Coding Horrors: You can gather all your technical debt into one easy framework!

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Serious Hardware/Software Crap > The Cavern of COBOL > Coding Horrors: You can gather all your technical debt into one easy framework!

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zergstain: Dec 15, 2005

Or just use a test card number.

# ? Dec 16, 2013 14:03

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# ? May 28, 2024 23:09

Jabor: Jul 16, 2010; #1 Loser at SpaceChem

The whole "OOP is the only conceivable way to do {X}" meme is a great example of how too much OOP causes brain damage.

# ? Dec 16, 2013 14:09

Mustach: Mar 2, 2003; In this long line, there's been some real strange genes. You've got 'em all, with some extras thrown in.

Zombywuf posted:

When was it decided that OO == polymorphism? There are lots of types of polymorphism, only one involves sub-typing.

Since Simula and/or Smalltalk

# ? Dec 16, 2013 14:25

Dren: Jan 5, 2001; Pillbug

That eevee post is pretty good. Eevee's point about the methods in the controller pattern actually being state is well conceived. I knew I didn't like callbacks implemented via inheritance but I hadn't put my finger on exactly why. Eevee's post nailed it.

Lately I've been messing with some C++ classes that use the callbacks via inheritance pattern. It's a poo poo pattern, and that fact is highlighted by the base class having a member variable that contains the type of subclassed object it is. It was done so that common code in the base class could switch on the type of the class. It's pretty bad.

# ? Dec 16, 2013 14:36

tef: May 30, 2004; -> some l-system crap ->

Mustach posted:

Since Simula and/or Smalltalk

(smalltalk was about messages :3:

)

# ? Dec 16, 2013 14:36

Chin Strap: Nov 24, 2002; I failed my TFLC Toxx, but I no longer need a double chin strap; Pillbug

What is the technical term for the way Go does it? Composition? Would that still be considered OO? I like that (but still wish it had generics).

# ? Dec 16, 2013 14:47

Athas: Aug 6, 2007; fuck that joker

Mustach posted:

Since Simula and/or Smalltalk

I think the point is that while all OOP includes polymorphism, there are plenty of non-OO languages that still support polymorphism.

In Haskell, which is certainly not object-oriented by any reasonable measure, there is a way to turn objects into strings. Of course, Haskell does this with type classes. :tinfoil:

# ? Dec 16, 2013 15:20

Plorkyeran: Mar 22, 2007; To Escape The Shackles Of The Old Forums, We Must Reject The Tribal Negativity He Endorsed

Chin Strap posted:

What is the technical term for the way Go does it? Composition? Would that still be considered OO? I like that (but still wish it had generics).

Structural typing.

# ? Dec 16, 2013 15:28

Mustach: Mar 2, 2003; In this long line, there's been some real strange genes. You've got 'em all, with some extras thrown in.

Athas posted:

I think the point is that while all OOP includes polymorphism, there are plenty of non-OO languages that still support polymorphism.

Then I agree.

# ? Dec 16, 2013 16:03

HORATIO HORNBLOWER: Sep 21, 2002; no ambition,
no talent,
no chance

Dren posted:

code in the base class could switch on the type of the class.

This is the biggest loving code smell in the world and I see it all the loving time.

# ? Dec 16, 2013 16:22

Sagacity: May 2, 2003; Hopefully my epitaph will be funnier than my custom title.

Pollyanna posted:

Languages like Java with its crazy "EVERYTHING IS A CLASS" make the same mistake that's been repeated time and time again in history: it ditches a tempered approach to problem-solving and critical thinking in favor of one extreme ideology.

gently caress Java.

Please, go on. Can you give a few examples of the extreme ideology?

# ? Dec 16, 2013 17:11

Houston Rockets: Apr 15, 2006

quote:

last week we had several unmonitored hours due to an issue with the nagios server. setup another nagios instance that only monitors the nagios server itself

# ? Dec 16, 2013 19:06

QuarkJets: Sep 8, 2008

Sagacity posted:

Please, go on. Can you give a few examples of the extreme ideology?

I think he's specifically referring to "EVERYTHING IS A CLASS, NO EXCEPTIONS" as extreme ideology

# ? Dec 16, 2013 19:26

Plorkyeran: Mar 22, 2007; To Escape The Shackles Of The Old Forums, We Must Reject The Tribal Negativity He Endorsed

Which doesn't actually apply to Java, as it does have primitives.

# ? Dec 16, 2013 19:46

carry on then: Jul 10, 2010; by VideoGames
(and can't post for 10 years!)

But Java has tons of exceptions :v:

# ? Dec 16, 2013 19:46

ManoliIsFat: Oct 4, 2002

Houston Rockets posted:

Well how else would you do it?

