|
Sorry, i'm not much of a WoD expert so all this talk about different lines with the associated jargon a very confusing to me. What does 'paradox' mean in the context of mages? What is a changeling or a True Fae? I never really played these pnp rpgs but it sure seems like I missed out on a lot.
|
#
?
Dec 15, 2013 09:13
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 20, 2024 17:57 |
|
|
mortons stork posted:What does 'paradox' mean in the context of mages? The for-dummies explanation that I've been told is that reality works on consensus, so if you're a Mage and do obvious magic in front of people that don't believe in magic, their first reaction is calling bullshit, and then reality takes notice and agrees it is bullshit and smacks you upside the head for your bullshit. I know even less about the Changelings and the Fae but I think if you've seen or read Midsummer Night's Dream you're halfway there.
|
|
#
?
Dec 15, 2013 09:49
|
|
|
Tehan posted:The for-dummies explanation that I've been told is that reality works on consensus, so if you're a Mage and do obvious magic in front of people that don't believe in magic, their first reaction is calling bullshit, and then reality takes notice and agrees it is bullshit and smacks you upside the head for your bullshit. As for True Fae, think of them as homicidal non-euclidean aliens.
|
|
#
?
Dec 15, 2013 10:05
|
|
|
mortons stork posted:Sorry, i'm not much of a WoD expert so all this talk about different lines with the associated jargon a very confusing to me. What does 'paradox' mean in the context of mages? In both editions of Mage, Paradox is the reality noticing that someone tampered with it, then smashing the uppity mage with something nasty. Vulgar displays of magic, meaning the ones that can't be explained as natural coincidences, invoke Paradox much more hard than coincidental ones. Using them while Sleepers (non-mages) are watching is even riskier. The little details differ in both versions. For old Mage, this was explained as natural consequence of consensual reality. The mage believes he can throw fireballs, but several billions of Sleepers says that's bullshit. When an ordinary guy watches, he unconsciously alerts the reality which finally gets that someone tampers with its source code right now. In nMage, cosmology was totally different. Mages live in the Fallen World, magic comes from the Supernal one. Both are divided by a layer of nothingness, or rather anti-being, called the Abyss. When a spell goes bad, a part of the Abyss intrudes into the Fallen World. All Sleepers carry an abyssal taint in their souls, so casting vulgar spells in front of them makes the intrusion easier. There is no consensual reality in nMage. The rules what constitute vulgar or coincidental were codified by the Exarchs - divine beings that were once human, but managed to ascend to Supernal World just before the Abyss appeared. If there was a god of gently caress You, Got Mine philosophy, all of them would definitely qualify. Their main goal is to prevent people from Awakening, so no one could dethrone them. Their servants, Seers of the Throne, are the replacement for Technocracy in nWoD.
|
|
#
?
Dec 15, 2013 11:45
|
|
|
Gantolandon posted:Their servants, Seers of the Throne, are the replacement for Technocracy in nWoD. Complete with their own Hunter dupes. Division Six is a Hunter Compact that hunts "reality deviants" and thinks they're the men in black protecting the mundane world from the supernatural. The splat makes it clear, though, that they're just a punchline - they get really confused when Valkyrie shows up with actual government authorization and much better hardware.
|
|
#
?
Dec 15, 2013 14:20
|
|
|
OAquinas posted:Pretty much that. Mages inflict their will upon reality to do magic. Paradox is reality hitting back, and reality is much bigger than you. It's the mage reason they don't show off in the streets (like the Werewolf Veil, the Vampire Masquerade, etc)--only instead of causing them potential political issues, it can immediately and directly cause you problems--anything from random annoying effects to outright killing you, depending on how "vulgar" your display was and how many witnesses you have. Czar Vargo is a good example - he was an Etherite that was horrified with the progress of weapons and what not in the lead up to WW1. So he thought for a bit to decide how on earth to deal with this problem. His solution involved hundreds of armored zepplins that held the various capitals of the world hostage while he shouted at them through a loud speaker to "KNOCK THAT poo poo OFF RIGHT NOW". The Union showed up and tried to stop him and his followers, but he fought them off - the only reason he actually retreated was because he didn't want to actually kill any one. Reality responded by literally writing him out of history - there's no real records of what he did, save for Jules Vernes' novel - and booting him in to the deep Umbra. Similar things happened with Doc Eon during WWII - people -vaguely- recall there being some kickass jetpack-wearing guy that showed up and saved them from Nazis and what not, but people write it off as dementia or the like.
|
|
#
?
