|
Elentor's ongoing FFVII LP is really good at teasing out the plot points that most people missed and/or lost underneath the mountain of ill-conceived fanon.
|
#
?
Dec 10, 2013 20:52
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 24, 2024 06:33 |
|
|
FFVII's fairly intelligent and actually pretty subversive story is buried under a bad translation, the fact that it gained a ton of imitators without understanding what made FFVII so interesting in the first place, a buttload of fans misunderstanding it, and of course Square itself forgetting the point.
|
|
#
?
Dec 10, 2013 21:04
|
|
|
Narrative hierarchy of FF games: 1) FFVII 2) FFX gap all other FF games cliff FFVIII
|
|
#
?
Dec 10, 2013 21:07
|
|
|
I mean it still has huge flaws and it's all pretty silly on some level, but there's good stuff there too. At some point you gotta stop wanting to put a Pass or Fail sticker on things and just appreciate what you can.
|
|
#
?
Dec 10, 2013 21:12
|
|
|
Barudak posted:Narrative hierarchy of FF games: FFXIII has waaaaay more structural problems than VIII ever did. VIII tells a loving nonsense story in a bad way. XIII tells a simple story in literally the worst ways possible. Also I quite like IX's use of skits to further character development and such and probably would put it above X for that, but just barely. Then again X's pacing is loving Phenomenal so maybe it IS better than IX...
|
|
#
?
Dec 10, 2013 21:15
|
|
|
Barudak posted:Narrative hierarchy of FF games: I can accept this for all Playstation Final Fantasies, but you're on thin ice if you're saying this encompasses the whole series, bucko! 
|
|
#
?
Dec 10, 2013 21:15
|
|
|
ZenMasterBullshit posted:FFXIII has waaaaay more structural problems than VIII ever did. VIII tells a loving nonsense story in a bad way. XIII tells a simple story in literally the worst ways possible. VIII and XIII being worse is really a matter of preference. XIII attempts to tell a story of a group of survivors poorly while VIII wants to tell a love story poorly. Both of them have interesting universes that are never fleshed out properly with tons of loose ends, unexplored concepts, and nonsensical endings that have had no justification in the plot at all until that moment. I can just deal with XIII better because there are characters to latch onto in the cast while FFVIII gives you two terrible leads and then actively sabotages all other character development. IX is told very plainly and is basically purely functional with a lot of setting elements showing up once the game needed an ending and 3 characters who absolutely do not pull their weight narratively. X has incredible pacing and the story, characters who are all interconnected with the world, and one of the better and unique thematic story drives.
|
|
#
?
Dec 10, 2013 21:19
|
|
|
Majorian posted:I can accept this for all Playstation Final Fantasies, but you're on thin ice if you're saying this encompasses the whole series, bucko! The first 5 FF are kind of trash narratively speaking (Hell, 5 only got characters with Personality thanks to a Woolsey as gently caress GBA translation). 6 is pretty okay I guess, but doesn't do much with it's central theme other than repeat the message "Things Look Bad but We Can Still Move Forward" for every single WoR Plotline. It does well in what it does but 7 is such a bold move. You're entire plot is based around misinformation and literally crazy point of view characters. Cloud, Tifa, even Sephiroth himself are all a bit off their rockers and misinformed, trying to piece together what they could, and feeding one another's problems til the game's most important bit of backstory is a tangled mess of lies and counterlies. It's pretty great.
|
|
#
?
Dec 10, 2013 21:20
|
|
|
I will go to bat for VIII any day, but comparing series rankings is a deathtrap.
|
|
#
?
Dec 10, 2013 21:20
|
|
|
Barudak posted:Narrative hierarchy of FF games: Tactics. 
|
|
#
?
Dec 10, 2013 21:23
|
|
|
I truly believe this: XII had an excellent story.
|
|
#
?
Dec 10, 2013 21:24
|
|
|
Quality hierarchy of the Final Fantasy series: The best - The worst - Every game
|
|
#
?
