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ImpAtom posted:Because it's effectively the same splitting with all the same problems except the need to patch, but adding in the fun problem of Wii U games and Wii U w/ Gamepad games to further confuse people already confused by the Wii U/Wii. People are already confused to the point where most of them don't even know this thing exists. There is no stock of public opinion that they will be destroying or whatever. ImpAtom posted:Basically making it optional is not very different from removing it all together but with slightly different potential problems, plus Nintendo still has to make the pad (and thus spend money on manufacturing.) This isn't an argument, they can sell them at cost or at a profit. I mean, you have every right to think it won't help, but your backing of your idea that removing it won't help has essentially been 'because'.
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Dec 7, 2013 08:54
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icantfindaname posted:People are already confused to the point where most of them don't even know this thing exists. There is no stock of public opinion that they will be destroying or whatever. Confusion does not go back around to zero. Adding to brand confusion is harming even if there is already brand confusion. icantfindaname posted:This isn't an argument, they can sell them at cost or at a profit. That doesn't help if they don't sell and we're starting from the viewpoint of "people don't want the pad." Why would people suddenly buy the pad separately?
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Dec 7, 2013 09:00
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ImpAtom posted:Because it's effectively the same splitting with all the same problems except the need to patch, but adding in the fun problem of Wii U games and Wii U w/ Gamepad games to further confuse people already confused by the Wii U/Wii. Here is a list of Wii U games that can already be played with the Pro Controller. Compared to the list of all Wii U games, it's almost the same length. I think you're overestimating the capacity for confusion to overwhelm an impulse purchase price. Price... is a pretty important factor in whether people will buy it. Not having a gamepad around would only affect a few games since many of them already don't need it. The gamepad can also be de-emphasised in the future. $200 for a standalone console would be an acceptable price for many to buy it as a secondary console, as with the Wii. E: Fixed link AngryCaterpillar fucked around with this message at 09:04 on Dec 7, 2013 |
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Dec 7, 2013 09:00
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They'd still need to patch the games. Even a game playable entirely with the Pro Controller will currently still react to a lack of Gamepad communication.
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Dec 7, 2013 09:02
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AngryCaterpillar posted:Here is a list of Wii U games that can already be played with the Pro Controller. Compared to the list of all Wii U games, it's almost the same length. We had this discussion before. "Can be played with the Pro Pad" is not the same as "has all features with the pro pad." There are several which are missing features (The Marios, Pikmin) for example, and even a game that doesn't technically need the gamepad may not react well to it not existing at all. (Also you just linked the list of retail Wii U games, which I don't think is what you intended.) ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 09:08 on Dec 7, 2013 |
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Dec 7, 2013 09:02
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ImpAtom posted:That doesn't help if they don't sell and we're starting from the viewpoint of "people don't want the pad." Why would people suddenly buy the pad separately? You misunderstand me. You said that Nintendo would still have to pay to manufacture them if they sold them separately. No, they wouldn't, because if they don't sell then Nintendo doesn't have to manufacture them. They probably won't buy the pad separately, you're right, and that's just fine because neither they nor Nintendo will be paying any money relating to gamepads in that case. And the brand confusion won't have much effect considering how little there is to being with. You keep acting like they have lots to lose here. They don't. Supercar Gautier posted:They'd still need to patch the games. Even a game playable entirely with the Pro Controller will currently still react to a lack of Gamepad communication. If they can't patch something as simple as this without taking significant manpower away from other games then they have even bigger problems than we thought.
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Dec 7, 2013 09:03
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icantfindaname posted:You misunderstand me. You said that Nintendo would still have to pay to manufacture them if they sold them separately. No, they wouldn't, because if they don't sell then Nintendo doesn't have to manufacture them. They probably won't buy the pad separately, you're right, and that's just fine because neither they nor Nintendo will be paying any money relating to gamepads in that case. I have absolutely no idea what you're saying here. We're discussing the Wii U gamepad being sold seperately. If they sold it seperately they would in fact have to manufacture it icantfindaname posted:And the brand confusion won't have much effect considering how little there is to being with. You keep acting like they have lots to lose here. They don't. Nintendo is not currently going bankrupt. They are not, as far as we know, even remotely in danger of going bankrupt, of losing all their assets, of being bought out by a bigger company, or any situation which could rightly be described as "they don't have lots to lose." Increasing brand confusion can hurt them in the future, especially if they decide to use the Wii name again for a theoretical Wii Two or something even more saccharine and stupid. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 09:08 on Dec 7, 2013 |
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Dec 7, 2013 09:05
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icantfindaname posted:You misunderstand me. You said that Nintendo would still have to pay to manufacture them if they sold them separately. No, they wouldn't, because if they don't sell then Nintendo doesn't have to manufacture them. They probably won't buy the pad separately, you're right, and that's just fine because neither they nor Nintendo will be paying any money relating to gamepads in that case. Simple? How many changes would have to be made to Nintendo Land, Zombi U and Game & Wario? They'd have to be designed from scratch. As far as Pro controller games still requiring the gamepad, I don't know, maybe the firmware could be updated to "lie" to games that there was a gamepad connected even when there wasn't. I realise this is complicated as well though. It's not a simple solution, but I feel that somehow reducing the price to $200 is the best bet for the system.
