite pleased when I saw the initial winning blonde because it was pretty much the same as the one I'd created anyway. When the game came out with a redhead in it, I shrugged and kept on with the one I'd already made. It baffles me that people got so angry over the default option in a game with a pretty solid and clearly signposted character editor (well, from 2 onwards anyway).
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Dec 6, 2013 23:15
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I never thought I would miss the ending chat Mobius strip but here we are.
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Dec 6, 2013 23:23
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Bobby Deluxe posted:Without wanting to drag out the cisgender derail, the problem is that sometimes you DO need to refer to someone by their apparent gender. We are discussing the female iteration of commander Shepard, and it's a handy abbreviation. I don't mean it to be diminutive or belittling, I think the voice acting is better, and renegade choices make you sound badass instead of just a bit of a dick. Because of this, I see them as slightly different characters in my head. People get mad because Mass Effect on the surface appears to be progressive but underneath it's shiny progressive veneer is a whole bunch of creepy poo poo.
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Dec 6, 2013 23:32
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MaleShep is the "default" or "normal" one because considering 82% of all players played a male Shepard, while only 18% played a female Shepard. So in this context using Shepard as the normal and using femShep as the deviation from the norm would reflect the facts. Regarding the hair color, I always preferred a red-haired Shepard, either male or female. Combine it with a red armor and it looks badass when using biotic charge.
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Dec 6, 2013 23:38
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Bobby Deluxe posted:Honestly, you'd think that the game would be hailed as progressive since it's the only game I can think of with a trans character, but they still get assaulted over tiny imperfections. I think you'll find that the Saint's Row series is actually the most progressive game series ever. Of all time. In every way. :notsarcasm:
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Dec 6, 2013 23:38
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Spikeguy posted:Speasking of femshep from ME3, can anyone explain why they went with a redhead. Didn't a blonde version win the fan vote leading up to the release? Well there is also the issue of the game engine doing a really lovely job of making blonde hair. One of the writers even put it in the expanded canon that blonde hair had been disappearing from the gene pool to try to hand wave it. But we do get to see Kahlee Sanders who is blonde in ME3 during the Grissom mission. Hah, get this poo poo from the in game codex. quote:Kahlee is of average height and build; her most notable feature is shoulder-length naturally blonde hair, which, as a genetically recessive trait, has become a rarity by the 22nd century. "Our engine can't do it so now it's a rarity!" I did vote for the blond originally because it looked interesting. But red head Femshep has been the default since the first game.
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Dec 6, 2013 23:47
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Bobby Deluxe posted:Without wanting to drag out the cisgender derail, the problem is that sometimes you DO need to refer to someone by their apparent gender. We are discussing the female iteration of commander Shepard, and it's a handy abbreviation. I don't mean it to be diminutive or belittling, I think the voice acting is better, and renegade choices make you sound badass instead of just a bit of a dick. Because of this, I see them as slightly different characters in my head. Maybe I'm an idiot and didn't notice, but which trans character are you referring to?
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Dec 6, 2013 23:48
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Jetrauben posted:Maybe I'm an idiot and didn't notice, but which trans character are you referring to?  What's really interesting is that there's a bit of fluff dialog (i think it's the stag party in the bar on Ilium) that implies that they only look like attractive humanoids to us - to Turians they look Turian, to Salarians they look Salarian and so on.
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Dec 7, 2013 00:15
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Bobby Deluxe posted:Liara explains in Mass Effect 1 that Asari are technically genderless. I had a whole paragraph in really carefully worded English, but I dropped my phone, and it doesn't really matter since Liara seems OK being addressed as 'she' so maybe she identifies as female and I'm actually being transphobic in labelling her as neutral Yeah that was the writers taking a piss at the creepy fandom. Also Liara is identified as female because Asari started as blue space elf fan service. Plus in ME3 there were some pretty nice portrayals of LBGT characters made by the writers so in that facet it's fairly progressive. But a Games thread about Mass Effect isn't the right place for this kind of wide discussion anyway so it would be better off in another thread or D&D before it bogs the thread down in SWJ shitposting.