Dec 10, 2013 21:26
|
|
|
Krad posted:Tactics. I was trying to stick mainline but just so you know I don't care for a single Ivalice title's story. Vagrant Story is the closest to approaching good but the others are all uniformly uninteresting. Edit: I'm totally wrong, Tactics Advanced is the best because playing the Villain is welcome change for FF games and good lord were you an rear end in a top hat in that title. Original tactics is just a middling political intrigue story stretched over hour after hour which admittedly is better than Advanced 2 and FFXII's "we're totally about politics, haha we lied supernatural poo poo is gonna show up and not get resolved!" Barudak fucked around with this message at 21:29 on Dec 10, 2013 |
|
#
?
Dec 10, 2013 21:26
|
|
|
ZenMasterBullshit posted:You're entire plot is based around misinformation and literally crazy point of view characters. Cloud, Tifa, even Sephiroth himself are all a bit off their rockers and misinformed, trying to piece together what they could, and feeding one another's problems til the game's most important bit of backstory is a tangled mess of lies and counterlies. It's pretty great. I think this really explains why I don't care about any of the characters in the game. You have to be a much better writer than people at Square have to pull that off.
|
|
#
?
Dec 10, 2013 21:27
|
|
|
Defiance Industries posted:I think this really explains why I don't care about any of the characters in the game. You have to be a much better writer than people at Square have to pull that off. Which (of their usual) pitfalls of characterization are present in VII though?
|
|
#
?
Dec 10, 2013 21:32
|
|
|
Defiance Industries posted:I think this really explains why I don't care about any of the characters in the game. You have to be a much better writer than people at Square have to pull that off. Except they totally did pull it off? Like, as a narrative it works and once you hit the lifestream everything falls into place and suddenly everything makes sense, even the weird poo poo like why Tifa played along with him or why Cloud was so like this old Zack guy/attracted to Aeris. Now, whether or not you LIKE any of the characters is a matter of opinion and I can see why you think they failed there but as a matter of structrued narrative they succeeded in setting things up and making them pay off.
|
|
#
?
Dec 10, 2013 21:33
|
|
|
Barudak posted:X has incredible pacing and the story, characters who are all interconnected with the world Kimahri is Freya but a blue lion instead of a riverdancing rat.
|
|
#
?
Dec 10, 2013 21:33
|
|
|
Barudak posted:Edit: I'm totally wrong, Tactics Advanced is the best because playing the Villain is welcome change for FF games and good lord were you an rear end in a top hat in that title. Now that is something I can agree on and more people should as well. Not-Ramza was the best main character in any of the Ivalice games, hands down.
|
|
#
?
Dec 10, 2013 21:36
|
|
|
Oxxidation posted:Kimahri is Freya but a blue lion instead of a riverdancing rat. He's by far the weakest character. Mechanically too. He still has a role to play as being a connection to the non-human elements, an opportunity for Tidus to (limitedly) interact with another cultural outsider, and within the story he is Yuna's first guardian, sent by Auron to watch over her and in what limited knowledge we have he's the reason Yuna became able to have the confidence to be a Summoner instead of staying a weeping orphan.
|
|
#
?
Dec 10, 2013 21:37
|
|
|
Oxxidation posted:Kimahri is Freya but a blue lion instead of a riverdancing rat. Gameplay wise maybe, but he's kind of a quiet father figure for Yuna, gives you a connection to the Ronso people which is a bit of the setting that you wouldn't have otherwise, and is actually the first to go along with Tidus anytime he put Yuna's safety over Church Rule. Hell, he's quicker on that draw than Rikku is just because he'd actually DO something as opposed to standing around and saying "BUT YUNIE, YEVON SUCKS!" I get the feeling Kimahri is not that religious and follows the rules only because he wants to protect Yuna. ZenMasterBullshit fucked around with this message at 21:40 on Dec 10, 2013 |
|
#
?
Dec 10, 2013 21:37
|
|
|
Oxxidation posted:Kimahri is Freya but a blue lion instead of a riverdancing rat. I'm pretty sure Kimhari has more lines than Freya does.
|
|
#
?