Dec 15, 2013 20:02
|
|
|
OAquinas posted:As for True Fae, think of them as homicidal non-euclidean aliens. Yeah, True Fae are horrible formless monsters from another world that sometimes kidnap people from this one in order to create special purpose tools or servants. Where they come from the sorts of things we take for granted, like causality and logic, are completely meaningless. Generally they send purpose-built minions designed to exist in reality here, but if some portion of a True Fae were to intrude here it would be Very Bad. Most likely its presence would twist the physical laws in the area around it and just in general make life very exciting for anyone nearby, and even more worrying the sorts of exciting consequences it generates are also the sort of thing it draws energy from. Again though, most likely a True Fae can't really exist in its totality in reality because reality just can't withstand that.
|
|
#
?
Dec 15, 2013 21:35
|
|
|
Out of curiosity, do we know what role Lucifer has in NWoD Demon yet? I'm guessing judging by the New Demon conception of Hell he's the rumored, maybe-real-maybe-not "one that got away".
|
|
#
?
Dec 15, 2013 22:47
|
|
|
Alright, if the True Fae are warping reality, how come they don't get hit with a paradox?
|
|
#
?
Dec 16, 2013 01:38
|
|
|
Siegkrow posted:Alright, if the True Fae are warping reality, how come they don't get hit with a paradox? Because Hunter is the only game line built with the assumption that you'll be seeing anything outside its own line.
|
|
#
?
Dec 16, 2013 01:39
|
|
|
Cythereal posted:Because Hunter is the only game line built with the assumption that you'll be seeing anything outside its own line. Okay that's...An answer. A good answer, if not what I expected. Anybody have a theory?
|
|
#
?
Dec 16, 2013 01:43
|
|
|
Siegkrow posted:Alright, if the True Fae are warping reality, how come they don't get hit with a paradox? Partially different cosmologies, partially... it's, like, the difference between an insane cultist chanting a spell and motherfucking Cthulhu rising from the depths.
|
|
#
?
Dec 16, 2013 01:49
|
|
|
Siegkrow posted:Okay that's...An answer. A good answer, if not what I expected. Those five rear end in a top hat mages who created paradox have control over all of reality. True Fae are not a part of reality, and therefore the mages cannot counter them directly.
|
|
#
?
Dec 16, 2013 01:53
|
|
|
It's very possible that the True Fae aren't so much warping our reality as surrounding themselves with a bubble of reality with physical laws more amenable to their presence. They are Things That Should Not Be, after all.
|
|
#
?
Dec 16, 2013 02:00
|
|
|
So, for the people who are feeling lost right now... (Side note, I think we should be pretty explicit whether we're talking about oWoD or nWoD, since I have a feeling that this poo poo is confusing to unfamiliar people trying to relate what we're talking about to things in Bloodlines. For example, True Fae are not a Thing in oWoD.) I'm curious about the experience of people who had no familiarity with WoD when they first played Vampire: the Masquerade - Bloodlines. Did you feel like the game gave you a pretty good introduction to the setting, or were you overwhelmed with "  are all these different clans/factions/terms" at any point?
|
|
#
?
Dec 16, 2013 02:14
|
|
Stroop There It Is posted:So, for the people who are feeling lost right now... (Side note, I think we should be pretty explicit whether we're talking about oWoD or nWoD, since I have a feeling that this poo poo is confusing to unfamiliar people trying to relate what we're talking about to things in Bloodlines. For example, True Fae are not a Thing in oWoD.) It introduced me fairly well, I think, but there's a whole ton of extra stuff that is never mentioned. The basics come across pretty good.
|
|
|
#
?
