|
It's all pretend. Pretend to be a gregarious story telling dude and do it well enough and people will believe you.
|
#
?
Dec 5, 2013 23:32
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 9, 2024 08:34 |
|
|
Crossposted from stupid questions thread because I realized this thread existed. Is it inherently offensive for me (a white person) to write a story where the narrator speaks in AAVE? Or just if it's inaccurate/over the top 'Law' sakes I gotta get me some co'nbread' poo poo? As a linguist I think I can do a reasonably accurate toned-down AAVE that comes through in writing, but I don't know if it'd be offensive just on principle.
|
|
#
?
Dec 6, 2013 00:56
|
|
|
Now I'm kinda curious to see how some of my past writing reads as audio. Most of it seems like tripe now but I tried to always wrote with genuine passion and put emotion in where appropriate and be pleasant and not condescending.
|
|
#
?
Dec 6, 2013 00:58
|
|
|
God Over Djinn posted:Crossposted from stupid questions thread because I realized this thread existed. Short answer: no. Longer answer: hell, no. Even longer answer: if you think something you write is going to be offensive, the onus upon you is not to refrain from writing it; but rather to write it really well.
|
|
#
?
Dec 6, 2013 01:05
|
|
|
God Over Djinn posted:Is it inherently offensive for me (a white person) to write a story where the narrator speaks in AAVE? Or just if it's inaccurate/over the top 'Law' sakes I gotta get me some co'nbread' poo poo? As a linguist I think I can do a reasonably accurate toned-down AAVE that comes through in writing, but I don't know if it'd be offensive just on principle. I'd say so long as it's written in a way that accurately portrays real life, and is not just mocking the way some black people speak, it won't be offensive in any way. And you being white really doesn't matter at all.
|
|
#
?
Dec 6, 2013 03:14
|
|
|
Related question: I'm writing a chapter where the viewpoint character is an old, seething racist; can I get away with repeatedly referring to a black character as "colored" in the narration? It's third-person, but my third-person narration is always affected by the identity of the viewpoint character.
|
|
#
?
Dec 6, 2013 04:36
|
|
|
LaughMyselfTo posted:Related question: I'm writing a chapter where the viewpoint character is an old, seething racist; can I get away with repeatedly referring to a black character as "colored" in the narration? It's third-person, but my third-person narration is always affected by the identity of the viewpoint character. What do you mean 'get away with'? If that's a plausible thing for the age and the character then yes. If not, then no.
|
|
#
?
Dec 6, 2013 04:52
|
|
|
Cool. I thought it might be racist because it's pretty presumptive of me to pretend I understand what it's like to be black in America, or even what it's like to speak a minority dialect of English. (The story in question isn't about race except as a proxy for local/neighborhood identity, and if I was going to write explicitly about race I'd definitely do it from a white POV). Basically, I was worried I might be leaning too heavily on linguist-cred ('it's an accurate depiction, therefore it can't be racist!'). My husband usually edits my stuff and apparently he hasn't ever talked to a black person (kidding, obviously, but he doesn't have an ear for dialect at all) so he has no loving idea if it's actually accurate or not. Guess I'll find out when Thunderdome o'clock rolls around.
|
|
#
?
Dec 6, 2013 04:58
|
|
|
As a writer, you're portraying points of view and actions you have little-to-no personal experience with all the time. At least I hope you are. You don't need permission for any of that, and regional dialects should be no different. Though it's a good idea to keep it toned down and use vocabulary choice and word order to reflect dialect rather than lean too much on eccentric spelling, not just for sensitivity reasons, but because weird phonetics can put off readers, and they're harder to parse to the point of being impractical. Richard Adams has a character in "Plague Dogs" who speaks in a phonetically spelled brogue that's so thick, I had to go over his lines several times to understand what he was saying. That's too far. Leaf through some Elmore Leonard to see how a white guy writes excellent dialogue for a variety of races and classes in a way that feels natural and is easy to read. Leaf through some ZZ Packer to see how a black woman accomplishes the same thing. God Over Djinn posted:Is it inherently offensive for me (a white person) to write a story where the narrator speaks in AAVE? Or just if it's inaccurate/over the top 'Law' sakes I gotta get me some co'nbread' poo poo?
|
|
#
?