Dec 10, 2013 21:38
|
|
|
ZenMasterBullshit posted:Gameplay wise maybe, but he's kind of a quiet father figure for Yuna, gives you a connection to the Ronso people which is a bit of the setting that you wouldn't have otherwise, and is actually the first to go along with Tidus anytime he put Yuna's safety over Church Rule. Hell, he's quicker on that draw than Rikku is just because he'd actually DO something as opposed to standing around and saying "BUT YUNIE, YEVON SUCKS!" Yeah, in addition he's the party member that straight up stabs a Maester of Yevon with no compunction because he absolutely will not let Yuna's journey fail.
|
|
#
?
Dec 10, 2013 21:39
|
|
|
Barudak posted:Yeah, in addition he's the party member that straight up stabs a Maester of Yevon with no compunction because he absolutely will not let Yuna's journey fail. All the scenes in and around Bevelle are really good for this sort of thing. Dude was the only one to try and break into the Fayth with Tidus, had no problem with attacking the Church or fighting a Miester for Yuna. Never asked questions, just did what he had to. ZenMasterBullshit fucked around with this message at 21:43 on Dec 10, 2013 |
|
#
?
Dec 10, 2013 21:40
|
|
|
The least impactful playable character in X might be...Lulu? Can't really remember what she impacts the story as much as the other members.
|
|
#
?
Dec 10, 2013 21:42
|
|
|
ZenMasterBullshit posted:All the scenes in and around Bevelle are really good for this sort of thing. Dude was the only one to try and break into the Fayth with Tidus, had no problem with attacking the Church or fighting a Miester for Yuna. Never asked questions, just did what he had to. Thanks for reminding me. He's the character who blocks your access to the Fayth in all the other dungeons but when shits on the line the big blue lifts the gate up and makes sure Tidus gets through. He's not interested in matters of Fayth but in protecting Yuna and doing whats best for her. Tae posted:The least impactful playable character in X might be...Lulu? Can't really remember what she impacts the story as much as the other members. She's relevant because she's had multiple failed journies including one in which her summoner died instead of just giving up. She also functions as a way to understand Wakka better just like Wakka provides insights about her with both of them being small town people personally affected by the loss of a loved one and ready to go on a journey where they expect to die.
|
|
#
?
Dec 10, 2013 21:42
|
|
|
Barudak posted:Thanks for reminding me. He's the character who blocks your access to the Fayth in all the other dungeons but when shits on the line the big blue lifts the gate up and makes sure Tidus gets through. He's not interested in matters of Fayth but in protecting Yuna and doing whats best for her. Kimahri's actually one of my favorites on that cast and Bevelle is basically his time to shine in his own quiet way. I mean, He's another Social outsider for Tidus to interact with and quickly becomes one of the most accepting people w/r/t Tidus and his ideas. Hell, the scene in the forest after Bevelle where he lets Tidus pass and walks away is basically him saying "I trust you with Yuna." and for Kimahri that's a pretty huge deal.
|
|
#
?
Dec 10, 2013 21:43
|
|
|
Khimari is both Chewbacca and Worf, thus he is superior to Freya.
|
|
#
?
Dec 10, 2013 21:44
|
|
|
Mr. Maltose posted:Khimari is both Chewbacca and Worf, thus he is superior to Freya. He doesn't get his rear end kicked nearly enough to be Worf.
|
|
#
?
Dec 10, 2013 21:49
|
|
|
ImpAtom posted:He doesn't get his rear end kicked nearly enough to be Worf. No Purple Space Bazooka either.
|
|
#
?
Dec 10, 2013 21:50
|
|
|
Tae posted:The least impactful playable character in X might be...Lulu? Can't really remember what she impacts the story as much as the other members. Lulu's basically the Party Member/Walking Library. She's definitely a minor player past Operation Mi'hen though. Problem is I can't think of any scenes where they should have had her in a bigger role, especially considering she's the 'calm, collected one.'
|
|
#
?
