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Schwartzcough posted:Maybe one of these surly seductresses?
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Dec 10, 2013 10:56
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THE AWESOME GHOST posted:I did think it's a bit funny that "religion is over" is symbolized by changing the main character's long flowy dress into short shorts with a hint of her butt spilling out The best way to symbolize being a free spirit is through lack of clothing. Makes sense to me. Barudak posted:Not a spoiler; FF7 has the most daring narrative construction in video games and would give most books a run for their money. To be blunt, I think FFVII benefited greatly from starting life as Xenogears. It would make sense since Cloud is so unlike the FF protagonists who came before and after him and has more in common with Fei.
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Dec 10, 2013 12:11
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So when I said Daring Narrative Construction I didn't mean the unique video-game only things like comparative numbers between Sephiroth and Cloud or the playable flashback although those are excellent things. What I mean is that there are two ongoing narrative features that dominate the first 75% of the game which are so well done most people never question them or notice the other ongoing narrative conceits. Firstly, there is the fact that Cloud is a fractured psyche character. Throughout the game he changes personalities and, if you notice the white flashes, changes voice and perspective. In a book this would be not entirely out of the ordinary and if it were the only presented feature we would implicitly not trust anything he has to say which is why the second construction is so critical. The second is the twin unreliable narrators in both Cloud and Tifa. By having Tifa appear early, be presented as being an authority on Cloud and then agreeing with the stuff Cloud says we trust Cloud. After all someone else knows he's telling the truth so we ignore evidence to the contrary of what Cloud presents often even when Cloud himself presents it. By using that double false perspective most players go through the game never realizing that Aeris is calling your poo poo out constantly, what Cloud really is, or my personal favorite that Sephiroth undergoes an identical journey to Cloud but fails. Its a fascinatingly designed story and while the writing isn't top notch and its dragged over huge swaths of time the primary tale is told in a very unique and misleading manner which in and of itself is a wonderful way to display the power of the villain.
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Dec 10, 2013 15:58
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Edit: I changed my mind about joining this argument.
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Dec 10, 2013 16:08
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You know, I never quite got why Tifa decided to go along with Cloud's story. All I remember is that she was scared he'd go bonkers or something and didn't want to say anything, but uh, he already was pretty crazy at that point.
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Dec 10, 2013 16:09
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People will put up with a lot of bullshit from those to whom they have sentimental attachments.
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Dec 10, 2013 16:11
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Rent posted:I really have to make an account to play FFVIII on steam? What the hell? And the account creation keeps giving me an error Yep! The good news is that if you ever manage to get the nonsense working you won't have to fiddle with it to play FFVII; I already had an account set up for FFVII and it automatically used it for VIII without me having to do anything. Also, get used to the phrase "Achievements have been synced to the server" in the corner because they sure as poo poo likes phoning home every ten seconds.
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Dec 10, 2013 16:11
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Dross posted:People will put up with a lot of bullshit from those to whom they have sentimental attachments. Basically. She's also aware that he saved her life but she's not certain how so she lets him spout bullshit.
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Dec 10, 2013 16:12
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Actually, unless you're talking about something in the present or before Nibelheim, Tifa thought Cloud never came during the mission with Sephiroth. He kept his helmet on the whole time due to shame. On that note, Cloud revealing himself and then throwing Sephirtoh into the reactor is the best point of the game. FFVII makes absolutely perfect use of its soundtrack and that scene is a prime example of it. Plus there's just the inspirational quality of how a low level grunt who failed to get into SOLDIER overpowered the greatest SOLDIER ever.
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Dec 10, 2013 16:19
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Barudak posted:Basically. She's also aware that he saved her life but she's not certain how so she lets him spout bullshit. She thought she died, and then woke up way the gently caress away without knowing who saved her or how. So when Cloud shows up claiming things went differently, how is she to know she's not the one remembering incorrectly?
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Dec 10, 2013 17:48
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Also Tifa had this massive codependency issue with Cloud.
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Dec 10, 2013 17:49
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MonsieurChoc posted:She thought she died, and then woke up way the gently caress away without knowing who saved her or how. So when Cloud shows up claiming things went differently, how is she to know she's not the one remembering incorrectly? Yeah, I forget she blacks out before Cloud ever arrives but she knows somebody saved her life and that Cloud can spin a good tale about how that happened and he does have the Mako eyes so maybe he really did make Soldier.