Dec 6, 2013 06:33
|
|
|
Are there other ways to be a storyteller apart from writing novels/novellas? I keep turning it around in my head, but I think I really want to be a visual story teller (eg movies, video games, etc.) most of all. Even then, doesn't that still involve writing to some degree (ie screenwriting)? Don't get me wrong, I still love writing out fiction and non-fiction, but I think my ideal outlet would be a visual medium. What other outlets does a visually-oriented storyteller have? I really, really, really want to submit an entry for the Saxxys using Source Film Maker, for example.
|
|
#
?
Dec 18, 2013 22:34
|
|
|
TheRamblingSoul posted:Are there other ways to be a storyteller apart from writing novels/novellas? I keep turning it around in my head, but I think I really want to be a visual story teller (eg movies, video games, etc.) most of all. Even then, doesn't that still involve writing to some degree (ie screenwriting)? Don't get me wrong, I still love writing out fiction and non-fiction, but I think my ideal outlet would be a visual medium. Most movies and games are huge, collaborative efforts, and there are many ways to get involved. This thread is probably not the best place to find out how, though, since it is explicitly focused on fiction writing. For more independent visual mediums, animation and comics both come to mind, though those can certainly be collaborative as well. There are mega-threads in this forum for screenwriting, comics/graphic novels, animation, 3d animation, videography, and photography. I'm not going to go look for the links because I'm on my phone, but they are all probably on the first or second page of the forum and tend to be fairly active.
|
|
#
?
Dec 18, 2013 22:42
|
|
|
What's stopping you using Source filmmaker then? I do think being better at writing stories etc is never going to hurt the way you use other media, but it's not a requirement. But ultimately you've just got to do it until you get good at it.
|
|
#
?
Dec 18, 2013 22:47
|
|
|
TheRamblingSoul posted:Are there other ways to be a storyteller apart from writing novels/novellas? I keep turning it around in my head, but I think I really want to be a visual story teller (eg movies, video games, etc.) most of all. Even then, doesn't that still involve writing to some degree (ie screenwriting)? Don't get me wrong, I still love writing out fiction and non-fiction, but I think my ideal outlet would be a visual medium. One of my tutors is literally a story-teller. He writes novels as well, but his main focus is just telling stories at events and things. He gave a talk on it and it was really interesting how you construct it initially and then evolve it. For a lot of people I think just writing is easier because they don't have to learn many new skills and/or rely on other people. That's always been my main problem with comics, locking down an artist or something. It's a shame because the only real comic project I've done turned out pretty well and I had a good time working on it, and I'd like to explore that medium more. If anyone is interested in the five page thing it's 'Golden Gate' and you can find it here.
|
|
#
?
Dec 19, 2013 00:10
|
|
|
http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3563549 ^^Example of how difficult it can be as a single person trying to do storytelling in a visual medium.
|
|
#
?
Dec 19, 2013 02:03
|
|
|
I need a thesaurus for physical gestures. My characters are animated. I want them to express themselves through words but through movement as well. Unfortunately, my brain is making GBS threads the bed when finding a word to describe common activities. A person holds their hands up to the sky, palms up, and says, "I have no idea what you're talking about." - what is that? A shrug? An energetic shrug? A surrender? A person waves a hand, face down, in dismissal at something and says, "nah, gently caress that." - what is that? A wave of dismissal? A high-five of negativity? A person, exasperated at trying to find the right words, shakes their head while leaning forward and holds out their hands, palms facing each other, fingers stretching outward, in a "gently caress if I know" gesture. (the hands open as the head shakes, as if emptying pennies to the ground?) What the gently caress is that called? A surrender? A shrug of surrendering? I need a thesaurus for physical gestures. Oh, and, hello all you Thunderdome people and your baiting poor unsuspecting people to join you in the peaceful valley of the dome. I've BEEN there. I know what it's like. You go in there, you come out, changed somehow. My eyes just widened, my head stretched forward in a gesture of "I know a secret". What the gently caress is that movement called? magnificent7 fucked around with this message at 19:22 on Dec 19, 2013 |
|
#
?
Dec 19, 2013 19:20
|
|
|
why not just describe them pretty much how you just did? although, i'm partial to the "high-five of negativity"
|
|
#
?