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Dec 7, 2013 09:09
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ImpAtom posted:Nintendo is not currently going bankrupt. They are not, as far as we know, even remotely in danger of going bankrupt, of losing all their assets, of being bought out by a bigger company, or any situation which could rightly be described as "they don't have lots to lose." Increasing brand confusion can hurt them in the future, especially if they decide to use the Wii name again for a theoretical Wii Two or something even more saccharine and stupid. The implication that they would go bankrupt if they started selling the gamepad separately is pretty ridiculous. Do you actually think this? I'm trying to imagine this scenario where a product that is making nintendo zero dollars and has zero public presence starts selling a little less than it is, and nintendo suddenly goes bankrupt, and I just can't. How would this happen? Why would any of these things happen if they sold the gamepad separately? You keep implying this stuff without backing any of it up at all. They're already making negative dollars and every time this is mentioned people say they're fine and have tons of cash but this is what will bankrupt them? AngryCaterpillar posted:Simple? How many changes would have to be made to Nintendo Land, Zombi U and Game & Wario? They'd have to be designed from scratch. No I mean patching the firmware so you can start the console without a gamepad. Which is what the post I quoted said. icantfindaname fucked around with this message at 09:12 on Dec 7, 2013 |
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Dec 7, 2013 09:10
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AngryCaterpillar posted:As far as Pro controller games still requiring the gamepad, I don't know, maybe the firmware could be updated to "lie" to games that there was a gamepad connected even when there wasn't. I realise this is complicated as well though. It's not a simple solution, but I feel that somehow reducing the price to $200 is the best bet for the system. I don't disagree that a price drop would benefit the system. I just think (as I said above), it's more likely to come with Nintendo reducing hardware manufacturing costs and taking a greater loss on the system than via getting rid of the Gamepad, which is one of those things which sounds like a good solution but opens up a lot of new problems in the meantime. icantfindaname posted:The implication that they would go bankrupt if they started selling the gamepad separately is pretty ridiculous. Nobody said that. 
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Dec 7, 2013 09:12
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icantfindaname posted:The implication that they would go bankrupt if they started selling the gamepad separately is pretty ridiculous. Do you actually think this? I'm trying to imagine this scenario where a product that is making nintendo zero dollars and has zero public presence starts selling a little less than it is, and nintendo suddenly goes bankrupt, and I just can't. How would this happen? Why would any of these things happen if they sold the gamepad separately? You keep implying this stuff without backing any of it up at all. I think this is the point where I stop reading your posts. First you suggest that upcoming games aren't that important, then you show that you're not even reading posts before responding to them.
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Dec 7, 2013 09:13
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ImpAtom posted:Nobody said that. ImpAtom posted:Nintendo is not currently going bankrupt. They are not, as far as we know, even remotely in danger of going bankrupt, of losing all their assets, of being bought out by a bigger company, or any situation which could rightly be described as "they don't have lots to lose." Increasing brand confusion can hurt them in the future, especially if they decide to use the Wii name again for a theoretical Wii Two or something even more saccharine and stupid. You posted this in response to me saying that nothing particularly bad will happen if they sell the pad separately. Implying that yes, there are bad things that will happen if they sell the pad separately. Why would you post that if you weren't implying that they would go bankrupt, or lose all their assets, or be bought out if they do the thing your were responding to?
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Dec 7, 2013 09:15
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icantfindaname posted:You posted this in response to me saying that nothing real bad will happen if they sell the pad separately. Implying that yes, there are bad things that will happen if they sell the pad separately. Why would you post that if you weren't implying that they would go bankrupt, or lose all their assets, or be bought out if they do the thing your were responding to? No I didn't. Read what I said. I was responding to your comment about how they don't have a lot to lose. The thing quoted directly in front of that. My response was that they, in fact, do have a lot to lose because they are not in a situation where they are going bankrupt or in massive debt or anything like that. You somehow translated this to "if they sell the gamepad they will go bankrupt." ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 09:22 on Dec 7, 2013 |
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Dec 7, 2013 09:18
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icantfindaname posted:You posted this in response to me saying that nothing particularly bad will happen if they sell the pad separately. Implying that yes, there are bad things that will happen if they sell the pad separately. Why would you post that if you weren't implying that they would go bankrupt, or lose all their assets, or be bought out if they do the thing your were responding to? He was implying that they'd have to be bankrupt for them to have nothing to lose. See, I understood it.