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Dec 10, 2013 17:49
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Also wasn't she almost as invested in the fantasy of him being a hero as he was? The whole thing goes back to their conversations as kids. I just realized how weird the whole thing looks from Tifa's perspective-- as far as she knew Cloud wasn't there during the events of the flashback, but a completely other dude (whom he later showed up dressing and acting like) was, and somehow he can accurately describe most of what happened. Then Shinra has the same "memory lapse" as Cloud-- they literally construct a different version of reality in the town afterwards. So it makes sense that Tifa doesn't trust her own perceptions there, and that she'd just kind of roll with Cloud's more coherent but wrong explanation. Then in the Crater scene Sephiroth can bully her into admitting the truth, because he knows that she knows that something hosed up and inexplicable happened there, and her real memory of it must be hiding somewhere under the explanation she's clinging to. That's pretty good writing! It's as much about people, about the way we understand events and ourselves through narratives and the abject fear of having those narratives fail, as it is about fantasy plot mechanics. I mean there is still a dude named Sephiroth and everyone's walking around with ten-foot-long swords but that's fine too
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Dec 10, 2013 18:28
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swamp waste posted:That's pretty good writing! It's as much about people, about the way we understand events and ourselves through narratives and the abject fear of having those narratives fail, as it is about fantasy plot mechanics. Which, importantly, is mirrored exactly in Sephiroth who, unlike Cloud who comes out of the lifestream and can mesh the failures of his life into a coherent person, gives up and becomes part of Jenova. In fact a large part of the game is him pettily making sure Cloud survives and can do what he wants because he still hates Cloud so. drat. much.
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Dec 10, 2013 18:32
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Then Advent Chuldrun comes along and says that Sephy will keep coming back to life as long as Cloud stays alive. Out of hate.
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Dec 10, 2013 18:45
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Screw that movie. Has anybody played the NES version of VII?
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Dec 10, 2013 18:48
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Gologle posted:Then Advent Chuldrun comes along and says that Sephy will keep coming back to life as long as Cloud stays alive. Out of hate. Much like how I pretend that Dirge of Cerberus doesn't exist Advent Children doesn't either because they are both titles that seem to wholesale ignore peoples personalities and traits as presented in FFVII. Also Dirge of Cerberus is really flippin bad even with the massive improvements for the US release.
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Dec 10, 2013 18:48
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Gologle posted:Then Advent Chuldrun comes along and says that Sephy will keep coming back to life as long as Cloud stays alive. Out of hate. I think that was Kingdom Hearts II, which is even worse.
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Dec 10, 2013 18:58
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Nah guys, Cloud totally didn't grow out of his jerk mode, and actually progressed worse into being a mopey rear end in a top hat. And Tifa just stayed behind in her bar instead of actively trying to help Cloud! And Barrett, an environmentalist, is going to become an oil tycoon! For the planet!
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Dec 10, 2013 18:59
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swamp waste posted:That's pretty good writing! It's as much about people, about the way we understand events and ourselves through narratives and the abject fear of having those narratives fail, as it is about fantasy plot mechanics. I mean there is still a dude named Sephiroth and everyone's walking around with ten-foot-long swords but that's fine too Do you think this was conscious writing on their part, though, or something that the writers stumbled into while putting together a haphazard plot? I'm more in the latter camp myself. I find it a little hard to believe that much character development consciously went into Tifa especially. 
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Dec 10, 2013 19:01
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Mustach posted:Screw that movie. What? Link to this please!
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Dec 10, 2013 19:01
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NikkolasKing posted:I think that was Kingdom Hearts II, which is even worse. Nah, I do remember Sephiroth saying "I will never be a memory" at the end of his fight with Cloud in AC. Why I know this, on the other hand... 
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Dec 10, 2013 19:02
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quote:... I won't be buying this game. Malibu Lightning is already going to haunt my nightmares.
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Dec 10, 2013 19:03
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Gologle posted:Nah guys, Cloud totally didn't grow out of his jerk mode, and actually progressed worse into being a mopey rear end in a top hat. And Tifa just stayed behind in her bar instead of actively trying to help Cloud! And Barrett, an environmentalist, is going to become an oil tycoon! For the planet! I just watch the scenes with Rufus in it, because turning him into the Shere Khan of AC's "Tale Spin" was the one smart character 180 they made in that movie.
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Dec 10, 2013 19:03
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Majorian posted:Do you think this was conscious writing on their part, though, or something that the writers stumbled into while putting together a haphazard plot? I'm more in the latter camp myself. There's too many clever little moments in VII's script, even with its stilted translation, to write off the whole thing as a happy accident. Though I can understand the impulse to do so, since SE lately seems to take so many pratfalls that they occasionally slip on a $50 bill instead of a banana peel.
