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Barudak posted:And we can all now objectively agree that the total mess of a game that is FFII is getting the thorough drubbing that shitheap deserves. Ya know, part of it might be the simple fact I give the game a lot more slack due to it being older, but in my personal ranking, II is still better than VIII or XIII. The game is not without its positive features IMO. I think the combat is more interesting than Junctioning and the story makes more sense. Plus it has one of the most underrated soundtracks in the series history, featuring the best Normal Battle theme, two amazing, dungeon themes and the unforgettable Rebel Army Theme. Plus this game had the balls to kill off pretty much everybody. People mourn Aeris but what about josef huh? What about his daughter left all alone?
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Dec 12, 2013 05:20
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I think the difference between Aeris and Josef (to use your own example) is that one of them had a personality.
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Dec 12, 2013 05:58
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FF9 had an in-game easter egg in tribute to Josef's sacrifice. It had no such tribute to Aeris' murder. 
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Dec 12, 2013 07:04
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You really can't compare the two. FF2 is just so much older, and was made in an entirely different time. I think people nowadays really don't understand how much CDs and such really changed games. FF2... I like it, yes, but even I have to admit it isn't perfect. That being said, compared to games of the time, it really isn't bad all.
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Dec 12, 2013 07:36
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For the record, I don't think those 5 characters are ALL of FFXVs playable cast, just the ones they can reveal without going full on plot spoilers. I mean that would essentially mean getting your entire party off the bat at the start of the game, which... okay it's Nomura and he made Kingdom Hearts, but even he wanted the PC to actually recruit the characters from the disney worlds, not just have them guest star. I remember for the longest time people thought the initial group we had seen were it, and we had to be specifically told "No, we just haven't shown the rest." Now could I be wrong? Absolutely. ANYWAY. Putting that to bed. FF2? I like it? I think? I certainly played it enough. I think it was ballsy to handle "We need new party members" by "Let's loving MURDER the other ones." It was probably FFs most blatant "Fantasy Star Wars" story ever. But this was Square when it experimented. When it wanted to explore what would work and what didn't. And the gameplay didn't work in many senses. At the same time, at least they tried something new, which would become a standard for FF in the future. Which gave us things like the Job system and ATB. And it's nowhere near as bad as FF8 or XIII. Even if the game will murder you for going south instead of north. Feels like an RPG I would make back as a child with RPGmaker 2000
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Dec 12, 2013 16:25
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Onmi posted:ANYWAY. Putting that to bed. FF2? I like it? I think? I certainly played it enough. I think it was ballsy to handle "We need new party members" by "Let's loving MURDER the other ones." It was probably FFs most blatant "Fantasy Star Wars" story ever. Let's not forget that II also gave us the SaGa series, the gameplay of which is very clearly descended from its best elements. The first game in the series is... strange, but even now it's still pretty fun once you figure it out (and if you can get around the Gameboy graphics). It's the only game I've ever played that allows you to cut God in half with a chainsaw.
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Dec 12, 2013 17:57
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Mazed posted:FF9 had an in-game easter egg in tribute to Josef's sacrifice. It had no such tribute to Aeris' murder. Speaking of IX, I'm sad everyone forgets about Dagger when talking about good female characters... You could say she's the protagonist of that game too, except for the part in Terra were Zidane takes over.
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Dec 12, 2013 20:55
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CeallaSo posted:It's the only game I've ever played that allows you to cut God in half with a chainsaw. FF6, technically.
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Dec 12, 2013 21:05
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Fister Roboto posted:FF6, technically. Nah, that always misses in FF6 
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Dec 12, 2013 21:09
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The Chainsaw is a weapon in Shin Megami Tensei 2. 
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Dec 12, 2013 21:32
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CeallaSo posted:Let's not forget that II also gave us the SaGa series, the gameplay of which is very clearly descended from its best elements. The first game in the series is... strange, but even now it's still pretty fun once you figure it out (and if you can get around the Gameboy graphics). It's the only game I've ever played that allows you to cut God in half with a chainsaw. And the SaGa games gave up The Last Remnant, which I love to death. Seriously, if you haven't go buy TLR.
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Dec 13, 2013 01:43
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Buy it for PC though.
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Dec 13, 2013 01:47
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Probably don't buy TLR. Talk about a game that has extremely interesting ideas and then squanders them completely.
