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kid sinister posted:Energized cable can only terminate inside boxes. You can't run a cable still able to be powered via a switch to the middle of a ceiling and bury it behind drywall. That's adorable and so idealistic. This guy was talking about the real world, not inside the covers of a code book.
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Dec 12, 2013 04:57
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The switch talk just reminds me of the ever-present condition in old buildings where you go look at a 50-year-old panel and half of the breakers have masking tape over them with "LEAVE OFF" written in sharpy, and every single one of them is in the on position. Thanks whatever staff did that, it's really helpful.
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Dec 12, 2013 16:56
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The attic of a house I was in not too long ago was a real trip. One circuit from the breaker started as romex and had sections of rigid metal conduit running to uncovered junction boxes, flex tube, and knob and tube wiring. The project was, of course, a remodel following an electrical fire in another wing of the house. e: which is really fitting for the thread title, now that I think about it. Samahiel fucked around with this message at 23:08 on Dec 12, 2013 |
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Dec 12, 2013 22:55
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Papercut posted:The switch talk just reminds me of the ever-present condition in old buildings where you go look at a 50-year-old panel and half of the breakers have masking tape over them with "LEAVE OFF" written in sharpy, and every single one of them is in the on position. Thanks whatever staff did that, it's really helpful. See, the masking tape is you problem. Duct tape is clearly called fo in this situation.
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Dec 13, 2013 00:37
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Seriously? It's an electrical panel, you should be using electrical tape.
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Dec 13, 2013 05:00
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You expect someone to sharpie on black tape? You know you should never use white electrical tape.
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Dec 13, 2013 07:12
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You can cut the letters out of red electrical tape.
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Dec 13, 2013 17:05
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Y'all need to buy some label makers.
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Dec 13, 2013 19:41
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Not sure if this is the best thread to put it in, as I am more worried about security than wiring, but here goes. I have some vaulted ceilings with beams going across in 2 places. However these beams are hollow, just 3 pieces of wood in the shape of a beam. We would like to put 2 chandeliers at the peak of the beams, but am having issues how to secure the junction box. as you can see in the pictures below the wood on either side are .75 inches, if I secure the junction box into both beams would that be secure enough to hold the chandelier. The chandelier is at most 30 lbs. there is some secured wood above the drywall on either side of the peak, also not very thick, so I may be able to secure it into that as well, but it is 6 inches from the front edge of the "beam". I have total access on one side of the beam from the attic, up to about 6 inches from the peak.  
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Dec 14, 2013 20:51
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Those are decorative. Install a proper "fan box" or similar appropriate box and brace that spans rafters.
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Dec 14, 2013 20:59
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Messadiah posted:You expect someone to sharpie on black tape? You know you should never use white electrical tape. How you gonna phase bigger feeder wire?
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Dec 14, 2013 21:21
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Motronic posted:Those are decorative. The issue with that is I don't have access to the rafters from the attic at the peak, I could do it from the bottom, but also worried how to extend the box so it reaches to the bottom of the 6 inch "beam"
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Dec 14, 2013 21:29
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MrDingleDangle posted:The issue with that is I don't have access to the rafters from the attic at the peak, I could do it from the bottom, but also worried how to extend the box so it reaches to the bottom of the 6 inch "beam" Cut drywall and patch it. It beats having the chandler fall down. And if this is any kind of "normal" chandelier ist's on threaded pipe that should be plenty long. You put an escutcheon where it meets the finished ceiling. If it's too heavy for the lid of a box use a chandelier brace (installs across rafters, accepts threaded rod, some are adjustable to make it easy to hang the fixture straight down on a sloped ceiling). You'll still need a box for the connections and you'll still need to cut drywall. Actually, if you're trying to get this to come through those decorative beams you will probably have to use a chandelier brace and hang it high. You may ot may not have the access you need to do that in a way that allows you to cut the drywall so you can patch it without removing the beam/trim stuff. Bottom line: there is not likely going to be any way to do this properly without cutting at least drywall if you don't have access from above. Motronic fucked around with this message at 22:34 on Dec 14, 2013 |
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Dec 14, 2013 22:32
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Motronic posted:Cut drywall and patch it. It beats having the chandler fall down. Sorry for not being clear, the junction boxes I have used before are only maybe 2-4 inches deep at most, wouldn't i need one to come all 6 inches down, would this be accomplished by adding an extension?
