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Clues given by game mechanics are just as legitimate as clues given through the story, because P4 is a game.
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Dec 8, 2013 23:23
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Iceclaw posted:In fact what kind of grates me is how there is some kind of rose tinted glasses thing going around this game here, with how it's often regarded as some kind of lost golden age of the franchise. Even moreso when later games are criticized for having teenages leads, which IS has, and EP has to an extent, and having some "wacky" bullshit in them, because, gently caress, Eikichi and Lisa's feud in IS, and Baofu and Katsuya and Ulala's in EP isn't? I personally never said that it was some Golden Age of the series. I personally like P4 over P2 any day, (yes, teenage anime shenanigans included) because as I said before, the combat in both parts of P2 are simply rear end. That's not even talking about how bad the dungeons are, how they repeat areas and scenarios in EP and how they might have the worst sidequests in the history of the RPG genre. Hope you like tediously mapping out an entire dungeon! The difference here is that I vastly prefer the writing and cast of IS and EP to P3/4. If they managed to have P5 have the writing of 2 with the combat system of P4, It'd probably be my favorite game ever. I just take offense that you just blow off what's an incredibly brilliant script with little detail to back it up your claim and focusing on minutiae instead.
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Dec 9, 2013 00:26
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One of the things that I really like in (most of) Persona 4 is that it's not a huge scale, epic event. Too many games use a large scope to make the stakes seem large, and the Shin Megami Tensei series does this a lot, but it's hard to pull off, since the rest of the world is so abstracted. In Persona 4, the stakes are this one this one town and the murderer set loose in it. But despite the scope being so small and specific, the stakes are so large because the victims and potential targets are much more concretely presented. My only concern is that some of the victims, notably Kanji and Rise, do not have any development before they are thrown into the TV. Despite proving to be endearing and charming characters after they are rescued, the lack of a connection before hand dulls some of the impact of their peril. That said, the consequences had been made clear earlier with the first two murders and the personal connection is present with Yukiko. Plus, the idea of new party members and social links provides a mechanical incentive to want to clear the dungeons. The point remains, though, that despite having the smallest scope of any game in the Shin Megami Tensei series, Persona 4 has amongst the highest stakes because of the personal connections that are formed, which is possible largely because of the reduced scope. Persona 2 and 3 have these massive conspiracies and global implications, and I think they're handled well, but the rarity of Persona 4's scope make it all the more noteable in the series and in the JRPG market as a whole.
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Dec 9, 2013 00:33
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Mustach posted:Clues given by game mechanics are just as legitimate as clues given through the story, because P4 is a game. In some cases, yes. In this case, it was a clue through bad design rather than anything else. If you were meant to figure it out that way, they wouldn't have changed it in Golden.
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Dec 9, 2013 01:24
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I've only played Golden and having skipped most of that link, I had to go by other things, but it's still a fine clue for people that didn't pick up the other stuff. Besides, if it were any more obvious storywise, all of the characters would've looked rock-stupid.
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Dec 9, 2013 01:32
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I thought Adachi was a pretty great villain, especially in how he acts as a foil to the MC. Normally if you're a JRPG villain you get a set of badass skull armor, a couple scripted fights where you wipe the party to show how strong you are, a plot justification for your actions, and all the best lines in the game. Adachi has everything the protagonist does (hypercompetent out-of-towner gifted with a persona) but squanders it pitying himself and harassing women while the protag is out making friends with everyone in town and helping them get over their problems. It's a story where the heroes are cool people who are fun to be around (which is good given that we'll be spending 90% of our playtime with them) and the villain is a pathetic loser. I'd agree with those saying there's not much lead-up in the vanilla edition, but there are clues. Consider how every time a new suspect has been found Adachi is all "case closed" while everyone else is all "something's not right here I MUST SEEK ~THE TRUTH~" \/\/\/ sorry about that Microcline fucked around with this message at 03:41 on Dec 9, 2013 |
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Dec 9, 2013 03:22
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You might wanna tag that.
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Dec 9, 2013 03:30
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Meinberg posted:One of the things that I really like in (most of) Persona 4 is that it's not a huge scale, epic event. Too many games use a large scope to make the stakes seem large, and the Shin Megami Tensei series does this a lot, but it's hard to pull off, since the rest of the world is so abstracted. In Persona 4, the stakes are this one this one town and the murderer set loose in it. But despite the scope being so small and specific, the stakes are so large because the victims and potential targets are much more concretely presented. Except for the part where, around December (maybe a little earlier), the scope absolutely becomes global. If you fail, the fog covers the entire world, this after the really disturbing implications about its effects on the normal populace.