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Dec 10, 2013 19:03
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Majorian posted:Do you think this was conscious writing on their part, though, or something that the writers stumbled into while putting together a haphazard plot? I'm more in the latter camp myself. I find it a little hard to believe that much character development consciously went into Tifa especially. Fingers McLongDong posted:What? Link to this please!
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Dec 10, 2013 19:04
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Oxxidation posted:There's too many clever little moments in VII's script, even with its stilted translation, to write off the whole thing as a happy accident. Though I can understand the impulse to do so, since SE lately seems to take so many pratfalls that they occasionally slip on a $50 bill instead of a banana peel. I don't know, man...I agree that there are clever, and even brilliant, parts in the script, but the central part of the story feels so aimless to me, in retrospect. Also Sephiroth is literally the most overrated character in videogame history.
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Dec 10, 2013 19:06
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Gologle posted:Nah guys, Cloud totally didn't grow out of his jerk mode, and actually progressed worse into being a mopey rear end in a top hat. And Tifa just stayed behind in her bar instead of actively trying to help Cloud! And Barrett, an environmentalist, is going to become an oil tycoon! For the planet! Considering the last source of energy was literally burning souls, I think oil is an improvement.
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Dec 10, 2013 19:06
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Majorian posted:Do you think this was conscious writing on their part, though, or something that the writers stumbled into while putting together a haphazard plot? I'm more in the latter camp myself. I find it a little hard to believe that much character development consciously went into Tifa especially. Theres way too much going on in the script competently such as the use of white flashes prior to true-Cloud comments, the obtuse but meaningful foreshadowing like the scraped knees, pretty much all of Aeris' retroactively major call outs, and how character designs for Aeris and Tifa are explicitly inverted compared to personality point to a game that was very confident on what it was delivering. I mean hell, the major obstacle in the game is Cloud v Tifa exploring their failed attempts to change their lives and the writing for that is absolutely on point for everything that comes before and after it. Majorian posted:I don't know, man...I agree that there are clever, and even brilliant, parts in the script, but the central part of the story feels so aimless to me, in retrospect. Also Sephiroth is literally the most overrated character in videogame history. People who like Sephiroth fell for the same bait as the characters and never got what true Cloud and Aeris are trying to say. It doesn't help that Aeris dying makes everyone think "thats the twist" when its actually fairly irrelevant in the grand scheme of the story.
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Dec 10, 2013 19:08
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Gologle posted:Nah guys, Cloud totally didn't grow out of his jerk mode, and actually progressed worse into being a mopey rear end in a top hat. And Tifa just stayed behind in her bar instead of actively trying to help Cloud! And Barrett, an environmentalist, is going to become an oil tycoon! For the planet! I always thought Barret's oil discovery was supposed to be tragic from an outside perspective; we understand how bad oil is, but clearly neither he nor anyone else in that world does. He seems like the kind of guy whose life is just a series of terrible bullshit. The problem with Cloud is that he isn't even a jerk for most of the game; he starts off as a sarcastic mercenary, but comes into the role of hero pretty quickly and remains a well-meaning joker to the end. Even when his entire life turns out to have been a sham and he has lost everything he thought he knew about himself, he turns around and says "I'm still me, and I've got a job to do" and just goes ahead and does it. No navel-gazing, just action. While I could understand him leaving Midgar and the people he cares about without a word in an effort to prevent them from contracting his soul-cancer, it really doesn't come off that way. It seems more like he just immediately became a brooding loner for no reason after VII ended, and people have been trying (and failing) to stay in touch with him in the years since. It's so far out of character as to be distracting.
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Dec 10, 2013 19:10
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Barudak posted:Theres way too much going on in the script competently such as the use of white flashes prior to true-Cloud comments, the obtuse but meaningful foreshadowing like the scraped knees, pretty much all of Aeris' retroactively major call outs, and how character designs for Aeris and Tifa are explicitly inverted compared to personality point to a game that was very confident on what it was delivering. These are actually really good points, and they're changing my perspective on the game already. I guess my problem with the Tifa-Cloud business is that, as I think back on the game, Tifa's part in that particular aspect of the game feels kind of tacked-on and artificial. It's almost like the game designers said, "Hey, Nomura's designed Tits McGee here, and we need to find a way to shoehorn her into the story so she's slightly less-obvious wankbait for the players." I might be a closet Cloud/Aerith shipper, though. 