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Dec 15, 2013 01:03
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My apartment is having some weird problems tonight, I keep losing half the circuits intermittently, I am thinking that their is some utility problem that keeps single phasing the system. So I am unplugging sensitive loads and gonna keep an eye on it. When it happens there is some voltage, but it is very, very low. Like some very light loads will stay on, others drop completely, and if I try to turn on a Cfl bulb it will flash and come on very dim. EDIT confirmed this is a utility issue. Going back to bed with sensitive loads isolated. EDIT 2: ELECTRIC BOOGALOO: The utility fixed it around 4:00 AM. Other apartments were all single-phased with low voltage. Three-Phase fucked around with this message at 21:02 on Dec 15, 2013 |
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Dec 15, 2013 07:39
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MrDingleDangle posted:Sorry for not being clear, the junction boxes I have used before are only maybe 2-4 inches deep at most, wouldn't i need one to come all 6 inches down, would this be accomplished by adding an extension? I'm making the (pretty good because it's common) assumption that this chandelier mounts on a threaded rod, which is going to be quite long and probably even replaceable. That is how you make it "lower" in relation to finished ceiling height. If you want more specifics you're going to have to pony up a picture of the ceiling side of the chandelier
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Dec 15, 2013 20:29
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 If the chandelier is on a chain, you could put the box in a more accessible location, and a hook where you want it to hang from. The box won't need to be load-bearing, but the hook will.
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Dec 16, 2013 00:51
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I'm going to be replacing three butt-ugly surface-mount light fixtures with LED recessed fixtures soon. The instructions I've read seem pretty straight-forward, especially since I'm just changing these fixtures 1-for-1. Is there anything I should know before I get started? What size should I install (or how to I choose?)?
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Dec 16, 2013 19:13
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Economic Sinkhole posted:I'm going to be replacing three butt-ugly surface-mount light fixtures with LED recessed fixtures soon. The instructions I've read seem pretty straight-forward, especially since I'm just changing these fixtures 1-for-1. Is there anything I should know before I get started? What size should I install (or how to I choose?)? Are you talking about cans? Like the kind of lights you'll find on the ceiling? If so, the LED retrofit kits are quite simple if you don't care about your exiting trim rings. If you do, you are better off getting LED bulbs (the type the screw in) of the right shape/size. Also, some of the retrofit kits have a gimbal option, which are kinda cool in the right place. And, like everything else......you get what you pay for.
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Dec 16, 2013 19:26
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Thanks. I mean we're replacing these: With these: 
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Dec 16, 2013 19:41
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Economic Sinkhole posted:Thanks. I mean we're replacing these: So you're replacing a standard light fixture with a can?
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Dec 16, 2013 19:43
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So "easy" is pretty relative and you've not mentioned if you have any access from above, insulation in that area, etc, etc, etc....... Lots of factors can affect this. ninja edit: that looks like some kind of funky retrofit can. It's certainly not a standard one I've seen. additional ninja edit: I've never seen a light like what you have now be in a reasonable position to be replaced with a single can. More typically they are in the center of a room where you rarely want/need a can and you end up having to patch over the hole left from it as you install 4, 6 or 8 cans around the outside of the room. Motronic fucked around with this message at 19:49 on Dec 16, 2013 |
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Dec 16, 2013 19:47
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Motronic posted:So "easy" is pretty relative and you've not mentioned if you have any access from above, insulation in that area, etc, etc, etc....... Thanks for your input. There is one of these brass-and-glass fixtures each located at the top and bottom of some stairs, and in a closet. They are all very small spaces and I feel that they will be lit satisfactorily by a single can. Home Depot sells these retrofit recessed fixtures right next to the new work ones. Down the line I hope to also install recessed fixtures in some other rooms but those projects all involve installing fixtures where there are none now, around the room as you say.
