|
Obdicut posted:building a giant fire next to the walls How does that work as a siege weapon?
|
#
?
Dec 12, 2013 01:44
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 8, 2024 08:55 |
|
|
walking posted:How does that work as a siege weapon? If I recall correctly, it weakens the wall by drying out any mortar(?) and making any stone that have water in them crack.
|
|
#
?
Dec 12, 2013 01:46
|
|
|
Vinegar or piss + heat will make some kinds of stone shatter. Depending on the stone, it'll get brittle under heat; sandstone, for instance, crumbles above about 900 degrees. That was what happened to the Dresdner Frauenkirche, which was never directly damaged.
|
|
#
?
Dec 12, 2013 01:54
|
|
|
veekie posted:Could be to supplement ladder assaults maybe? Establish an alternate route up the walls that weren't as easy to remove as ladders, and more portable than siege towers. Not as easy to remove? Tar, oil, water, rocks, arrows...
|
|
#
?
Dec 12, 2013 02:46
|
|
|
Don't forget about pigs!
|
|
#
?
Dec 12, 2013 03:04
|
|
|
Obdicut posted:It doesn't seem like the kind of technique you'd really have to export guys for, or that would be hard to come up with on your own. I also don't know that I've ever heard of this in any source--wouldn't it be defeated by having a simple overhang? If most of your army comes from a flat country, you're not going to have many expert rock climbers available for that sort of thing. Why spend years training your own wall-climbers for a suicide mission when you can just hire a bunch of mercenaries from a mountainous region who already have years of experience climbing sheer cliffs to collect eggs from bird nests or whatever?
|
|
#
?
Dec 12, 2013 03:38
|
|
|
Griz posted:If most of your army comes from a flat country, you're not going to have many expert rock climbers available for that sort of thing. Why spend years training your own wall-climbers for a suicide mission when you can just hire a bunch of mercenaries from a mountainous region who already have years of experience climbing sheer cliffs to collect eggs from bird nests or whatever? But why do the wall-climbing thing at all? If you run into a wall that has the wrong kind of mortar and stones, you're screwed, if you run into one with an overhang, you're screwed, and I don't see how it's at all superior to ladders.
|
|
#
?
Dec 12, 2013 04:21
|
|
|
Obdicut posted:But why do the wall-climbing thing at all? If you run into a wall that has the wrong kind of mortar and stones, you're screwed, if you run into one with an overhang, you're screwed, and I don't see how it's at all superior to ladders. A few guys with rope ladders and hammers are less obvious and faster moving than a lot of guys hauling a giant ladder, and a rope nailed to the wall would be a lot harder to completely remove from above than a ladder where you can just shove it off with a long pole. Also if the castle/city walls are built into the local terrain, there's probably at least one spot where the architect didn't bother with the full overhang and murder holes setup because they thought being on top of a huge vertical cliff would be good enough.
|
|
#
?
Dec 12, 2013 05:19
|
|
|
Griz posted:A few guys with rope ladders and hammers are less obvious and faster moving than a lot of guys hauling a giant ladder, and a rope nailed to the wall would be a lot harder to completely remove from above than a ladder where you can just shove it off with a long pole. I'm pouring pitch on your ropes and lighting you on fire. Enjoy. It's also really not that inconspicuous...the defenders are actively looking for people running at the walls, because engineers with explosives or fire are dangerous, and they don't move in large groups carrying ladders. Griz posted:
A lot of Europe doesn't have terrain like that. And I can't think of a single example, outside of movies, where someone gained control of a castle by doing that.
|
|
#
?
Dec 12, 2013 05:28
|
|
|
Let us not forget the guy who got into a castle by climbing up the latrine pipe. I forget who but it was in that book Castle!
|
|
#
?
Dec 12, 2013 06:57
|
|
|
Sexgun Rasputin posted:Don't forget about pigs! Look dude, we all remember your mother.
|
|
#
?
Dec 12, 2013 07:57
|
|
|
Frostwerks posted:Look dude, we all remember your mother. And she remembers you, freak. Anyway earlier in the thread we were talking about awesome dumb medieval movies and I brought up Ironclad and the scene where King John herds a bunch of live pigs under a castle and sets them on fire. The heat from their burning fat cracks the foundation and it collapses. The movie is generally not even a little historically accurate but Railtus chimed in to say that yeah King John specifically requested pigs for that stated purpose for that siege but whether the pigs were alive when he set them on fire is unknown. Or something to that effect. Pretty freakin  either wayOh yeah Railtus did you ever watch that show Vikings?
|
|
#
?
Dec 12, 2013 08:16
|
|
|
a travelling HEGEL posted:Vinegar or piss + heat will make some kinds of stone shatter. Timur had fires set up to a city's wall (can't recall which one. Damascus?) and rapidly cooled the stone by having the men pour vinegar on it.
|
|
#
?