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Dec 10, 2013 19:13
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Majorian posted:These are actually really good points, and they're changing my perspective on the game already. I guess my problem with the Tifa-Cloud business is that, as I think back on the game, Tifa's part in that particular aspect of the game feels kind of tacked-on and artificial. It's almost like the game designers said, "Hey, Nomura's designed Tits McGee here, and we need to find a way to shoehorn her into the story so she's slightly less-obvious wankbait for the players." Thats the thing though, she's really really important. She's the one Jenova/Sephiroth fucks with into having a mental breakdown to destroy Cloud's psyche. She's the one who omits the real version of events. She's the one who doesn't tell the group how hosed up Cloud was when she found him. Thats why its critical why they both are in the Mako together. When she repairs Clouds memories she realizes how badly she's hurt him just like he has inadvertently hurt her. They are both intrinsically flawed characters and the problem for both of them is that they won't admit it and instead cover for each other.
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Dec 10, 2013 19:18
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Yeah, I always considered her one of the most vital characters throughout the whole story, even more so than Aeris (not to say Aeris is inessential). Like Barudak and swamp waste said, Tifa's a guiding force for Cloud in so many ways, even before the story begins.
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Dec 10, 2013 19:22
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Mustach posted:Yeah, I always considered her one of the most vital characters throughout the whole story, even more so than Aeris (not to say Aeris is inessential). Like Barudak and swamp waste said, Tifa's a guiding force for Cloud in so many ways, even before the story begins. Aeris, from a plot perspective, exists to be the character who knows whats actually going on. When she abandons the party your thought as a player is "I'm going to get her back, she should fight with us" but from a hindsight perspective she has every reason to believe you would be just as malevolent and evil as Sephiroth and that you might as well be doing the same thing that wiped out her entire race. Aeris basically spends the whole time you play with her dropping various hints and callouts that the player ignores or doesn't see as such until later. Her death is the severance from a guide and fully puts Cloud's fate in Jenovas/Sephiroths hands as literally every action afterwards is steps towards the Reunion and delivery of the black materia.
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Dec 10, 2013 19:26
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Barudak posted:Thats the thing though, she's really really important. She's the one Jenova/Sephiroth fucks with into having a mental breakdown to destroy Cloud's psyche. She's the one who omits the real version of events. She's the one who doesn't tell the group how hosed up Cloud was when she found him. Thats why its critical why they both are in the Mako together. When she repairs Clouds memories she realizes how badly she's hurt him just like he has inadvertently hurt her. They are both intrinsically flawed characters and the problem for both of them is that they won't admit it and instead cover for each other. See, these are the sorts of things one misses when one clicks through large swaths of the dialogue.  All righty, you jerkfaces, you've talked me into replaying the drat thing sometime soon. Once I'm done torturing myself with my second playthrough the iPhone FFIV After Years. Why am I doing this to myself?
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Dec 10, 2013 19:27
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Majorian posted:All righty, you jerkfaces, you've talked me into replaying the drat thing sometime soon. Once I'm done torturing myself with my second playthrough the iPhone FFIV After Years. Why am I doing this to myself? We can go to an insane asylum together, because I bought it, too 
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Dec 10, 2013 19:37
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And don't forget that Barret's village made a living by mining coal. Lesser of two evils and all that and you can't do worse than Mako. Ya know, for me, The Compilation's biggest failing isn't what they did to Cloud or Vincent or even inserting Gackt. It's that they missed one of the things I so love about VII and that is its overall cast. All the expanded universe focuses on the Sephiroth or Jenova stuff and forgets about things like Barret and Corel, Red XIII and Cosmo Canyon, Yuffie and Wutai. VII made great use of its entire playable cast and I loved most of their little subplots. I wish we could have seen a higher quality Cosmo Canyon or something.
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Dec 10, 2013 19:44
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Coughing Hobo posted:We can go to an insane asylum together, because I bought it, too I'm grinding for a blue tail right now and it's so unpleasant yet I can't stop. I hate you, Square-Enix. 
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Dec 10, 2013 19:44
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Majorian posted:See, these are the sorts of things one misses when one clicks through large swaths of the dialogue. Seconded. You guys are making it all sound way more exciting than it actually is. I need a replay.
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Dec 10, 2013 20:26
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| # ? May 24, 2024 17:26 |
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Reading through these FFVII story posts is making me come to grips with my lack of comprehension when it comes to a lot of RPGs I play. I don't know if it's just a matter of playing them over time rather than binging or what, but I swear I lose the "point" of most RPGS. I just replayed FFVII last year and did not process the story really. Thanks for the clarification on all of this, definitely makes me want to replay it again in an effort to really absorb the story.
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Dec 10, 2013 20:32
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