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Dec 7, 2013 00:27
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None of this matters anyway because female Shepard is canonical and public opinion can get hosed 
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Dec 7, 2013 00:34
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Ciaphas posted:None of this matters anyway because female Shepard is canonical and public opinion can get hosed See? The Commissar knows what is up. Who are you all to defy the will of the Emperor?
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Dec 7, 2013 00:38
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Bobby Deluxe posted:Liara explains in Mass Effect 1 that Asari are technically genderless. I had a whole paragraph in really carefully worded English, but I dropped my phone, and it doesn't really matter since Liara seems OK being addressed as 'she' so maybe she identifies as female and I'm actually being transphobic in labelling her as neutral I'm not really sure classifying the Asari as "transgender" is really right, since you're applying a human concept to fictional alien biology. They're genderless (edit: actually, they'd be single gendered, which humanity refers to as "female" because that's the closest thing humanity has to what Asari are; that doesn't mean "female" is actually correct, it's just... "close enough" for laypeople in the Mass Effect universe to understand) yes, but that's different than transgender as it applies to humans. I don't think that scene was meant to literally imply that Asari are some kind of shapeshifters or anything, I think it was more meant to show how a species like the Asari, that can interact in that sense with every other species, would come to be seen across many different cultures, and what different cultures would see as attractive, etc.
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Dec 7, 2013 00:41
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On a brighter note, only 24 hours before this year's carcrashtastic VGX awards and a possible 'surprise' reveal of some kind of ME4 teaser thing to give everyone a whole new thing to moan incessantly about!
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Dec 7, 2013 00:53
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1st AD posted:on the surface appears to be progressive but underneath it's shiny progressive veneer is a whole bunch of creepy poo poo.
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Dec 7, 2013 00:54
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Even though at their root the Asari are kind of a creepy, fan-servicey idea, over the course of the trilogy they manage to do some interesting things with them, and the Asari cast is actually pretty varied-- we meet Asari nerds, tough Asari cops, cutthroat Asari businesswomen, Asari diplomats, Asari soldiers, Asari knights errant and Asari serial killers-- and I feel like their inclusion in the game led to more female characters (and queer characters!) than we might have gotten anyway, but trying to pass them off as a representation of trans people because of a bunch of sciencey mumbo-jumbo that's basically just the technobabble explanation for how an all-female species might exist is giving them way too much credit. I mean, I don't want to harp on Mass Effect too much, since it's way better than a lot of AAA games with similarly high profiles— female Shepard a.) exists, and b.) is pretty much on an equal basis with male Shepard within the game itself, as opposed to promotional material; there are a lot of female characters (uh, too bad about the costumes a lot of them wear or the camera's tendency to zero in on Miranda's rear end, though) with agency and varied personalities; by Mass Effect 3 there's a decent number of LGB (no T, though  ) characters, both in the central cast and just out in the world of NPCs you see wandering around, the human characters aren't all white, etc. This isn't Duke Nukem Forever or GTA V or something. But since this is the thread for discussing Mass Effect and not those games, it's probably worth it to look at it critically. I mean, probably about half the pages in this thread are filled with complaints about the ending, so it's not like the game is being held above criticism. 
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Dec 7, 2013 00:58
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I equate the use of FemShep to be equal to "Dark Side Revan" or "Nod Victorious Command And Conquer".
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Dec 7, 2013 01:09
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Rincewind posted:Even though at their root the Asari are kind of a creepy, fan-servicey idea, over the course of the trilogy they manage to do some interesting things with them, and the Asari cast is actually pretty varied-- we meet Asari nerds, tough Asari cops, cutthroat Asari businesswomen, Asari diplomats, Asari soldiers, Asari knights errant and Asari serial killers-- and I feel like their inclusion in the game led to more female characters (and queer characters!) than we might have gotten anyway, but trying to pass them off as a representation of trans people because of a bunch of sciencey mumbo-jumbo that's basically just the technobabble explanation for how an all-female species might exist is giving them way too much credit. Yes the writers that weren't up the Star Child's rear end made some good stuff with the Asari down the road, especially in Citadel or side quest areas. Rincewind posted:Mass Effect 3 there's a decent number of LGB (no T, though What do you mean no T? There are plenty of Turians.