Dec 12, 2013 09:13
|
|
|
Godholio posted:I'm pouring pitch on your ropes and lighting you on fire. Enjoy. It's also really not that inconspicuous...the defenders are actively looking for people running at the walls, because engineers with explosives or fire are dangerous, and they don't move in large groups carrying ladders. Probably, yeah, but if the walls are poorly manned, or not as well designed(designing overhangs and such take money after all), it might grant a small advantage. If they're attacking chinese cities, a fortified city can't have the same kind of defensive depth as a proper castle, partly due to the sheer area covered, and partly due to the accessibility needs for non-wartime use. And really, there is simply no easy way to assault a well built, supplied and manned fortification. That's kind of the whole point of fortifications.
|
|
#
?
Dec 12, 2013 09:52
|
|
|
Godholio posted:A lot of Europe doesn't have terrain like that. And I can't think of a single example, outside of movies, where someone gained control of a castle by doing that. There's Alexander's siege of the Sogdian Rock. But then it's a story about Alexander the Great so it has a high likelihood of being made up.
|
|
#
?
Dec 12, 2013 12:46
|
|
|
Griz posted:A few guys with rope ladders and hammers are less obvious and faster moving than a lot of guys hauling a giant ladder, and a rope nailed to the wall would be a lot harder to completely remove from above than a ladder where you can just shove it off with a long pole. I don't think that climbing a wall while hammering in staples or whatever is actually faster. And you can get the same 'hard-to-shove' effect but just using a ladder that doesn't quite go all the way to the top. Also, climbing ropes or rope ladders that are hard up against the face of a wall would completely suck if there was anyone else climbing it at the same time. Is there any actual evidence of this ever happening? What I'm familiar with is that with very small walls, grappling hooks would be thrown over so people could swarm up, but that's more 'Vikings attacking a coastal town', not 'army attacking a big gently caress-off castle'.
|
|
#
?
Dec 12, 2013 13:37
|
|
|
Obdicut posted:I don't think that climbing a wall while hammering in staples or whatever is actually faster. And you can get the same 'hard-to-shove' effect but just using a ladder that doesn't quite go all the way to the top. Also, climbing ropes or rope ladders that are hard up against the face of a wall would completely suck if there was anyone else climbing it at the same time. It's mentioned in the context of attacking Chinese fortified cities.
|
|
#
?
Dec 12, 2013 15:03
|
|
|
veekie posted:It's mentioned in the context of attacking Chinese fortified cities. Mentioned where?
|
|
#
?
Dec 12, 2013 23:00
|
|
|
Existing Chinese fortifications are bit less steep and tall than European castles. Climbing them isn't far-fetched, but they are Ming-dynasty constructions, so I don't know if the Mongols encountered similar walls. Also, the wall-climbers are, so far, completely unsourced.
|
|
#
?
Dec 12, 2013 23:20
|
|
|
walking posted:How does that work as a siege weapon? Sorry, I missed this. Other people have covered it already, but there are some forms of stone and/or mortar that are vulnerable to heat, and what they're hoping for is that the wall shifts and sags or that some stones crack. In addition, it drives the defenders away from that part of the walls so you can build up close to them, start a tunnel, etc. Finally, many castles had wooden brattices built out from the top to cover dead spots revealed only after the castle was built, so obviously setting fire to that is good for you.
|
|
#
?
Dec 12, 2013 23:27
|
|
|
Obdicut posted:Mentioned where? Earlier in the thread, where it was said that the mongols hired siege engineers and climbers to invade china.
|
|
#
?
Dec 13, 2013 00:42
|
|
|
The Chinese were big on rammed earth fortifications since they were cheap if you had corvee labor and good enough for a lot of situations. That's why a lot of the great wall in the west is a crumbling pile of dirt, it was always a pile of dirt. Much easier to climb than cut and mortared stone.
|
|
#
?
Dec 13, 2013 00:48
|
|
|
veekie posted:Earlier in the thread, where it was said that the mongols hired siege engineers and climbers to invade china. No, I meant, what is the source you got this information from?
|
|
#
?
Dec 13, 2013 00:51
|
|
|
Fizzil posted:A person, usually hammering in nails fastened to a rope to create some sort of ladder of sorts so the other troops can climb it as well. This here post?
|
|
#
?
Dec 13, 2013 01:01
|
|
|
Youse guys are being reeaaal difficultquote:The Chinese were big on rammed earth fortifications since they were cheap if you had corvee labor and good enough for a lot of situations. That's why a lot of the great wall in the west is a crumbling pile of dirt, it was always a pile of dirt. Much easier to climb than cut and mortared stone. Did they always face walls with stone or brick or were they sometimes built without such additions? I've heard of some cities in China and south east asia that only used earth ramparts topped with dense bamboo stands, though such fortifications are probably more about regulating the flow of regular citizens then holding off armies. Squalid fucked around with this message at 01:51 on Dec 13, 2013 |
|
#
?
Dec 13, 2013 01:48
|
|
|
I've just recently realized how widespread and popular cloth armors were. But how good were they at protecting against swords and arrows?
|
|
#
?