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Dec 13, 2013 04:31
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Anonymous Robot posted:Probably don't buy TLR. Talk about a game that has extremely interesting ideas and then squanders them completely. It is a shame with Last Remnant that it went the way it did; I've never seen another game that used that style of combat. Some have come close, but nothing else is quite like it. I've always felt that everyone would have been better off if TLR and Lost Odyssey had just been one game, as the former had better gameplay and the latter had the better plot and setting. You could even excuse the difference between Leader units and regular grunts as leaders being immortals. Anything would have served better than the boring combat of Lost Odyssey, seriously. And I know they were released more than a year apart by separate companies. It doesn't change the fact that I would love to play that game.
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Dec 13, 2013 05:24
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TLR flirts with the idea of having a rich battle system involving shifting unit positions, flanking, attacks of opportunity, mixed unit compositions, programmable AI logic circuits, units with specialized battle roles, leadership traits, common soldiers that gain their own unique stories through dynamic evolution, party members giving quests based on their needs/desires, managing an army's armory instead of an abstract inventory, large-scale operational tactics, and more. Then, it proceeds to either not make use of or deliberately undercut pretty much all of those elements.
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Dec 13, 2013 05:29
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1st AD posted:Buy it for PC though. And get it on sale because it's still not worth full price and is an overall terrible game that they used as a prototype for FF13's combat. Their Quasi AI was terrible and anyone who likes a game where you can have an entire unit of healers not have the option to try and heal one of several heavily injured groups because the tactics RNG didn't feel like it, it is a bad game.
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Dec 13, 2013 06:11
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Anonymous Robot posted:TLR flirts with the idea of having a rich battle system involving shifting unit positions, flanking, attacks of opportunity, mixed unit compositions, programmable AI logic circuits, units with specialized battle roles, leadership traits, common soldiers that gain their own unique stories through dynamic evolution, party members giving quests based on their needs/desires, managing an army's armory instead of an abstract inventory, large-scale operational tactics, and more. You forgot its inheritance of the SaGa legacy by explaining almost literally none of it.
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Dec 13, 2013 08:37
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Evil Fluffy posted:And get it on sale because it's still not worth full price and is an overall terrible game that they used as a prototype for FF13's combat. Their Quasi AI was terrible and anyone who likes a game where you can have an entire unit of healers not have the option to try and heal one of several heavily injured groups because the tactics RNG didn't feel like it, it is a bad game. Oh yeah, the tactics RNG was a real fucker and cost me a shitload of fights. Eventually I got fed up and just cheated my way to the ending.
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Dec 13, 2013 09:30
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Evil Fluffy posted:Their Quasi AI was terrible and anyone who likes a game where you can have an entire unit of healers not have the option to try and heal one of several heavily injured groups because the tactics RNG didn't feel like it, it is a bad game. This is exactly what killed TLR for me. I loved the idea of the battle system, building an army and so on. The skill learning system was a little opaque but not too bad and the idea of putting as many monsters as you could round up into a battle made leveling up/going through areas a lot of fun - you could make genuinely tough battles out of random encounters if you wanted to. Also Im pretty sure its the only square enix RPG with physics which is a big deal for me, it was cool to finish the last enemy with the wind blast spell and watch him fly across the battlefield. It's the lack of control over your units that ruined that game for me. Like you said its total bullshit that you could have heavily injured units and if you got unlucky you wouldnt even get the option to heal them. If there was a mod or something for the PC version that gave you full control over the units I would start it again.
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Dec 13, 2013 09:57
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Brasseye posted:The skill learning system was a little opaque but not too bad and the idea of putting as many monsters as you could round up into a battle made leveling up/going through areas a lot of fun - you could make genuinely tough battles out of random encounters if you wanted to. It's worth mentioning that rather than rewarding the player for pulling this off well and stringing together multiple enemies, the game instead punishes you for NOT doing this in the long run by giving you horrible stat growths from single battles, as well as featuring an "enemy scaling to your level" system that's handled even worse than 4 Heroes of Light. TLR is a game that I want so badly to like, but it's bungled on many, many levels.
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Dec 13, 2013 10:35
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TLR is a game that when you know all the little things that make it work. How to trigger what AI commands, how to level and chain etc. Is a really good game. And when you don't know any of these things, it's a really bad game. I second the desire for a mod that lets me simply choose what everyone in a union can do, which subtracts from the AP bar of that union and leaving me able to do everything. Also an in game explanation for... oh... the Class system the weapon levels the stats and everything else would be helpful. Course I love the game more than I hate it. But nothing is as annoying as starting on Hard Mode and wiping to a boss when you have Rush, and then AI unions. There isn't anything I could do about that game. Why did you gently caress me? But yes. Could have been much better. Was still good personally. Let me change everyones equipment without modding the game and let me select everyone's actions. And I would even settle on that as Golden.