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Dec 7, 2013 01:11
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I enjoy that Male and Female Shepard are equals, and for the most part not treated differently by any of the characters in the game (with some exceptions; romance options of course, and there's that merc recruiter in Omega that offers femshep a job as a stripper). I've been thinking about that though; was Shepard actually written neutrally, or does female Shepard just kind of do manly things (right hook right hook right hook) while also being a woman?
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Dec 7, 2013 01:28
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Ainsley McTree posted:I enjoy that Male and Female Shepard are equals, and for the most part not treated differently by any of the characters in the game (with some exceptions; romance options of course, and there's that merc recruiter in Omega that offers femshep a job as a stripper). And Harkin. Ainsley McTree posted:I've been thinking about that though; was Shepard actually written neutrally, or does female Shepard just kind of do manly things (right hook right hook right hook) while also being a woman? 
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Dec 7, 2013 01:32
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Come to think of it, are there any games that have trans characters (that aren't just heteronormist digs at 'funny ladyboys')? I meant 'trans' as in 'having transcended the gender binary' but I realise now that's probably not correct. I used to have a housemate who'd drive me mad by turning everything into a debate on third-wave feminism (despite not fully understanding it) so I've probably picked up some bad terminology along the way.
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Dec 7, 2013 01:41
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Ainsley McTree posted:I've been thinking about that though; was Shepard actually written neutrally, or does female Shepard just kind of do manly things (right hook right hook right hook) while also being a woman? They have the exact same lines (give or take some ad-libs by their respective actors) except in scenes that are inaccessible to one of the two as a result of romance quests - and even those scenes had the same dialog recorded by the other actor even though there was no way to see them. They even use equivalent canned animations at the same times. The biggest difference between the two characters is in their selection of love interests (which does, if you care, imply a difference between their respective outlooks, or if you prefer in the way they were written), and I'm pretty sure the romance quests they have in common proceed basically identically. There are also some minor things like different inflection in some lines' deliveries and a few gendered garments in non-combat segments, and of course the different fit of armor. Neither Shepard can have a good mustache, but only male Shepard can, if the player wishes, have a bad one.
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Dec 7, 2013 01:51
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Ainsley McTree posted:I've been thinking about that though; was Shepard actually written neutrally, or does female Shepard just kind of do manly things (right hook right hook right hook) while also being a woman? There's a couple of minor differences I know of, outside of the romances that is, one of which isn't even Shepard herself talking. In ME2 when you go to rescue Garrus on Omega, the rear end in a top hat mercenary recruiter directs you toward where strippers sign up (despite the fact that Shepard is wearing full body armor and has a plethora of weapons strapped to her back). Then in ME3 Shepard has a small bit of unique dialogue with Eve. It's not great dialogue but, much like "FemShep," its a nice sentiment.
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Dec 7, 2013 02:05
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Ainsley McTree posted:I enjoy that Male and Female Shepard are equals, and for the most part not treated differently by any of the characters in the game (with some exceptions; romance options of course, and there's that merc recruiter in Omega that offers femshep a job as a stripper). Kibayasu posted:There's a couple of minor differences I know of, outside of the romances that is, one of which isn't even Shepard herself talking. In ME2 when you go to rescue Garrus on Omega, the rear end in a top hat mercenary recruiter directs you toward where strippers sign up (despite the fact that Shepard is wearing full body armor and has a plethora of weapons strapped to her back). Then in ME3 Shepard has a small bit of unique dialogue with Eve. It's not great dialogue but, much like "FemShep," its a nice sentiment. In this instance if you take the renegade option Shepard pulls out her pistol and says she bets hers is bigger than the merc's which makes him laugh and respect her more. 
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Dec 7, 2013 02:08
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Trast posted:In this instance if you take the renegade option Shepard pulls out her pistol and says she bets hers is bigger than the merc's which makes him laugh and respect her more. I know, I like that moment too, and I really don't want to loop this back around again, but it still comes in a scene where the male Shepard is immediately assumed to be capable while a woman has to prove herself. And I know that's not the sentiment that they were going for when they wrote that line (ie. they weren't trying to create a moment where the woman has to prove herself to the man, they were trying to create a moment where a woman goes "Yeah? Well gently caress you, rear end in a top hat."), its just that taken with the context of the dialogue the male Shepard it probably would have just been better to keep things the same in that instance, at least to me. I do like Mass Effect, a lot, really
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Dec 7, 2013 02:38
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Kibayasu posted:I know, I like that moment too, and I really don't want to loop this back around again, but it still comes in a scene where the male Shepard is immediately assumed to be capable while a woman has to prove herself. And I know that's not the sentiment that they were going for when they wrote that line (ie. they weren't trying to create a moment where the woman has to prove herself to the man, they were trying to create a moment where a woman goes "Yeah? Well gently caress you, rear end in a top hat."), its just that taken with the context of the dialogue the male Shepard it probably would have just been better to keep things the same in that instance, at least to me. Agreed, he should've offered MaleShep a job as a stripper as well.