Dec 19, 2013 20:04
|
|
|
Yeah, just slightly less overwrought. The thing is you don't need to have a thesaurus because the dialogue/description you attach to the basic action will contextualise the action for your reader. You can either get tricky and find a nice but clear way of expressing, say, dismissal physically - e.g. "he brushed the suggestion aside with his hand", or more commonly, just describe what happens "he threw his hands into the air" and then contextualise with dialogue - "Christ, I don't loving care!".
|
|
#
?
Dec 19, 2013 20:14
|
|
|
This is a real thing that exists. The Emotion Thesaurus: A Writer's Guide To Character Expression http://amzn.com/1475004958 I haven't read it or used it so this isn't a recommendation, per se. I think relying on this book and others like it could result in pretty cliched writing. It's probably better to observe people in real life and make your own.
|
|
#
?
Dec 19, 2013 21:02
|
|
|
I usually hear this component of writing described as 'blocking'. I dunno if that'll help you Google!
|
|
#
?
Dec 19, 2013 21:21
|
|
|
Dr. Kloctopussy posted:This is a real thing that exists. Now THAT'S what I'm talking about. Serpentinely nodding my head like a redneck getting handed a cold bud light in the parking lot after work.
|
|
#
?
Dec 19, 2013 21:28
|
|
|
magnificent7 posted:Now THAT'S what I'm talking about. That is a good line.
|
|
#
?
Dec 19, 2013 22:15
|
|
|
Dr. Kloctopussy posted:This is a real thing that exists. I started looking through that on Amazon and actually found it to be helpful enough to get for my Kindle. I've often had a lot of problems describing body language for certain emotions and it seems to have some interesting things covered like jealousy, impatience, shyness and such. Nika fucked around with this message at 06:19 on Jul 14, 2014 |
|
#
?
Dec 20, 2013 08:45
|
|
|
In answer to your question, some of us had good experiences with 50 Writing Tools, which also seems to be available in audio (free) form. Very discrete tips, very well illustrated with examples, which mean you can actually use them. In answer to the question behind your question, we all have to get used to being a bit shite. Writing would (more of) a joke of a profession if any good writer could sit down at his desk and turn the money tap. Kevin Barry (possibly my favourite short story writer) said, 'sometimes I just write "and then he strode to the blah blah blah," anything to keep going. I'm not quite brave enough to do that, but you can see the sense in it.
|
|
#
?
Dec 20, 2013 09:52
|
|
|
TheRamblingSoul posted:Are there other ways to be a storyteller apart from writing novels/novellas? I keep turning it around in my head, but I think I really want to be a visual story teller (eg movies, video games, etc.) most of all. Even then, doesn't that still involve writing to some degree (ie screenwriting)? Don't get me wrong, I still love writing out fiction and non-fiction, but I think my ideal outlet would be a visual medium. This is obviously a sidenote to the main thrust of the thread, but lemme know if you decide to pursue animating with SFM or Poser or something. I've been starting to seriously consider trying to learn 3D animation myself, for much the same reason, and it'd be cool to have someone else to learn with so we're not alone in the madness.
|
|
#
?
Dec 20, 2013 10:43
|
|
|
sebmojo posted:That is a good line. Just drop "serpentinely." Or say it better. But seriously, it's a good line. If you can come up with that kind of poo poo off the top of your head, you don't need no emotion thesaurus.
|
|
#
?
Dec 20, 2013 12:43
|
|
|
Symptomless Coma posted:In answer to your question, some of us had good experiences with 50 Writing Tools, which also seems to be available in audio (free) form. Very discrete tips, very well illustrated with examples, which mean you can actually use them. Seconding this. I normally would say to avoid reading about writing and just write, but this book is a very helpful and well-organized resource. I read it around a year ago but I'm ready to re-read it again. You really have to be writing stuff while you do this and consciously applying the individual tools or you'll probably just completely forget them.
|
|
#
?
Dec 20, 2013 14:07
|
|
|
Martello posted:Just drop "serpentinely." Or say it better. But seriously, it's a good line. If you can come up with that kind of poo poo off the top of your head, you don't need no emotion thesaurus. Serpentinely is kind of an awkward word, too many suffixes. I like sinuously. e: Maybe not in that sentence though.
|
|
#
?