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Dec 16, 2013 20:24
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I've used those "remodel" cans before. They are ok if you are VERY careful when you cut your hole since it clamps over the drywall. Also, anything contacting the box or bracket tends to cause the can to cant in the hole. If installed properly, no one will know the difference.
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Dec 16, 2013 22:53
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ncumbered_by_idgits posted:I've used those "remodel" cans before. They are ok if you are VERY careful when you cut your hole since it clamps over the drywall. Also, anything contacting the box or bracket tends to cause the can to cant in the hole. If installed properly, no one will know the difference. Yeah, start small with the hole and just keep cutting bit by bit. I saw someone use a hole saw one size too big and it was.....aggravating 
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Dec 16, 2013 23:13
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The problem with going surface mount -> recessed can is that the surface mount (most likely) has a junction box behind it, which is mounted to a joist or blocking between two joists. Often times they'll be attached to a ceiling pan box which is a very shallow, approximately 1/2" deep. The remodel use recessed can is counting on you to land it in a space between two joists where you'll have enough wire to pull through the hole, connect inside the fixture's junction box, and stuff back into the available space in the cavity, as well as enough room for the flag bracket that holds the junction box, sufficient clearance for the retaining clips to reach out and grab the drywall, and enough headroom above. If the surface mounted fixture has a ceiling pan box above it and you're determined to go to a recessed can, you'll need to note which direction the Romex comes into the box from and locate the recessed can in that direction in order to have enough wire to work with. You'll then have to remove the ceiling pan box, cut a patch of drywall to screw to the joist, tape, mud, blend texture, and paint. It's far from a 1-1 exchange since you likely can't remove the wood the old box is anchored to, so it'd be much easier to find a more contemporary surface mount fixture that you like and swap two screws and three wire nuts. ncumbered_by_idgits posted:I've used those "remodel" cans before. They are ok if you are VERY careful when you cut your hole since it clamps over the drywall. Also, anything contacting the box or bracket tends to cause the can to cant in the hole. If installed properly, no one will know the difference. I cheat and drill a small pilot hole where I think it might go. Poke a piece of solid #12 wire up to check headroom, bend a 90 in it just bigger than the radius of the can and spin it around to check for clearance. If you run into plumbing / duct work / etc, it's easy to patch the hole in. If you hit a joist or blocking, you will know which way to shift the pilot hole to check again. Once I'm sure of the clearance, I'll use fancy can light hole saws, but a template and a jab saw will work. I like my Elco EL5000 cutter with the acrylic shell around it to keep all of the dust out of your face, but the carbide grit hole saws are the fastest if you're doing repetitive work.
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Dec 17, 2013 07:26
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Looking to see if I'm wrong to do this. I'm going to be replacing outlets in my finished basement due to painting, but they're mostly ungrounded and I'm not ready to hire an electrician. Out of four outlets, two ungrounded ones will stay as 2-prong. For the two most used ones, which are within >6' of the water heater, I planned to put in GFCIs. One outlet is grounded and has the TV equipment but is 2' from the heater. The other outlet is farther but ungrounded and the attached devices are touched often. I planned to wire both sides of each circuit to Line on each GFCI, since I'm not sure of the order of outlets on the circuit. Does this sound right? Long term, I want to have a new circuit run through the basement. It still seems like a good idea to have GFCIs around the heater though. I have an ungrounded outlet in the bedroom (only one on the main floor) that I'm considering replacing the same way, GFCI but line only.
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Dec 17, 2013 19:35
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WeaselWeaz posted:Looking to see if I'm wrong to do this. I'm going to be replacing outlets in my finished basement due to painting, but they're mostly ungrounded and I'm not ready to hire an electrician. Out of four outlets, two ungrounded ones will stay as 2-prong. For the two most used ones, which are within >6' of the water heater, I planned to put in GFCIs. One outlet is grounded and has the TV equipment but is 2' from the heater. The other outlet is farther but ungrounded and the attached devices are touched often. I planned to wire both sides of each circuit to Line on each GFCI, since I'm not sure of the order of outlets on the circuit. Does this sound right? Yes, you can just use the 'line' terminals as you planned to GFCI protect a single outlet and not affect the rest of the room. If you're going through the effort of putting in two GFCIs though, it's probably worth the half hour it'll take to find out how the basement is wired and possibly get them all protected, and only require the one to protect all four (and save you $20 on the 2nd GFCI). As an added bonus you could then replace the 2-prongs with 3-prongs, attach the GFCI and No Equipment Ground stickers and be done with the room (unless the new circuit is for some larger load or something that requires equipment ground).