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Dec 9, 2013 03:36
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King of Solomon posted:Except for the part where, around December (maybe a little earlier), the scope absolutely becomes global. If you fail, the fog covers the entire world, this after the really disturbing implications about its effects on the normal populace. Yeah, and I really wish that part didn't happen, or if the fog was contained solely to Inaba. I would argue that it is the weakest part of the plot, and feels the most generic SMT out of the entire game. I stand by my general point, though, that plot line of Persona 4 is the smallest and most personal of the series. Though, I can see the counter-argument for Persona 2 being more personal. Nevertheless, I am definitely looking forward to seeing the route that Persona 5 takes in regards to this. Considering the success of Persona 4, I can only hope that it keeps things mostly small-scale and relies on character moments to provides stakes and dramatic tension, rather than apocalyptic dread. If we get apocalyptic dread though, that's fine, I know Atlus can do that well.
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Dec 9, 2013 03:43
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Meinberg posted:My only concern is that some of the victims, notably Kanji and Rise, do not have any development before they are thrown into the TV. Despite proving to be endearing and charming characters after they are rescued, the lack of a connection before hand dulls some of the impact of their peril. That said, the consequences had been made clear earlier with the first two murders and the personal connection is present with Yukiko. Plus, the idea of new party members and social links provides a mechanical incentive to want to clear the dungeons. Looking back, it would have been kind of nice to run into Kanji once or twice at school before his being kidnapped in May, and maybe have the NPCs talk a little more about Risette before her sudden announcement that she's taking a break from showbiz for a while. Kind of like how you had that one establishing scene with Mitsuo Kubo in April, and then could run into him around town up until Void Quest in August.
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Dec 9, 2013 03:45
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Regarding P4 ending I found Izanami's involvement more problematic than Adachi's reveal. Unlike Adachi that got here an there 'clues' to make more credible his freakout, Izanami comes from loving nowhere with the only foreshadowing being the lecture on Gekko High
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Dec 9, 2013 04:19
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Dark_Tzitzimine posted:Regarding P4 ending Izanami is foreshadowed from the moment your protagonist gets his first Persona. It's just a fairly straightforward mythological foreshadowing as opposed to story foreshadowing.
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Dec 9, 2013 04:32
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Microcline posted:I'd agree with those saying there's not much lead-up in the vanilla edition, but there are clues. Consider how every time a new suspect has been found Adachi is all "case closed" while everyone else is all "something's not right here I MUST SEEK ~THE TRUTH~" The thing about this though is that Adachi makes it very clear later that he was fine with his game going on for quite a while and even encouraged it. This really screams more of him just playing the idiot cop rather than trying to wrap up the case ASAP. Now, as much as I've said Adachi is not really handled well as the villain in terms of the story, he is actually a really good thematic opposition to Yu for all of the reasons you listed. He's really flat for most of the game and only really becomes enjoyable when he drops the ruse, unfortunately this is a problem with a lot of characters in the game as most of their development doesn't happen until their dungeons and Adachi's whole story isn't even really alluded to until his boss fight and Izanami happens. Which is a really bad time to give that character any sort of depth, but he has it and it goes a long way towards making him a bit more than just the villain being dropped at that moment. I like Adachi a lot, even in Vanilla P4 he was a fun character who I was interested in rather than put off by because there's so little you know about him, but you're given enough at the end of the game to make you curious and Golden did it justice with his awesome loving S. link. Iceclaw posted:So, what you are saying is that you disregarded clues and let's be honest, he gets really suspect in november, what with the callousness and apathy toward Nanako dying, and it's somehow the game's fault for having no build up? While not perfect, I found him servicable, even if you end up catching him by application of "when you remove the impossible, whatever remains is the truth. Dropping the actual real reasons to doubt him near the end of the game is a terrible way to end a mystery story. All of the reasons you have to believe he's the killer prior to that month are all circumstantial and were all just as easily attributed to other people. Him being a bumbling detective who leaks secrets is not actual evidence, that could just as easily be stupidity on his part. It's only in November when he gets suspicious and the worst thing he does in November is not react to Nanako's death, which again could just be him steeling himself for Dojima since those two did actually value each other's realtionship. The most damning thing Adachi would have against him is the letter, which is again, circumstantial at best and was attributed to Nametame prior to the hopsital. I'm not saying everything Adachi has to do had to be suspicious, but you need something more indicative of his involvement with the murders than conjection. As much as I'm talking about this, I don't even really care that much about the Detective Side of P4's story anyways, it's a character driven story. How the plot progresses and the buildup to the villain don't really matter as much as the characters developing and forming a bond, it's really good at that. It's just that P4 is not a great detective and its villain is not well handled in terms of the story is what I'm talking about. Dark_Tzitzimine posted:Regarding P4 ending Izanami has quite a bit of build up actually. The handshake that disorients the main character (The controller even rumbles), the figure in the Fog at the start of the game, the Gas Attendant's preference for dark and rainy weather, the aforementioned lecture, and the loose ends not tied up by Ameno. Captain Baal fucked around with this message at 04:39 on Dec 9, 2013 |