Dec 16, 2013 02:17
|
|
|
Nobody really talks about Changeling in the context of OWoD. OWoD Changeling is a pretty crap line.
|
|
#
?
Dec 16, 2013 02:17
|
|
|
Captain Oblivious posted:Nobody really talks about Changeling in the context of OWoD. OWoD Changeling is a pretty crap line.
|
|
#
?
Dec 16, 2013 02:19
|
|
|
Stroop There It Is posted:I'm curious about the experience of people who had no familiarity with WoD when they first played Vampire: the Masquerade - Bloodlines. Did you feel like the game gave you a pretty good introduction to the setting, or were you overwhelmed with " The thread discussion is far more than Bloodlines ever was. I don't think you have to worry about that  VTMB does a good job setting you up with everything you need to know, I think.
|
|
#
?
Dec 16, 2013 02:25
|
|
|
Stroop There It Is posted:I'm curious about the experience of people who had no familiarity with WoD when they first played Vampire: the Masquerade - Bloodlines. Did you feel like the game gave you a pretty good introduction to the setting, or were you overwhelmed with " Bloodlines got me in to WOD in the first place. Now, standing back and reflecting nearly 9 years after going down the rabbit hole so to speak, it's pretty striking just how nicely-self contained VTM:B is in light of its sprawling source material. Theres nothing in you _really_ need a lore background to appreciate the significance of, with the possible exception of our bro Smiling Jack and Beckett. Everything and everyone else is either explained satisfactorily in-game, created specificially for the game.
|
|
#
?
Dec 16, 2013 02:33
|
|
|
Stroop There It Is posted:I'm curious about the experience of people who had no familiarity with WoD when they first played Vampire: the Masquerade - Bloodlines. Did you feel like the game gave you a pretty good introduction to the setting, or were you overwhelmed with " I had never played or read anything of WoD before I played Bloodlines, and I did the quiz to have it select my clan for me and got Malkavian, and I still had no trouble following it. I gave up when I got to the sewer bit, but just because I was completely unprepared for combat, the plot was clear enough.
|
|
#
?
Dec 16, 2013 03:59
|
|
|
There is no shame in giving up in the sewer level.
|
|
#
?
Dec 16, 2013 04:10
|
|
|
oWoD Changeling and nWoD Changeling are very different in tone and setting. In Old Changeling: the Dreaming, a changeling had a human side and a fae side, and the fae side thrives on creativity and dreams. Banality (with a capital B) is their bane, and when the banality of life wears a fae down, they forget their fae side and are just mortals. They don't remember being fae, they can't see the fae anymore, and pretty much it's like forgetting all your imaginary friends, who haven't forgotten you. Fae society had many different types of commoners, and the Sidhe ruled. This worked through the dawn of humanity up until the inquisition or renaissance - when men stopped dreaming/got all scientific/the Order of Reason started winning the war of reality over in Mage. At that point the Sidhe said "well, been nice, so long" and went back to Arcadia. The commoner fae either didn't or couldn't, and learned how to cope in these hard times, like the industrial revolution. Then the moon landing happened, and men started to dream again, the old pathways to the Dreaming opened up, and the Sidhe came back and announced they'd be ruling again. This did not go down well. There was a war, and the Sidhe won decisively. Fast-forward to modern times, and the uneasy balances of power. The clash of modern American life where people are mostly equal vs. the ancient feudal laws, etc, class struggle, and so forth. Main themes: need for creativity vs. demands of banal everyday life, class warfare, and politics of fae society. Madness, particularly Schizophrenia in that changelings see the fae Dreaming overlaid on top of mundane reality, but this didn't having any of the horror of real schizophrenia. In fact, it was hard to call old Changeling a horror game at all. New Changeling is a totally different beast. It fits very well in the World of Darkness, and the theme is being a survivor of some horrific traumatic event. It also sticks much closer to the folklore of what a changeling is - a pretender fae who was left when the fae stole a baby. In New Changeling, You get kidnapped by a True Fae (plenty of mentions of them up-thread) and taken into Arcadia, forced to serve the whims of the True Fae. In your place is left a Fetch, an exact copy of you. No one realizes you've been kidnapped. The True Fae warp you however they please, until you're not human anymore. At some point, you manage to escape - only to find you're not quite human, there's a doppleganger who stole your life, and years (even decades or longer) can have passed during the time you were gone. Top that off with the True Fae wanting to catch you and bring you back. Even the magic that you have reinforces this trauma survivor - you make bargains with reality, in order to make things easier for you.