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Dec 7, 2013 09:19
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ImpAtom posted:No I didn't. Read what I said. I was responding to your comment about how they don't have a lot to lose. The thing quoted directly in front of that. My response was that they, in fact, do have a lot to lose because they are not in a situation where they are going bankrupt or in massive debt or anything like that. They don't have a lot to lose by selling the gamepad separately. I was not making a general comment about the company and it's future, but specifically about that action. I'm sorry you misunderstood me. I don't think they do have a lot to lose by doing that. It won't cost them anything, their branding is already a tire fire, and there are great potential benefits. Sure, it might not help, but I don't see it hurting at all.
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Dec 7, 2013 09:23
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I think a pad-less SKU could work if they work on the system software first.. They could put out a update to not require the tablet to navigate the system menu's first, and make the classic controller pro work in Wii mode. Add in some rebranding - call the base unit (the console) the Wii HD, rename the tablet to be the Wii U - since that's what people think of it anyway.. It's not that big of a deal.. maintain a list of software inside the firmware that requires the tablet, and throw up an error if someone tries to play it without one.
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Dec 7, 2013 09:33
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All of this could have been avoided if they'd just called it the Super Wii. People would instantly have understood it was new.
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Dec 7, 2013 09:35
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The_Frag_Man posted:Add in some rebranding - call the base unit (the console) the Wii HD, rename the tablet to be the Wii U - since that's what people think of it anyway.. Upgrade to the Wii HD! It's the new console that's also not new and also not a Wii. It used to be the Wii U. But the Wii U isn't the Wii U anymore, it's the GamePad. Which isn't called the GamePad now. You may have heard the GamePad is not just a controller for the Wii. Well now it is! Sort of!
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Dec 7, 2013 09:44
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AngryCaterpillar posted:Upgrade to the Wii HD! It's the new console that's also not new and also not a Wii. It used to be the Wii U. But the Wii U isn't the Wii U anymore, it's the GamePad. Which isn't called the GamePad now. You may have heard the GamePad is not just a controller for the Wii. Well now it is! Sort of! If it's fully backwards compatible, then isn't the Wii U a Wii as well?
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Dec 7, 2013 09:50
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Look, we all know where this is going. It's going to be called the Wii Wii.
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Dec 7, 2013 09:51
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They're not going to sell the pad by itself until it's cheap enough that people don't think it's a portable system because right now it wouldn't cost much less than a 3DS or Vita.
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Dec 7, 2013 09:51
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Mister Macys posted:If it's fully backwards compatible, then isn't the Wii U a Wii as well? The wii is a gamecube
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Dec 7, 2013 10:21
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Mister Macys posted:If it's fully backwards compatible, then isn't the Wii U a Wii as well? The DS was backwards compatible with GBA games, and it took years before people stopped calling it the Game Boy DS.
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Dec 7, 2013 11:13
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I would love to see the gamepad sold separately, if only to see all the upset parents who buy it thinking it will work with the Wii.
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Dec 7, 2013 11:24
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Holy poo poo, the argument with icantfindaname reminds me of the days when I posted on the old Wii60 forum. Does anyone know how the situation is in Japan? Is there as much confusion as in America? In any case, I'll probably get a Japanese unit sometime next year because I don't think the lack of games issue is ever going to be an issue here. And in any case, is it really so bad if this thing becomes the new GameCube? I can wait for the next machine, though I admit if that one fucks up as badly I'm probably going to wait a full 4 years until I buy that one!
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Dec 7, 2013 11:43
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Neo Rasa posted:They're not going to sell the pad by itself until it's cheap enough that people don't think it's a portable system because right now it wouldn't cost much less than a 3DS or Vita. If Nintendo sold it with a pack in game, it would make the thing seem less expensive. It worked for Wii Fit. The ironic thing is not making the tablet controller standard would probably force Nintendo to start designing some games around it to make people want one. Nintendoland and ZombieU are the only two games I've encountered where the tablet controller offered something substantial to the gameplay and wouldn't be available any other way.