Dec 20, 2013 14:11
|
|
|
I liked 20 Master Plots. Yeah the title sounds super boring but it's honestly a great book about plotting. It explains the structure of each plot clearly and why they're like that (why does the hero usually take three attempts before he finally succeeds in the Escape plot?). Also I learned the difference between Quest and Adventure from that book.
|
|
#
?
Dec 20, 2013 14:16
|
|
|
Anyone have any reviews of Elements of Fiction Writing - Conflict and Suspense? I think I'm definitely partial towards writing thriller stories, especially ones rooted in human conflict in a tightly-knit group (think the Zero Escape series or The Walking Dead). Is there anything else I should read to help with thriller/suspense writing?
|
|
#
?
Dec 20, 2013 15:36
|
|
|
Yes. Thrillers/suspense.
|
|
#
?
Dec 20, 2013 15:41
|
|
|
TheRamblingSoul posted:Anyone have any reviews of Elements of Fiction Writing - Conflict and Suspense?
|
|
#
?
Dec 20, 2013 17:49
|
|
|
Blade_of_tyshalle posted:Yes. Thrillers/suspense. Fiction Writing: Advice and Discussion: The Answer is "Read More" For writing books, it depends on what you want and this may not apply, but I always recommend How Not to Write a Novel and Eats, Shoots & Leaves as general suggestions for being both hilarious and informative.
|
|
#
?
Dec 20, 2013 21:31
|
|
|
Nika posted:I started looking through that on Amazon and actually found it to be helpful enough to get for my Kindle. I've often had a lot of problems describing body language for certain emotions and it seems to have some interesting things covered like jealousy, impatience, shyness and such. A first draft is always going to be crap. That's what it's there for. It's a draft, a practice, a space to stretch your words and get your hooks into what you're trying to say. You shouldn't try to edit it as you go or worry about writing drafts that are "perfect." If you do that, you'll likely never finish anything. Just complete your draft, as terrible as you think it may be, and then go back and clean it up. I understand your pain, though. I've had the same problem. There are actually writing apps for this issue that won't let you go back and edit. I think Write or Die does that and the online word processor "Draft" has what it calls "Hemingway Mode" that does the same thing.
|
|
#
?
Dec 21, 2013 09:33
|
|
|
violetdragon posted:A first draft is always going to be crap. That's what it's there for. It's a draft, a practice, a space to stretch your words and get your hooks into what you're trying to say. You shouldn't try to edit it as you go or worry about writing drafts that are "perfect." If you do that, you'll likely never finish anything. Just complete your draft, as terrible as you think it may be, and then go back and clean it up. The first draft exists so you can write the words. The second draft exists so you can write the right words.
|
|
#
?
Dec 24, 2013 15:44
|
|
|
I have so many problems in regards to writing. First one is I'm not writing in my native language because, for some reason, whenever I write in it it just feels clumsy and doesn't sound right. Probably because most of the books I've read have been in English (Because it's always better to read in the original language when possible) Second one is I can not get the balance right between world building and stuff actually happening, or at least I feel I can not get it right. Third problem is pacing. I'm trying to write a book I thought at first was going to be maybe 200 pages but I'm at page 18 and I'm not even close to the point in the story I want to be. I guess the finished story will be closer to 700 pages if I can finish it. I still haven't finished the first draft (as I said I'm only on page 18 because depression happened because I worked 2 months and got no pay and then got fired and still haven't gotten paid and I have no loving money or job etc) and I'm worried like gently caress about the tone since I think it changes all the time based on what I've been reading, what TV shows I've been watching etc. This writing poo poo is hard. But right now it might be the only thing keeping me from going insane, at least until I can get a job. Anyway, how many writers know how long any given book will be when they set out to write it? When I started writing I had a pretty clear beginning and end, but the ideas for the middle parts are getting bigger and bigger. I fear at some point there might be some bloat there, and at that point the book that was supposed to be 200-300 pages might become 700 pages. And how do you deal with the tone-shift problem, assuming I'm not the only one experiencing it? I want the book to be serious but not devoid of humor, but at the same time there shouldn't be too much comedy. The worrying thing is I'm subconsciously copying or mimicking whatever I've read or watched lately and though I try to watch myself so I don't outright steal stuff things might be slipping through the cracks that I don't notice.
|
|
#
?