|
|
#
?
Dec 16, 2013 05:01
|
|
|
I also love the concept of Catches when using Fae bargains. Basically, using fae magic costs Glamour, the changeling equivalent of blood points. But they're contracts with the element or ideal that you're invoking. Contracts have loopholes. If you find yourself in a circumstance that falls into the Catch of a bargain, you can use it for free instead of spending Glamour to charge it. I haven't picked up Demon yet, but I'd like to think demonic bargains would have something similar, though with a darker bent.
|
|
#
?
Dec 16, 2013 05:36
|
|
|
Gantolandon posted:In both editions of Mage, Paradox is the reality noticing that someone tampered with it, then smashing the uppity mage with something nasty. Vulgar displays of magic, meaning the ones that can't be explained as natural coincidences, invoke Paradox much more hard than coincidental ones. Using them while Sleepers (non-mages) are watching is even riskier. Also, it should be noted that the Fallen World's relationship with the Supernal one, as emphasized in the exponentially better later game books (when the writers apparently realized how boring the Atlantis myth is unless you embrace the holes in the narrative and show just how incomplete a mage's view of the universe is) is symbiotic. In its natural form, the Supernal is a confusing, formless mess of "meaning" with nowhere to go. The Fallen world provides the symbolism it needs to make sense of itself, and in return it provides meaning (and thus, reason to continue existing) to the Fallen World. As a result, an individual mage can and does augment magic with his personal view of it, but all are equally valid forms of internal symbolism (the Supernal isn't choosy). The Exarchs became gods of gently caress You, Got Mine, by turning themselves into the Iron Seals, Supernal symbols of various things that have been corrupted to serve as an instrument of control, strife, and domination. The Father, Exarch of Prime, for instance, embodies religion used as the opiate of the masses and justification for personal ambitions, while the Prophet, Exarch of Time, embodies the Great Man theory of history taken to its logical extreme (only the Great Man in question has any worth in world events, so find or create him, and attach your puppet strings). Please note that this does not mean they created those things, also some cranks in the Awakened world believe otherwise-religion and faith can be just as easily symbols of freedom ("the meek shall inherit the earth" comes to mind, as does the religious motives of many abolitionists), and Ghenghis Khan existed, for better or worse. The Exarchs just became their worst forms. So, where's the Abyss in all this? Simple; the Abyss, at its core, is a giant dam (made in the esteemed R'lyeh style of architecture) in the metaphorical river of exchange between Supernal and Fallen. It takes time and effort for the water of meaning to trickle through from the Supernal side to the Fallen side, hence why magic's so hard. Except the dam isn't the most sanitary thing in the world (the very antithesis of the term "sanitary", in fact), and a lot of the trickle of meaning is polluted with things generally inimical to life in general. A lot of the time, the natural defenses of the Fallen World filter this Abyssal pollutant out, but here's where the symbolism comes to bite mages in the rear end; certain events that resonate with the rust, or more often mages drawing too much water from the Supernal side too recklessly, a bit of the rust sneaks through the filter, and proceeds to gently caress up everyone's day. Or life. Erebro fucked around with this message at 06:22 on Dec 16, 2013 |
|
#
?