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Dec 17, 2013 19:52
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Entangled posted:The problem with going surface mount -> recessed can is that the surface mount (most likely) has a junction box behind it, which is mounted to a joist or blocking between two joists. Often times they'll be attached to a ceiling pan box which is a very shallow, approximately 1/2" deep. The remodel use recessed can is counting on you to land it in a space between two joists where you'll have enough wire to pull through the hole, connect inside the fixture's junction box, and stuff back into the available space in the cavity, as well as enough room for the flag bracket that holds the junction box, sufficient clearance for the retaining clips to reach out and grab the drywall, and enough headroom above. If the surface mounted fixture has a ceiling pan box above it and you're determined to go to a recessed can, you'll need to note which direction the Romex comes into the box from and locate the recessed can in that direction in order to have enough wire to work with. You'll then have to remove the ceiling pan box, cut a patch of drywall to screw to the joist, tape, mud, blend texture, and paint. This is great advice, thanks for posting it. I will pull off the existing fixtures before I do anything else to check out what is up there.
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Dec 17, 2013 20:09
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Qwijib0 posted:Yes, you can just use the 'line' terminals as you planned to GFCI protect a single outlet and not affect the rest of the room. Edit: Nope, this is probably the way to go if I can find where the circuit starts. My worry is ungrounded but GFCI protected plugs. Isn't there a concern that people ignore the No Equipment Ground sticker? WeaselWeaz fucked around with this message at 20:56 on Dec 17, 2013 |
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Dec 17, 2013 20:50
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WeaselWeaz posted:Edit: Nope, this is probably the way to go if I can find where the circuit starts. My worry is ungrounded but GFCI protected plugs. Isn't there a concern that people ignore the No Equipment Ground sticker? There's no safety concern if people do-- the GFCI provides the necessary protection (removal of current) that a proper path to ground usually provides to equipment designed with that as its safety mechanism. The only problem that could occur if someone ignored it would be undesirable operation, like a hum in audio equipment that needed ground as a reference.
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Dec 17, 2013 22:48
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I bought my first home a few weeks ago, and I'm having trouble with the outside front GFCI outlet. (Trying to get some drat Christmas lights working.) Our inspector initially picked up that the existing outlet didn't work, so we had the vendor fix it before closing, along with a few other minor electrical issues. When we did our closing day walkthrough we saw that it had been replaced with a new GFCI so we assumed it would work. Nope. The outlet is switched on/off from inside the porch, and a red indicator light above that switch works. I'm getting a reading from the outlet on my non-contact voltage tester, and also from the length of LED lights I'm plugging into the thing. The reading stops when I switch off the outlet. But the lights aren't lighting up (I've tried a few sets, all of which work inside). So maybe I'm getting voltage to the outlet but minimal current? Is there anything I can do to fix/diagnose this besides calling in a proper electrician to fix whatever was done by the vendor's guy? And, maybe related, the doorbell to the house had been disconnected, and when I went to install a new one last weekend I was getting a constant humming sound. Not that I think the front outlet is wired to the 5V doorbell line, but maybe when the siding was replaced two years ago it introduced a short in some of the wiring at the front of the house? Thaaaanks.
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Dec 17, 2013 22:56
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Economic Sinkhole posted:This is great advice, thanks for posting it. I will pull off the existing fixtures before I do anything else to check out what is up there. I recently installed a bunch of LED can lights. Depending on which way your existing 3-way stairway lights are wired, it can be a real challenge to get the wires into the junction box that's attached to the can. Hopefully you've got 14ga wiring. Also, those clips on the cans that provide tension against the drywall can be a struggle to push into place; I had to bend them outward (slightly) in order to secure them.