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Dec 13, 2013 10:40
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I remember that game. My brother got it for Christmas, and I got Infinite Undiscovery. I think I got the better deal. Edit: No, autocorrect, not In discovery.
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Dec 13, 2013 16:31
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For those that don't know; the latest Ukiyoe Heroes woodblock prints are from Final Fantasy 6; and they look incredible. I'm seriously considering buying it. Link is here.
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Dec 13, 2013 16:39
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Nihilarian posted:I remember that game. My brother got it for Christmas, and I got Infinite Undiscovery. No, you really didn't.
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Dec 13, 2013 17:47
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Coughing Hobo posted:No, you really didn't. I'll second this. TLR is a flawed game with a good heart, Infinite Undiscovery is tedious, drab and awful to its core.
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Dec 13, 2013 19:08
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Nihilarian posted:I remember that game. My brother got it for Christmas, and I got Infinite Undiscovery. You both lost, actually.
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Dec 13, 2013 19:55
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Square's 7th Generation Era might very well go down as their worst. Even before FFXIII they gave us: The Last Remnant Infinite Undiscovery Star Ocean: The Last Hope I thought the last one was fun at least. Awesome music too. Being fun to play is more than I can say about IU and FFXIII.
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Dec 13, 2013 21:22
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NikkolasKing posted:Square's 7th Generation Era might very well go down as their worst. Even before FFXIII they gave us:
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Dec 13, 2013 21:27
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Yeah it was pretty bad, objectively. I still enjoyed it though.
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Dec 13, 2013 21:34
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1)The Last Remnant owns 2) I have no doubt there's a way to set things up to get exactly what you want, but as TLR is a SaGa game in all but name, it's never going to tell you.
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Dec 13, 2013 21:38
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If you count only games developed in-house, TLR, FFXIII series, and Crystal Chronicles series for Wii are the only major SE titles released in the 7th generation for home consoles (not portables). So yeah pretty bleak.
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Dec 13, 2013 22:13
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Dross posted:If you count only games developed in-house, TLR, FFXIII series, and Crystal Chronicles series for Wii are the only major SE titles released in the 7th generation for home consoles (not portables). Now you reminded me of Crystal Chronicles: The Crystal Bearer  It's also known as:
They failed to deliver on every single loving front. CC had cool and novel gameplay! CC had a pretty good, if minimalist story and amazing worldbuilding! And now there will never be sequels.
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Dec 13, 2013 22:49
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Dr Pepper posted:1)The Last Remnant owns Yeah, the bullshit is all part of the SaGa "experience". Kinda like trying to fight the Time Lord in SaGa Frontier. Overdrive. 
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Dec 14, 2013 07:40
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Brasseye posted:This is exactly what killed TLR for me. I loved the idea of the battle system, building an army and so on. The skill learning system was a little opaque but not too bad and the idea of putting as many monsters as you could round up into a battle made leveling up/going through areas a lot of fun - you could make genuinely tough battles out of random encounters if you wanted to. Also Im pretty sure its the only square enix RPG with physics which is a big deal for me, it was cool to finish the last enemy with the wind blast spell and watch him fly across the battlefield. It could almost be made up for by having the mystic arcs abilities able to be used in other formations once you learn/use it for the first time. Except getting a setup for those to trigger was also hellish and eventually I just gave up on it as well because grinding for hours to try and get one of these WMD abilities to go off once, even with the help of a FAQ, was just as bad. The premise of the game and its mechanics was cool, the execution was terrible and lead the charge on the current generation of Square Enix mediocrity. fount of knowledge posted:It's worth mentioning that rather than rewarding the player for pulling this off well and stringing together multiple enemies, the game instead punishes you for NOT doing this in the long run by giving you horrible stat growths from single battles, as well as featuring an "enemy scaling to your level" system that's handled even worse than 4 Heroes of Light. Exploring the one cave area where a single section had really hard enemies (werewolves or something?) was terrible for this. Spent hours in thre, gained a ton of ranks, and as a result loving bugs would destroy half my party in random fights because their skills went up 4-5 levels and did tons of damage all of a sudden. Yet all of this pales in comparison to Curse. gently caress curse. gently caress the designer that came up with that skill. gently caress the producer(s) that thought "there's nothing wrong with this ability" and let it go in the game. Nihilarian posted:I remember that game. My brother got it for Christmas, and I got Infinite Undiscovery. Whatever you did to deserve that I hope you and your brother apologized for it. I own both games. I bought ID by mistake when I meant to buy Lost Odyssey, and was confused as to why people thought the game had such a good story. Also a confusing lack of immortals. NikkolasKing posted:Square's 7th Generation Era might very well go down as their worst. Even before FFXIII they gave us: Star Ocean was like some bastardized Tales game. The combat system really wanted to be a Tales game but without good components like multiplayer and teamwork. I could tolerate the game up until the phantom things. A fight that's several waves, against enemies that you need to slide around to actually hurt (maybe), and that can stunlock a character regularly, and indefinitely if multiple attack you? When I sent it back to gamefly I put a note in with it suggesting they sell the game while it's still new and people don't know how bad it is.