Dec 16, 2013 06:20
|
|
|
Oh hey, 80 new posts! Must be one hell of an upda--  I shouldn't have expected anything else. Realchat gatz, I love your wacky, wacky off-topic threads so very much.
|
|
#
?
Dec 16, 2013 06:29
|
|
This poster loves police brutality, but only when its against minorities!
|
Vicissitude posted:I also love the concept of Catches when using Fae bargains. Basically, using fae magic costs Glamour, the changeling equivalent of blood points. But they're contracts with the element or ideal that you're invoking. Contracts have loopholes. If you find yourself in a circumstance that falls into the Catch of a bargain, you can use it for free instead of spending Glamour to charge it. I haven't picked up Demon yet, but I'd like to think demonic bargains would have something similar, though with a darker bent. One cool thing I've always liked about new Changelings is that they have basically grafted their whole society onto the seasons and any given Changeling identifies with a season, because attaching themselves to an ordered natural cycle confuses the hell out of the True Fae and makes them much harder to track down. Which also adds another element if anyone's still wondering what sort of thing a True Fae is: It's the sort of thing that looks at the fact that Spring always follows Winter at the same time every year and thinks that is deathly dull.
|
|
#
?
Dec 16, 2013 06:55
|
|
|
I love how the thread became more or less "WoD is Awesome" 
|
|
#
?
Dec 16, 2013 07:01
|
|
|
Stroop There It Is posted:So, for the people who are feeling lost right now... (Side note, I think we should be pretty explicit whether we're talking about oWoD or nWoD, since I have a feeling that this poo poo is confusing to unfamiliar people trying to relate what we're talking about to things in Bloodlines. For example, True Fae are not a Thing in oWoD.) Bloodlines is the only WoD thing I've ever played and I thought it did a really good job of explaining what everything meant. I didn't really know anything about the setting so the fact that the character was a fledgling who also didn't know anything worked for me. To create a character I just read the descriptions and picked Gangrel since I thought it sounded like it would be fun to fight with shapeshifting and animal spirits and stuff. I never really looked much into it beyond the game (which is one of my favorites and I just recently picked it up again for a third playthrough with a Tremere) so seeing all of this other poo poo in this thread is pretty out there.
|
|
#
?
Dec 16, 2013 07:38
|
|
|
Siegkrow posted:I love how the thread became more or less "WoD is Awesome"
|
|
#
?
Dec 16, 2013 07:46
|
|
|
Video games about tabletop games tend to have deep, deep wells to draw from.
|
|
#
?
Dec 16, 2013 07:58
|
|
|
OAquinas posted:None that are explicitly Lasombra, no. The problem with their signature discipline--Obtenebration--is that it's a PITA to model properly in a game--especially on the receiving end. There are a few vampires in the game which exhibit what I took to be Lasombra abilities. It is my understanding that the majority of these are, in the Plus Patch, re-skinned and revamped into “proper” Lasombra. I look forward to seeing this with approximately equal parts anticipation and apprehension.
|
|
#
?
Dec 16, 2013 08:25
|
|
|
Kacie posted:oWoD Changeling and nWoD Changeling are very different in tone and setting. It's interesting that the Changeling line and the Dead line basically switched tones between oWoD and nWoD. So oWod changeling is fairly positive, especially compared to Wraith: The Oblivion which was some of the bleakest poo poo ever. Then in nWod the changeling line becomes this harrowing PTSD-ridden survivor story and Geist: Sin Eaters is much more positive line about getting a second chance and using your undead spirit guide to go ghostbusting.
|
|
#
?