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Dec 9, 2013 04:34
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I thought the thing that damned Adachi was making a comment about Namatame tossing people in the TV, which would have been impossible for someone to even guess unless they knew what was going on. It's what clued Naoto off at least.Microcline posted:I thought Adachi was a pretty great villain, especially in how he acts as a foil to the MC. The villain also weirdly manages to be a foil to Yosuke. He's also an out-of-towner and, like Adachi, really resented the fact. If he hadn't met the protagonist and faced his shadow, I could see Yosuke becoming similar, though not quite to the same degree. CandyCrazy fucked around with this message at 05:04 on Dec 9, 2013 |
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Dec 9, 2013 05:01
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I don't remember exactly how all the endgame stuff went down but wasn't Adachi around when Narukami was bust out of police station by the rest of the scooby gang? While making the deduction that Namatame was the kidnapper, they almost definitely would've mentioned the TV thing because of his MO involving one in a delivery truck and all. Were it not for that scene coming after fingering him as the culprit in the first place, Adachi could've (at least tried to) pass it off as something he heard from the gang at that time or whatever.
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Dec 9, 2013 05:14
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I just remembered there's an LP in the archive, so I checked it and I was mistaken. There's no mention of the TV in the confrontation. What clued Naoto in was:quote:To tell the truth, Adachi-san, I've been fixated on something you once said.
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Dec 9, 2013 05:45
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Which he could have easily worked his way out by noting that Naoto is a world famous Genius Detective Person and since she said there were more unreported cases, he believed her. That being said, Adachi being not as clever as he thinks that he is, that's the cornerstone of his downfall. Since he is easily unnerved and not great at thinking on his feet he screwed up, and the rest is history
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Dec 10, 2013 17:29
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DreamShipWrecked posted:Which he could have easily worked his way out by noting that Naoto is a world famous Genius Detective Person and since she said there were more unreported cases, he believed her. Yeah, I thought it was a weird note to catch him on, but his reaction is what damns him more than anything. But the nice thing is that, with knowledge of who the true killer is, replaying the game lets you pick up on a LOT of foreshadowing that you don't even notice since you're not actually looking for it. It's as simple as listening to a voice acted line rather than just reading it. There's points where the voice actor changes his voice to more sinister tones or emphasis when, for a second, the facade cracks.
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Dec 10, 2013 17:37
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The stake out at the tofu shop and early on when he walks on you talking about how "it's not going too bad" are especially close to how Adachi really is.
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Dec 10, 2013 17:43
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There's a little bit more info out about the new Persona games. P4D info http://digifreaks.tumblr.com/post/68974091681/persona-4-dancing-all-night-4gamer-information PersonaQ Info http://digifreaks.tumblr.com/post/68972322509/persona-q-shadow-of-the-labyrinth-4gamer
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Dec 10, 2013 20:59
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Dehry posted:There's a little bit more info out about the new Persona games. It's weird that (PQ spoilers) it only mentions Minato and the upperclassmen for P3, and a similarly limited group for 4. Unlock the others, I suppose?
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Dec 10, 2013 21:31
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I'm gonna be disappointed when Persona Q doesn't have Labrys because my dream party is maximum robots and dogs. Or a robot dog.
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Dec 10, 2013 21:42
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Rise shows up in a screenshot so I wouldn't be concerned those are all the characters.
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Dec 10, 2013 21:48
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 The EO artstyle is so perfect for this game. 
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Dec 10, 2013 21:58
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I can't believe people were comparing that garbage-rear end derivative chibi art style to Windwaker in this thread.
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Dec 10, 2013 22:07
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epitasis posted:I can't believe people were comparing that garbage-rear end derivative chibi art style to Windwaker in this thread. People were comparing it to Wind Waker because some people are getting really really mad about something completely trivial and stupid, just like they did with Wind Waker's graphics.
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Dec 10, 2013 23:04
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epitasis posted:I can't believe people were comparing that garbage-rear end derivative chibi art style to Windwaker in this thread.