Dec 10, 2013 21:54
|
|
|
ZenMasterBullshit posted:The first 5 FF are kind of trash narratively speaking (Hell, 5 only got characters with Personality thanks to a Woolsey as gently caress GBA translation). 6 is pretty okay I guess, but doesn't do much with it's central theme other than repeat the message "Things Look Bad but We Can Still Move Forward" for every single WoR Plotline. But see, this doesn't bother me. It's relatively loose and vague in terms of central narrative thrust, but that's because the central narrative thrust is secondary to the plot's character-driven nature. All of the playable characters, with a couple possible exceptions (I'm looking at you, yeti whose name rhymes with Schmoomaro), are absolutely fascinating and captivating. I've played this game through so many times throughout the years, and I never get tired of the various subplots, because so many of them are believable and well-thought-out, at least from a character angle. Not that I'd ever be caught comparing the caliber of Square's writers to that of Tolstoy, but in this very limited sense, FFVI's story has a similar feel to War & Peace to me. Its plot isn't super tight, but so what? I get immersed in the characters, their motivations, their relationships with one another, and I love every second of it. I feel considerably more connected to this story than FFVII's, personally.
|
|
#
?
Dec 10, 2013 21:58
|
|
|
ImpAtom posted:He doesn't get his rear end kicked nearly enough to be Worf. He does if you keep him in your party. Mechanics As Narrative!
|
|
#
?
Dec 10, 2013 22:01
|
|
|
Mr. Maltose posted:He does if you keep him in your party. Mechanics As Narrative! Pretty sure I clowned those two other Ronso. Good god Kimhari's overdrive is terrible.
|
|
#
?
Dec 10, 2013 22:07
|
|
|
Yeah, it doesn't make sense why he didn't get a multi-hit attack like everybody else or at least a couple of blue magics like Quistis' that are at least situationally useful. He's useless for postgame.
|
|
#
?
Dec 10, 2013 22:09
|
|
|
What are you guys talking about, FFX's story was terrible on every level.  For all that I liked the gameplay I could never finish the game because it kept punishing with ti'S terrible story and characters.
|
|
#
?
Dec 10, 2013 22:35
|
|
|
The problem may be with you, but if you could maybe elaborate?
|
|
#
?
Dec 10, 2013 22:46
|
|
|
MonsieurChoc posted:What are you guys talking about, FFX's story was terrible on every level. Well see, no that's wrong.
|
|
#
?
Dec 10, 2013 22:47
|
|
|
MonsieurChoc posted:What are you guys talking about, FFX's story was terrible on every level. Mmmmm naaaah. The actual plot and story arcs are good, its just the presentation that's spotty. The VAs are stiff and the dialog is a little on the nose (what else is new its FF) but overall its one of the better stories in the series.
|
|
#
?
Dec 10, 2013 22:47
|
|
|
a_big_dog posted:I truly believe this: XII had an excellent story. This. While I'm glad to see X's writing get the love it deserves, XII is probably my favorite FF story to date. Oh sure, it has its flaws, like the fact the party is mostly boring and nowhere near as interesting as X's, but it makes up for it with the best cast of side characters and antagonists. The Judges, Larsa, Cid, Al-Cid, and so many more. Plus, in spite of the fact most of them kinda sucked, Ashe and Balthier were excellent characters. Ashe is right up there with Cloud for me as my favorite FF protagonists because her journey is just so interesting. She is literally seeking to wipe an empire off the face of Ivalice and she has perfectly legit reasons for wanting that. And yet, she must abandon her justified thirst for revenge, and realize that her kingdom and her people deserve people through honor, not power.
|
|
#
?
Dec 10, 2013 22:48
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 24, 2024 06:33 |
|
|
MonsieurChoc posted:What are you guys talking about, FFX's story was terrible on every level. Its gameplay isn't good either. The cutscenes in X are so cringe-worthy. I'd be embarrassed playing that game with other people in the room.
|
|
#
?
Dec 10, 2013 22:50
|
|