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Dec 18, 2013 00:59
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Kaf posted:I bought my first home a few weeks ago, and I'm having trouble with the outside front GFCI outlet. (Trying to get some drat Christmas lights working.) Our inspector initially picked up that the existing outlet didn't work, so we had the vendor fix it before closing, along with a few other minor electrical issues. When we did our closing day walkthrough we saw that it had been replaced with a new GFCI so we assumed it would work. Nope. Start by getting a real volt meter (instead of just a detector), and measure the voltage out of that outlet.
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Dec 18, 2013 01:04
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Guy Axlerod posted:Start by getting a real volt meter (instead of just a detector), and measure the voltage out of that outlet. This is good advice, but is the GFCI simply tripped? That would explain the non contact reading voltage. I don't want to assume this person doesn't even know how to hit a test and reset switch........but it's a possibility.
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Dec 18, 2013 01:17
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poo poo. My FIL just called. He turned on the bathroom lighswitch in his newly purchased house this afternoon and the fart fan let the magic smoke out and the vanity fixture blew the bulbs out of the sockets. They are seventy miles form any services in the missouri woods and he's stubborn as hell to boot. Sounds like a loose neutral or utility problem to me. I tried to explain the danger but I don't think he got it. Hopefully he sucks it up and calls an electrician.
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Dec 18, 2013 01:20
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Motronic posted:This is good advice, but is the GFCI simply tripped? That would explain the non contact reading voltage. Yeah, I've tried the test and reset buttons to no success. Neither seem to do anything. The new GFCI on the back of the house seems to work great, but this front one... But ok, I'll at least do a price check on a proper voltmeter when I'm at the hardware store tomorrow and see what I can gather. Thanks.
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Dec 18, 2013 02:37
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the first thing i would do, before buying a more expensive tester (though it would be useful to have), is make sure whoever installed the GFI receptacle hooked it up right. if neither of the buttons on the GFI are doing anything, that would be the first thing i would check. have you pulled the plug out at all to see what inside of the box looks like? a neutral also might have come loose on the plug or under a wirenut which would still give you a hot reading but cause the lights to not work.
crocodile fucked around with this message at 02:53 on Dec 18, 2013 |
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Dec 18, 2013 02:50
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Qwijib0 posted:There's no safety concern if people do-- the GFCI provides the necessary protection (removal of current) that a proper path to ground usually provides to equipment designed with that as its safety mechanism. The only problem that could occur if someone ignored it would be undesirable operation, like a hum in audio equipment that needed ground as a reference. Don't forget nuisance trips. WW, some things when plugged in can behave like a ground fault and cause the GFCI to trip. It's mostly things with larger motors that do that, like vacuums, refrigerators, power tools, etc. Newer devices have been designed to help prevent that from happening, but I still wouldn't plug an older refrigerator full of food into a GFCI. Kaf posted:Yeah, I've tried the test and reset buttons to no success. Neither seem to do anything. That's because GFCIs won't reset when they aren't receiving power. Make sure the switch is on and try resetting it after that. If you walk into a hardware store and ask for a "voltmeter", they probably won't know what you're talking about. You probably want to ask for a "multimeter" instead, which has a voltmeter built in along with other functions. You can get a cheap analog one for $10 or a digital one for under $20. Basically, turn the big dial on the front of the thing to "Volts AC", then touch either probe to wires, screw terminals, or even stick them in outlet prong slots. If you can get it reset, stick the probes in the two slots, either color, it doesn't matter for AC. It should read around 120V AC. kid sinister fucked around with this message at 03:02 on Dec 18, 2013 |
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Dec 18, 2013 02:58
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Kaf posted:I'm getting a reading from the outlet on my non-contact voltage tester, and also from the length of LED lights I'm plugging into the thing. The reading stops when I switch off the outlet. This really makes it sound like you have a neutral disconnected somewhere. Electricity is getting to the outlet (and the lights plugged into it) but can't complete the circuit all the way back.
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Dec 18, 2013 02:59
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