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Dec 10, 2013 23:15
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projecthalaxy posted:It's weird that (PQ spoilers) it only mentions Minato and the upperclassmen for P3, and a similarly limited group for 4. Unlock the others, I suppose? I find it weirder that the game seems to be chronologically confused. It apparently takes place during Persona 3, but features the Persona 4 characters who already had their adventure. I'm guessing time travel shenanigans, judging by all of the clock imagery in the previews.
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Dec 11, 2013 01:01
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The Unholy Ghost posted:I find it weirder that the game seems to be chronologically confused. It apparently takes place during Persona 3, but features the Persona 4 characters who already had their adventure. I'm guessing time travel shenanigans, judging by all of the clock imagery in the previews. It takes place midgame for both P3 and P4.
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Dec 11, 2013 01:06
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...isn't Persona Q going to be non-canon? I didn't even bother trying to think of how it would fit in the timeline, because I just assumed it was going to be handwaved away with no thought whatsoever.
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Dec 11, 2013 01:21
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Nate RFB posted:...isn't Persona Q going to be non-canon? I didn't even bother trying to think of how it would fit in the timeline, because I just assumed it was going to be handwaved away with no thought whatsoever. Yes, this is correct. However, Project Persona f is canon...
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Dec 11, 2013 03:44
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Nate RFB posted:...isn't Persona Q going to be non-canon? I didn't even bother trying to think of how it would fit in the timeline, because I just assumed it was going to be handwaved away with no thought whatsoever. Why do you think the investigation team mimics the Persona 3 characters when they get the Gekkou uniforms? Vanilla P4 didn't have a beach event or a band event and they managed to cram it into the regular days. They picked a time where both games really don't have a lot going on. In P3 there is a typhoon and the MC sleeps the whole time, or at least it's what he remembers. In Persona 4, that group date cafe was going bad already, so why not have an apocalyptic tower come out of nowhere? Shadows have already been shown to be able to affect memory (Aigis and MC are the only ones to remember the Dark Hour in the post game.) Just do that again when the tower vanishes and then have them remember again in P4A Suplex (we still don't have the story mode) and it's complete.
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Dec 11, 2013 04:06
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oblomov posted:Yes, this is correct. However, Project Persona f is canon... Which it's the most important game in years.
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Dec 11, 2013 04:15
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Dehry posted:Why do you think the investigation team mimics the Persona 3 characters when they get the Gekkou uniforms?
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Dec 11, 2013 04:18
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I think that he meant that considering that the Golden retconned certain days to make room for the band and beach events, they can do the same thing for this game. And preted the characters have forgotten about it.
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Dec 11, 2013 09:21
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Iceclaw posted:I think that he meant that considering that the Golden retconned certain days to make room for the band and beach events, they can do the same thing for this game. And preted the characters have forgotten about it. The characters of P4 actually meet each other after the entire story of P3 has wrapped up, but the protagonist of P3 is in there. It doesn't make sense within what we know, I'm pretty sure they'll handwave it away. Also you can start as P3 or P4 team with completely different stories it seems
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Dec 11, 2013 09:39
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I don't think anyone is asking the important questions for Q, like will there be a chase sequence where everyone is running around a series of 25th hour/TV world doors or is Rei and Teddie this game's Shaggy and Scooby Doo?
Crabtree fucked around with this message at 10:06 on Dec 11, 2013 |
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Dec 11, 2013 10:04
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THE AWESOME GHOST posted:The characters of P4 actually meet each other after the entire story of P3 has wrapped up, but the protagonist of P3 is in there. It doesn't make sense within what we know, I'm pretty sure they'll handwave it away. It's a time travel story. It simultaneously takes place during the middle of Persona 3 and the middle of Persona 4.
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Dec 11, 2013 10:20
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DarkHamsterlord posted:It's a time travel story. It simultaneously takes place during the middle of Persona 3 and the middle of Persona 4. Yeah but because it's time travel you don't need to even justify it in that case. It time traveled out of existence and only happened in this game oops!
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Dec 11, 2013 11:48
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I guess as far as I'm concerned when you throw "time travel" and "it was all a dream / they were mind wiped afterwards" (and do we even know for sure that's what they're using?) together that is just a roundabout way of saying it is non-canon. Or at least completely irrelevant. You can make anything fit if you go this route. The point of Persona Q is "hey what if we took our most popular property and threw it into the Etrian Odyssey engine? gently caress yeah let's milk this fucker even more" and nothing more. This not to say it won't be a lot of fun anyway. Nate RFB fucked around with this message at 15:29 on Dec 11, 2013 |
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Dec 11, 2013 15:21
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