Dec 13, 2013 02:43
|
|
|
Squalid posted:Youse guys are being reeaaal difficult They did not, although rammed earth is like brick in some ways. That's the rammed part. You squash earth into forms and then ram it to compress it into something that's structurally useful. It's like brick without the fuel and time input. And less strong obviously. Then you build a wall out of it. I think people sometimes confuse earth fortifications with other earthen constructions or with ruined earth fortifications. Rammed earth walls can be fairly shear but it doesn't age well. That's why the earth fortifications you see are all slumped into long berms. They would not have looked like that or been very useful in their design lifetime. It doesn't help that berms are also useful, so an earthen berm and an earthen wall are hard to tell apart 1000 years later and you rarely have any contemporary account of what this thing war supposed to be. So they get conflated. Like European earth fortifications rammed earth walls were an early and unsophisticated form and while they persisted from early antiquity to the middle ages they were a cheap and dirty alternative by the Tang dynasty. The Ming era walls which are the earliest fortifications that remain in anything like good condition in China date from the 14th to 16th century and are all terribly practical and boring brick/cut stone facing over rubble cores. Exactly what you'd find anywhere else in the middle ages. Arglebargle III fucked around with this message at 05:14 on Dec 13, 2013 |
|
#
?
Dec 13, 2013 05:05
|
|
|
Hogge Wild posted:I've just recently realized how widespread and popular cloth armors were. But how good were they at protecting against swords and arrows? Someone linked a really informative video on this topic earlier in the thread but I'll be damned if I can remember who it was, and I don't much fancy trawling pages of discussion to find it.
|
|
#
?
Dec 13, 2013 13:27
|
|
|
Hogge Wild posted:I've just recently realized how widespread and popular cloth armors were. But how good were they at protecting against swords and arrows? Here is a really good hands-on test/review (that I believe is what RabidWeasel was referencing from earlier in the thread) of a variety of cloth armor thicknesses (along with some maille testing). Really fascinating how effective against cuts cloth armors were. http://www.myarmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=11131
|
|
#
?
Dec 13, 2013 18:00
|
|
|
Tons of videos and pictures of people testing weapons against chainmail, but are there any videos of silk cloth trapping arrows? Youtube gives me nothing.
|
|
#
?
Dec 14, 2013 00:13
|
|
|
Can anyone recommend me a good history of the crusades? How highly regarded is Runciman's work these days?
|
|
#
?
Dec 14, 2013 04:06
|
|
|
Arglebargle III posted:They did not, although rammed earth is like brick in some ways. That's the rammed part. You squash earth into forms and then ram it to compress it into something that's structurally useful. It's like brick without the fuel and time input. And less strong obviously. Then you build a wall out of it. woah, apparently I didn't actually know what rammed earth was. Stuff looks really cool, almost like natural shale. Sexgun Rasputin posted:Tons of videos and pictures of people testing weapons against chainmail, but are there any videos of silk cloth trapping arrows? That'd be interesting. Personally, I want to see somebody test the protection offered by this: 
|
|
#
?
Dec 14, 2013 05:05
|
|
|
DandyLion posted:Here is a really good hands-on test/review (that I believe is what RabidWeasel was referencing from earlier in the thread) of a variety of cloth armor thicknesses (along with some maille testing). Really fascinating how effective against cuts cloth armors were. Interesting test, pity that they used modern target practice arrows.
|
|
#
?
Dec 14, 2013 07:14
|
|
|
Squalid posted:That'd be interesting. Personally, I want to see somebody test the protection offered by this: Is that a durian helmet? e: no wait i see the fins. wow.
|
|
#
?
Dec 14, 2013 07:23
|
|
|
For weapons like the kanabo and scythe were they ever used in battle or is that just the stuff of fiction and legends? Also what books are good for giving some of the more unique weapons like the khanda or the urumi the spotlight?
|
|
#
?
Dec 14, 2013 07:29
|
|
|
Squalid posted:woah, apparently I didn't actually know what rammed earth was. Stuff looks really cool, almost like natural shale. Highly effective against any or all of the Three Stooges.
|
|
#
?
Dec 14, 2013 07:29
|
|
|
Cacotopic Stain posted:For weapons like the kanabo and scythe were they ever used in battle or is that just the stuff of fiction and legends? Also what books are good for giving some of the more unique weapons like the khanda or the urumi the spotlight? War scythes were used.
|
|
#
?
Dec 14, 2013 07:36
|
|
|
Hogge Wild posted:War scythes were used. Looks a bit more like a naginata than a scythe, but that makes sense too.
|
|
#
?
Dec 14, 2013 07:53
|
|
|
veekie posted:Looks a bit more like a naginata than a scythe, but that makes sense too. Unmodified scythes make pretty terrible weapons. At the very least, there's no advantage to having the blade at a right angle to the haft, and thus no reason to do it. I don't know how big a kanabo is, or whether they were actually used, but it's essentially a two-handed club, right? That one is probably more plausible.
|
|
#
?
Dec 14, 2013 09:24
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 8, 2024 08:55 |
|
|
veekie posted:Looks a bit more like a naginata than a scythe, but that makes sense too. Naginata is sharpened on the other side.
|
|
#
?
Dec 14, 2013 09:33
|
|