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Dec 14, 2013 18:11
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NikkolasKing posted:Square's 7th Generation Era might very well go down as their worst. Even before FFXIII they gave us: Depending on what you count as a 7th generation console, they made a lot quality games on handhelds. If they cut down teams sizes and worked on giving new blood new opportunities, you would probably see a lot of great games. As for their big budget games, it was a matter of time before their development methodology caught up with them. I once spoke with a person who worked at the render farm for The Spirits Within. Ironically, he actually ended up being contracted to work on Lost Odyssey. However, he had a lot of stories about how them movie as made. How Squaresoft managed their projects was that they would play it by the ear and change things late into production. This allowed them to fine tune the finished product but it didn't scale well with huge teams. This extended to how TSW was produced. A lot of stuff was re-rendered or cut because the finished render wasn't what they envisioned it would be like. There was a lot of planning on big setpiece moments but insufficient storyboarding for everything in between. Entire demo reels worth of content end up on the editing floor. You can find a lot of cut content in portfolios of artists who worked on the movie, such a different render for the Zeus cannon and a different opening. You can also read more about TSW's development here. Note that the number of omitted shots (1427) exceeds the number of shots that made it into the movie (1336). I guess we could see TSW as the canary in the coal mine when it came to big budget projects. Practically all of their big budget games have been poorly planned with several signs that significant content had been cut. I have to wonder how much has ended up on the cutting room floor for FFvsXIII/FFXV. MonsieurChoc posted:Yeah, the bullshit is all part of the SaGa "experience". Kinda like trying to fight the Time Lord in SaGa Frontier. Overdrive. You can tell it came by the people who made the Saga games from how it handles level scaling.
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Dec 14, 2013 18:32
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Evil Fluffy posted:Star Ocean was like some bastardized Tales game. That's because it is. Star Ocean was originally made by people who worked on the Tales series, and it really really shows.
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Dec 14, 2013 18:37
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Adding to the similarities, both series are also composed by Motoi Sakuraba. Although, oddly, it seems Tales tends to be his least favored work. Maybe just because there are so drat many of them but as far as I can tell, his most popular OSTs seem to be Star Ocean and Baten Kaitos.
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Dec 15, 2013 03:13
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NikkolasKing posted:Adding to the similarities, both series are also composed by Motoi Sakuraba. Although, oddly, it seems Tales tends to be his least favored work. Maybe just because there are so drat many of them but as far as I can tell, his most popular OSTs seem to be Star Ocean and Baten Kaitos. Haha, not even close. Even if you're just looking at Tri-Ace games, Sakuraba's Valkyrie Profile stuff outsells anything he does for Star Ocean. Tales gets a lot of praise, it is just that it is such a large franchise and has so many games that it doesn't tend to get the same 'this is the best soundtrack' elements, but ask in a Tales thread and you'll get a lot of favorites. (My own favorite is the VP soundtrack as well, I admit.) ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 03:21 on Dec 15, 2013 |
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Dec 15, 2013 03:17
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I will forever stand by the Golden Sun soundtrack, even if the game was boring as hell.
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Dec 15, 2013 07:54
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Sakuraba is painfully dull outside of Valkyrie Profile. Surprisingly though, he's also responsible for the music in Dark Souls, which is really good.
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Dec 15, 2013 07:56
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