Dec 16, 2013 12:06
|
|
|
GrimRevenant posted:revamped Heh. UrbicaMortis posted:It's interesting that the Changeling line and the Dead line basically switched tones between oWoD and nWoD. So oWod changeling is fairly positive, especially compared to Wraith: The Oblivion which was some of the bleakest poo poo ever. Yeah, as time went on WW got better and better at putting a nice selection of tone into the games. Due to the whole upcoming apocalypse thing the default was fairly depressing in oWoD, but you didn't have to breach canon to have a more uplifting or upbeat story, they just needed to pick the right subject matter. Werewolves could be Captain Planet, Vampires could be soap operas, Hunters could be Buffy and Mages could be whatever they drat well pleased. Bloodlines is a great example of this - it could easily have immersed itself in horror and alienation and inevitable doom, but while it does dip into those it's more of a character-driven drama than anything else, despite the Vampire metaplot of the time being closer to OH gently caress WE'RE ALL GONNA DIE 
|
|
#
?
Dec 16, 2013 12:28
|
|
|
Siegkrow posted:I love how the thread became more or less "WoD is Awesome" Personally, I feel that statement comes with one hell of a caveat: WoD is awesome if the DM and players are willing to work to make it so. A lot of the splats and gamelines suffer from extremely inconsistent and often mediocre writing, and you have to pick and choose what to use and what not to use. Promethean, a nWoD exclusive, for example, is awesome but very difficult to run owing to both mechanics and how deeply personal for the PCs it is: they're inhuman creatures trying to become human. My gaming group managed to turn nHunter into a light-hearted beer and pizza game, but that's not remotely what nHunter - or anything in WoD, old or new - is presented as, and the setting is decidedly not my favorite tabletop RPG in general.
|
|
#
?
Dec 16, 2013 13:13
|
|
|
I think it's better summarized as "WoD is awesome but it's also easier than most games to ruin with a couple creepy fuckers". So Don't play it with official white wolf forums denizens.
|
|
#
?
Dec 16, 2013 13:18
|
|
|
Cythereal posted:Personally, I feel that statement comes with one hell of a caveat: WoD is awesome if the DM and players are willing to work to make it so. Any good RPG can be turned into a bad RPG by the wrong people playing it. And most RPGs can be fun if the right people are playing them. Some are going to be a lot more work to make fun, but it's always pretty easy to ruin them.
|
|
#
?
Dec 16, 2013 13:45
|
|
|
Feinne posted:One cool thing I've always liked about new Changelings is that they have basically grafted their whole society onto the seasons and any given Changeling identifies with a season, because attaching themselves to an ordered natural cycle confuses the hell out of the True Fae and makes them much harder to track down. Which also adds another element if anyone's still wondering what sort of thing a True Fae is: It's the sort of thing that looks at the fact that Spring always follows Winter at the same time every year and thinks that is deathly dull. That and the idea that the people in charge willingly pass on their power, which is something that isn't just Dull to a Fae, it's completely unheard of.
|
|
#
?
Dec 16, 2013 14:01
|
|
|
Tiggum posted:Any good RPG can be turned into a bad RPG by the wrong people playing it. And most RPGs can be fun if the right people are playing them. Some are going to be a lot more work to make fun, but it's always pretty easy to ruin them. True, I'm just noting that in my experience, WoD is one of those settings that takes a lot of work to make fun. At least if you prefer beer and pizza style gaming. I like nHunter and Promethean, but the other lines feel like they'd be so much work to turn into something my gaming group would enjoy that it's not worth it. Although from what I've been reading in this and other threads, an oWerewolf game starring the Get of Fenris could be workable.
|
|
#
?
Dec 16, 2013 15:03
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 20, 2024 17:57 |
|
|
Cythereal posted:True, I'm just noting that in my experience, WoD is one of those settings that takes a lot of work to make fun. At least if you prefer beer and pizza style gaming. I like nHunter and Promethean, but the other lines feel like they'd be so much work to turn into something my gaming group would enjoy that it's not worth it. Although from what I've been reading in this and other threads, an oWerewolf game starring the Get of Fenris could be workable. In fairness, beer and pizza style gaming isn't generally what WoD aspires to be well suited for. The amount of work needed to make it fun is probably related to differing goals and expectations. (Unless it's work related to the game being simply mechanically bad but that typically doesn't apply to NWoD)
|
|
#
?
Dec 16, 2013 15:10
|
|