# ? Dec 16, 2013 19:55

New Yorp New Yorp: Jul 18, 2003; Only in Kenya.; Pillbug

carry on then posted:

But Java has tons of exceptions

And checked exceptions! :barf:

# ? Dec 16, 2013 20:02

Dietrich: Sep 11, 2001

Sagacity posted:

Please, go on. Can you give a few examples of the extreme ideology?

Yes, heaven forbid you model your program as a class, as that might mean that hello-world type apps take a bit longer to write. Only a zealot would do such things.

# ? Dec 16, 2013 20:17

leftist heap: Feb 28, 2013; Fun Shoe

I know when I think of extreme ideology in programming languages, I think of Java :v:

# ? Dec 16, 2013 20:19

New Yorp New Yorp: Jul 18, 2003; Only in Kenya.; Pillbug

Dietrich posted:

Yes, heaven forbid you model your program as a class, as that might mean that hello-world type apps take a bit longer to write. Only a zealot would do such things.

But those extra 4 lines of boilerplate code are such a barrier to productivity!

Or, you can engage in ridiculous hyperbole like this acquaintance of mine:

Only registered members can see post attachments!

# ? Dec 16, 2013 20:44

carry on then: Jul 10, 2010; by VideoGames
(and can't post for 10 years!)

I don't been know what to say. Wow.

# ? Dec 16, 2013 20:49

Glimm: Jul 27, 2005; Time is only gonna pass you by

Ithaqua posted:

But those extra 4 lines of boilerplate code are such a barrier to productivity!

Or, you can engage in ridiculous hyperbole like this acquaintance of mine:

Wat. Did your acquaintance create a GUI "Hello World" and build the interface by hand, as well as, I don't know - lots of other stuff?

I haven't used much C# but that just doesn't make sense.

# ? Dec 16, 2013 20:50

ManoliIsFat: Oct 4, 2002

Ithaqua posted:

Jesus christ, what the hell did he do to that thing!? Does he mean like the WPF template has 18 files? Still, what a crappy metric.

# ? Dec 16, 2013 20:52

JawnV6: Jul 4, 2004; So hot ...

I dunno, seems about right for a naive 'wc -l *.cs'? Assume you're running the HTTP server under C# too. The kind of LOC count where you're grabbing all the whitespace too, not counting semicolons. As disingenuous as you could possibly be. Not that I'd know anything about that.

# ? Dec 16, 2013 20:54

New Yorp New Yorp: Jul 18, 2003; Only in Kenya.; Pillbug

Glimm posted:

Wat. Did your acquaintance create a GUI "Hello World" and build the interface by hand, as well as, I don't know - lots of other stuff?

I haven't used much C# but that just doesn't make sense.

He probably created an ASP .NET application and chose one of the built-in templates, which does generate a ton of files and code... but it's a full demo application (including database back-end and authentication), so regardless, he's dumb.

He's also one of those anti-"Micro$oft" zealots.

# ? Dec 16, 2013 21:13

astr0man: Feb 21, 2007; hollyeo deuroga

Why does he need five lines to do

PHP code:

echo "Hello world!";

# ? Dec 16, 2013 21:16

New Yorp New Yorp: Jul 18, 2003; Only in Kenya.; Pillbug

astr0man posted:

Why does he need five lines to do
PHP code:
echo "Hello world!";

I don't know, but keep in mind this is someone who will blindly consider PHP and ColdFusion to be better platforms than .NET based only on how many files and lines of code it takes to write "Hello World".

# ? Dec 16, 2013 21:20

Blotto Skorzany: Nov 7, 2008; He's a PSoC, loose and runnin'
came the whisper from each lip
And he's here to do some business with
the bad ADC on his chip
bad ADC on his chiiiiip

astr0man posted:

Why does he need five lines to do
PHP code:
echo "Hello world!";

That isn't a complete PHP program. Without the opening and closing tags it will fail to run, even on the command line.

# ? Dec 16, 2013 21:24

astr0man: Feb 21, 2007; hollyeo deuroga

PHP code:

<?php echo "Hello world!" ?>

is still one line :v:

# ? Dec 16, 2013 21:26

Deus Rex: Mar 5, 2005

and

PHP code:

<?= "Hello world" ?>

doesn't even contain any statements :colbert:

# ? Dec 16, 2013 21:40

Internet Janitor: May 17, 2008; "That isn't the appropriate trash receptacle."

Just drop the tags and have:

code:

Hello World

Look at all you guys with your excessive boilerplate.

# ? Dec 16, 2013 21:42

carry on then: Jul 10, 2010; by VideoGames
(and can't post for 10 years!)

Pretty sure HQ9+ is better in that regard.

code:

# ? Dec 16, 2013 21:51

Simulated: Sep 28, 2001; Lowtax giveth, and Lowtax taketh away.; College Slice

One of Java's problems is lack of function pointers/delegates/lambdas/blocks/whatever-you-call-it. That leads directly to code spaghetti and a million lines of boilerplate. That ties back into the methods-as-state problem in my mind... If you can pass bits of executable code around cleanly, it makes it easier to design and use objects properly. Java directly requires what those posts were partially about... Creation of useless stupid objects just to hold a method.