Dec 27, 2013 04:34
|
|
|
organburner posted:I have so many problems in regards to writing. Post some of your stuff. This kind of abstract question is very hard to answer without examples.
|
|
#
?
Dec 27, 2013 04:52
|
|
|
RE: length, if you're planning to write a viable genre debut novel in (say) fantasy, shoot for 100,000 words. Do not go above 110,000. And if this is the first thing you've really sat down to write, embrace the fact that it's probably going to be awful and just power through it.
|
|
#
?
Dec 27, 2013 05:48
|
|
|
organburner posted:Second one is I can not get the balance right between world building and stuff actually happening, or at least I feel I can not get it right. These sound really connected to me. I think what helped me was reexaming my how blocking or world building was being used to slow or quicken the pace of a chapter. I wanna say I read about it in Self Editing for Fiction Writers. You try to sprinkle it throughout to maintain whatever pace you might want a scene to have. The difference between a character answering (or deflecting) a question immediately or with some blocking in between. If you rethink world building or exposition and relate it to your pacing, it might help a little bit. For length, you kind of get a feel with practice. I agree with the seb, post samples.
|
|
#
?
Dec 27, 2013 06:09
|
|
|
My own proclivity is to utterly eschew exposition. I'm always afraid of it clunking and dragging, and I think it's because it goes by so much slower writing than it would reading, so it seems like it's just too much on my end. Thus, I have really spare descriptions and backstories, and then it just feels like endless talking heads! Incidentally, this is why having an outside reader is a good thing. They'll know, and they'll know better than you do, what your failings are.
|
|
#
?
Dec 27, 2013 20:02
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 9, 2024 08:34 |
|
|
Okay, here's a small sample of some exposition. "“drat....” They kept walking through the deserted streets. Nikodemus hadn’t noticed the charred bodies that seemed to be everywhere, faces frozen in mid-scream. There were burned out car wrecks and the sidewalks were filled with debris. “Okay Daniel, since you know what’s going on here, what the hell is the plan?” “Plan? Right now our only priority is to get out of here.” “Out of here, and then where?” “I was thinking the old arms factory.” The old arms factory had been built during the war, when Russia invaded Europe again. After heavy fighting most cities east of Helsinki had been evacuated, and many of the refugees had moved to Norway to the war refugee camp that became known as Uusi Porvoo. Norway decided to build a new arms factory there to keep up with the high demand of weapons, and once the war had ended the factory was shut down, but the city that had been built around it for the workers remained, even if most of the workers had since moved away. Now the factory building still stood there, empty. It was a big place surrounded by open fields, the nearest buildings being 300 meters away and the nearest forest 500. “Okay, that sounds like a good idea, but we-” Nikodemus was interrupted mid-sentence by Daniel who covered Nikodemus’ mouth with his hand and pushed him against the wall. He made the “shush” sign. Nikodemus heard what Daniel was hearing, the sounds of beating wings, bigger wings than any of the angels so far had shown. Daniel removed his hand and crept along the wall to the next corner, Nikodemus followed. " I try to keep "unnatural" (I guess you might call it the narrated) exposition to a minimum (like one paragraph, two at the most), but then there's like a page and a half of conversation between two people that are also exposition (There's some other stuff going on as well though) and on the one hand I'm worried that might be too much but on the other hand it's kind of important stuff I feel. Otherwise it's 16 pages of pure action, if you take away the one and a half page of exposition. Also I really need to find someone who would read this for me, unfortunately I don't know a whole lot of people irl that like to read this kind of stuff. Then again I also want to have a little more before I do that. Also also just reading through the little I have so far I am already finding so many things that need fixing but if I start getting hung up on that now I will never continue actually writing. So whatever, I'll fix it in post. EDIT: This also reminds me of yet another problem I have that I understand is pretty common: Whenever I re-read what I've written I think it's poo poo, or feels fake. I guess this is another one of these things you just have to power through though and keep working at. organburner fucked around with this message at 22:49 on Dec 27, 2013 |
|
#
?
Dec 27, 2013 22:32
|
|