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Dec 7, 2013 03:11
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Fojar38 posted:Agreed, he should've offered MaleShep a job as a stripper as well. "Those assless chaps might really work for you, Commander." "I should have left you with the nuke..."
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Dec 7, 2013 03:45
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Kibayasu posted:I know, I like that moment too, and I really don't want to loop this back around again, but it still comes in a scene where the male Shepard is immediately assumed to be capable while a woman has to prove herself. I often hear people complain that a writer or film is sexist because of in character actions, but I think being female means you do encounter sexism, and it's part of a writer's responsibility to reflect the problems that a character deals with. If bioware created a pirate space station where slavery and strippers exist, and yet the dingy merc greets you by wishing you an empowered day as a strong independent womyn, I think there would be a bigger problem. In context of the fact that everyone else in the galaxy treats you as an equal, I don't see that particular scene as a problem because of the reply options you have. If there were no other female mercs in the assault, that might be a problem; but there are, so in context it's just one sexist rear end in a top hat in a backwards space station to me. The Harkin sequence in ME1 however made me uncomfortable, since you can't cleverly put him down as a paragon - your options are to either 'rise above it' and not challenge his behaviour, or threaten to beat the poo poo out of him. - To attempt to move things on, what were your favourite multiplayer soundbites? Mine would be a coin-toss between the krogan's "aww, they're dead" at the end of a round and the vorcha's "i'm alive!" after being revived. Bobby Deluxe fucked around with this message at 09:05 on Dec 7, 2013 |
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Dec 7, 2013 08:59
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It basically comes down to the same problem a lot of this kind of stuff does. The developers are going for realism but implementing actual realism would take an insane amount of time and effort and optional content and so the end result is that it's skewed towards certain things which are easiest to implement. You can't really make an undercurrent of sexism throughout sensible places in the game because that would require serious effort being put into rewriting how characters react to you. (Ironically one of the few games I can name that did this well is Persona 3 Portable, where the cast and supporting cast have markedly different reactions to a female lead over a male lead, including the wacky supporting buddy ending up being a bit of a sexist rear end and the standoffish female character being more friendly and welcoming.) I think That One rear end in a top hat is bad but I think he's bad because it's so hamfisted and low-budget. (I'd call it lazy but really rewriting the entire script is a huge and time consuming job, I can't say not doing it is lazy.) If you want a universe where sexism is still a problem then you have to actually have the writing to back it up... and especially in an alien-centric universe you really need to consider the various different mindsets races may have. Why is a Bataran sexist in the first place? I don't recall any discussion at all of them having a society where gender differences are a big deal. Wouldn't racism towards humans in general make more sense? They just went for "he's supposed to be an rear end in a top hat so, uh, sexist" and called it a day. If they put actual effort into it, it would stand out a lot less. A lot of ME's problem is just them not having the time or budget to really make the universe they want to make and they take shortcuts which end up giving you stuff like That One rear end in a top hat. Instead of just having a universe where every character has their own prejudices and own flaws and own sympathies (because that is hard as hell to program and write) you just have a universe where they occasionally throw That One rear end in a top hat in in an attempt to make it feel more gritty and real, but instead it just feels kind of hamfisted. And obviously this isn't just in the Male Shepard/Female Shepard difference. These little flaws show up in a lot of places. (Legion in ME2 is ripe with 'em.) It's just a matter of them not having the time or budget or memory space to do anything more complex... but I guess we'll have to see if the inevitable PS4/XBO Mass Effect game does any better. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 11:30 on Dec 7, 2013 |
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Dec 7, 2013 11:14
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