Lack of mixins/extension methods/categories is yet another thing that forces you to either layer on the boilerplate in your own project or makes the API so filled with factories and interfaces as to approximate a Rube Goldberg machine.

Type erasure is also 100% inexcusable. Unfortunately it handicaps the entire feature if you want to do anything even halfway dynamic or interesting with generics.

Java does suck. I'm sorry if that's what you learned in school or are forced to use at your soul-sucking corporate job. That doesn't change the fact that it sucks.

Edit: sorry folks, I should have paid closer attention. I am not defending Pollyanna's statement. Leaving the rest of my post here for posterity because I never pass up an opportunity to poo poo on Java.

Simulated fucked around with this message at 23:07 on Dec 16, 2013

# ? Dec 16, 2013 21:52

New Yorp New Yorp: Jul 18, 2003; Only in Kenya.; Pillbug

Ender.uNF posted:

One of Java's problems is lack of function pointers/delegates/lambdas/blocks/whatever-you-call-it. That leads directly to code spaghetti and a million lines of boilerplate. That ties back into the methods-as-state problem in my mind... If you can pass bits of executable code around cleanly, it makes it easier to design and use objects properly. Java directly requires what those posts were partially about... Creation of useless stupid objects just to hold a method.

Lack of mixins/extension methods/categories is yet another thing that forces you to either layer on the boilerplate in your own project or makes the API so filled with factories and interfaces as to approximate a Rube Goldberg machine.

Type erasure is also 100% inexcusable. Unfortunately it handicaps the entire feature if you want to do anything even halfway dynamic or interesting with generics.

Java does suck. I'm sorry if that's what you learned in school or are forced to use at your soul-sucking corporate job. That doesn't change the fact that it sucks.

Those are all reasons why C#/VB .NET are better than Java, no doubt. But Pollyanna's statement that's drawing so much derision could just as easily be applied to .NET as to Java. There are plenty of reasons that Java sucks, but the amount of boilerplate you need in order to write Hello World isn't one of them.

# ? Dec 16, 2013 21:56

JawnV6: Jul 4, 2004; So hot ...

Ender.uNF posted:

Java does suck. I'm sorry if that's what you learned in school or are forced to use at your soul-sucking corporate job. That doesn't change the fact that it sucks.

How many years of experience are you putting behind this opinion? How much experience with better languages that inform you of the tradeoffs and options available to a language designer?

Pollyanna's basing it on a couple weeks, a few blog posts, and the 3 lines of boilerplate for Hello World. Don't devalue your opinion by viewing this as a team sport and rallying behind the other person saying the same thing.

Nobody's defending java. Nobody's questioning that it sucks. We're questioning Pollyanna's strong stances on what we all know to be unsound footing.

# ? Dec 16, 2013 22:00

..btt: Mar 26, 2008

Glimm posted:

Wat. Did your acquaintance create a GUI "Hello World" and build the interface by hand, as well as, I don't know - lots of other stuff?

I haven't used much C# but that just doesn't make sense.

Here is the (complete) C# hello world example from MSDN:

code:

public class Hello1
{
   public static void Main()
   {
      System.Console.WriteLine("Hello, World!");
   }
}

I cannot imagine what batshit insane tutorial he was following. Perhaps "C# for Enterprise Java Developers"? :v:

# ? Dec 16, 2013 22:19

Factor Mystic: Mar 20, 2006; Baby's First Post-Apocalyptic Fiction

Ithaqua posted:

But those extra 4 lines of boilerplate code are such a barrier to productivity!

Or, you can engage in ridiculous hyperbole like this acquaintance of mine:

Ha, I want to get this guy's reaction to making a hello world program in Rails.

# ? Dec 16, 2013 22:19

Dren: Jan 5, 2001; Pillbug

Poor Pollyanna just wants to unleash poorly founded vitriol about Java is that so wrong?

# ? Dec 16, 2013 23:02

shrughes: Oct 11, 2008; (call/cc call/cc)

Things would just be so much better if we got rid of Java and made an intuitive visual programming language.

# ? Dec 16, 2013 23:04

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# ? May 28, 2024 23:09

Simulated: Sep 28, 2001; Lowtax giveth, and Lowtax taketh away.; College Slice

Ithaqua posted:

Those are all reasons why C#/VB .NET are better than Java, no doubt. But Pollyanna's statement that's drawing so much derision could just as easily be applied to .NET as to Java. There are plenty of reasons that Java sucks, but the amount of boilerplate you need in order to write Hello World isn't one of them.

My apologies, I edited my post. I wasn't paying attention to post history on that one.

# ? Dec 16, 2013 23:05

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Serious Hardware/Software Crap > The Cavern of COBOL > Coding Horrors: You can gather all your technical debt into one easy framework!

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