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Dec 7, 2013 14:48
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icantfindaname posted:Wait, what are the costs in removing it? If they don't patch the games the costs are zero. And do you think that cutting the cost by up to $100 won't sell any more consoles? The costs are not zero, and you're kidding yourself if you think that. Similar to the Basic 8GB model, they will most likely be buying back a ton of systems in the wild that nobody is buying. They would need to repurpose those systems into some sort of Game Pad less SKU in terms of packaging. Needing to fix the firmware to not require the game pad in a way that it still works, because it currently requires the game pad to be on. It costs money to reship those back out to retailers. Do some sort of packaging design and for a Game Pad being sold separately, shipping for that item, and then marketing efforts to show that the Wii U is now $200 cheaper without a Game Pad. Because if this thread has taught me anything, you guys get all riled up when Nintendo is not advertising properly. And then if that still doesn't drive sales, well then they are hosed and just spent a bunch of money segmenting the userbase of their system in half making things more confusing, and most likely putting the final nail in the coffin for the system. AngryCaterpillar posted:It's not a simple solution, but I feel that somehow reducing the price to $200 is the best bet for the system. Why not just drop the price to $200 and see if people bite? Certainly if people are not picking up the WIi U w/ Game Pad for $200, then they are not going to pick up a version without a Game Pad for the exact same price. Didn't a ton of people here say that one of Nintendo's mistakes at launch was making a basic model for $50 less? How many people bought the deluxe model simply because the other was the inferior model with less storage? As long as they are selling systems with the Game Pad, it's going to feel like the inferior model and it won't drive sales. If the Game Pad costs $80 in parts, the loss they take will be worth it as long as it actually drives sales. If they killed off the Game Pad anyway, it would be like they were doing the same thing as all those existing game pads sitting in boxes would be worthless and go into the landfill next to the ET games. They're still eating the cost on existing game pads made. Astro7x fucked around with this message at 17:30 on Dec 7, 2013 |
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Dec 7, 2013 17:26
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Ninty should release the stuff they got in the pipeline then just drop out Dreamcast style.
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Dec 7, 2013 19:49
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Their VGX thing: a new character in Donkey Kong  It was so bad that even the hosts were like "So...do you have anything more than this? People might be mad."
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Dec 8, 2013 00:35
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Even when Nintendo is given the floor to say something they don't know what to do with it. I've never seen marketing and promotion as incompetent as what this company has made in the last 4 years.
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Dec 8, 2013 00:36
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Maybe they're trying to purposefully scrw up so bad that expectations are set as low as possible for the next announcement they make.
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Dec 8, 2013 00:39
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Astro7x posted:If the Game Pad costs $80 in parts, the loss they take will be worth it as long as it actually drives sales. If they killed off the Game Pad anyway, it would be like they were doing the same thing as all those existing game pads sitting in boxes would be worthless and go into the landfill next to the ET games. They're still eating the cost on existing game pads made. The idea behind selling hardware at a loss is that licensing fees for the software make up for it. People buying massively discounted Wii-Us just to buy one or two Nintendo titles a year is just going to put them further in the hole.
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Dec 8, 2013 00:40
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That was a remarkably pathetic announcement.
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Dec 8, 2013 00:40
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Gonna see a Google Street picture of Robbie in Seattle walking forlornly past a Starbucks with a bindle over his shoulder with a Super Mario mushroom on the sack.
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Dec 8, 2013 00:41
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Rorus Raz posted:Their VGX thing: a new character in Donkey Kong Yo a bunch of us already made peace with the fact this was most likely going to be Cranky Kong getting crunk when the updated box art leaked a few days ago. There's always the rest of the month for impromptu announcements. Or there's the usual January meeting/directs that usually showcase new things for the planned year ahead.
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Dec 8, 2013 00:44
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Nintendo's back, and it's here to stay. We're comin' for you, XBox. Watch out, Playstation. This ain't your momma's console. Can you dig it?
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Dec 8, 2013 00:45
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Rorus Raz posted:Their VGX thing: a new character in Donkey Kong This is incredible. I guess they had to top the MEGATON controversy when people were super hyped for a serious business photo-realistic Zelda game and they debuted Wind Waker instead. They need to get people invested in the system at least, like even if they didn't start making a game yet just be like "Freespace 3 Wii U exclusive SUMMER 2015!" "Earthbound Unreal 3.0 FPS reboot" "Metroid Prime 1/2/3 remade in 1080p as one single huge game go to any planet any time you want!" Literally just make poo poo up, anything. When the super pandering gaming media awards show folks are calling you out it's time to look in the mirror and think about what you've done.
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Dec 8, 2013 00:46
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Nintendo at E3 2014: "What new titles? We have a Smash Bros coming out soon. What more do you want? See you next year!" Nintendo at E3 2015: "Didn't you like Smash Bros? What's the complaining for? See you next year."
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Dec 8, 2013 00:46
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I was unaware of the leak and still completely enthused. And I say this as someone who will totally buy the new DKC game when it comes out. It's just a terrible excuse for an announcement.
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Dec 8, 2013 00:49
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Guys, I have a plan to save Nintendo: If they just make another Zelda - a really good one this time - then people will be lining up around the block to buy a Wii U. It's loving foolproof; why am I not in charge of making these decisions for a multi-billion dollar company.
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Dec 8, 2013 00:50
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