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In 3E a Cleric is a slightly less good at fighting Fighter, slightly worse attacks, actions, and feats. But, it has more than enough casting potential to make up for that gap, and then some. Taking 2 (or 4) levels of Fighter gets you some extra combat feats and HP early on, and doesn't massively screw your casting. I'?d only do 2, personally, because delaying your high level spells and weakening spells that have "per caster level" effects, isn't worth Weapon Spec's mediocre +2 damage. I don't know exactly how far IWD2 jumps from the standard 3E rules though, so that might not be exactly right, but it's why you don't really see a Level 20 Fighter in 3.x Edition.
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Dec 18, 2013 19:42
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Factor_VIII posted:I keep seeing that repeated and I don't see why people say it. Fighters work very well as warriors. They might not have any class-specific abilities other than weapon specialization, but they get a ton of feats. This means that they can quickly specialize in a weapon and acquire other useful feats such as cleave. And later they can use all their feats to boost their saves or other attributes or specialize in multiple weapons for added flexibility. And unlike say Monks or Paladins you don't have to worry about Multiple Ability score Dependence, which is more of an issue in IWD2 since you have a set number of ability points and can't just keep rerolling until you can almost have straight 18s. Just have high Str and Con and a decent Dex for a melee combatant (and a decent Wis for the Will saves) or high Dex and decent Str for a ranged combatant. I don't typically take any straight fighters but that's mostly because they're sort of boring. You don't get to do much with them beyond sic them on the nearest/most threatening target.
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Dec 18, 2013 19:44
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Sloober posted:I don't typically take any straight fighters but that's mostly because they're sort of boring. You don't get to do much with them beyond sic them on the nearest/most threatening target. Thank you for saying that - same here. At least paladins get some spells to cast and buttons to press, but fighters just walk up to things and hit them with weapons or possibly stand back and hit them with ranged weapons. I have this problem in a lot of games, and oftentimes taking the pure warrior-type is desirable from a power-gaming perspective, but most of the time I'd rather have a class that's fun to play and suffer a bit.
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Dec 18, 2013 19:58
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Sloober posted:I don't typically take any straight fighters but that's mostly because they're sort of boring. You don't get to do much with them beyond sic them on the nearest/most threatening target. Then again I generally like to have warrior-heavy parties since they need relatively little micromanagement (other than pointing all of them to a single target after their previous one dies).
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Dec 18, 2013 20:02
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There aren't enough good and worthwhile feats in IWD2 to make the Fighter bonus feats worthwhile so you're better off just going 4 Fighter and then a bunch of Barbarian.
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Dec 18, 2013 20:02
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I'm running a straight Paladin 2 (for the aura and ability to wield the holy avenger mostly)/Fighter X in IWD2 and I certainly don't regret it so far. Having a no-micro character is great. By the way, I'd recommend anyone to go through with a Monk 3/Druid X shape-shifter sometime, it's super fun! Sure shape-shifting gets a bit weak later on, but you can finish normal before that at least. That +5 or more Wisdom AC (assuming you max Wis - and since you don't need the physical stats much since they don't work in shifting forms anyway, why wouldn't you do that?), Still Mind and Evasion are super handy in shape-shifting forms, and since stat buffs from spells work on them too you can get solid boosts to their weak stats (except the Boar's lovely 10 Dex) with just early-level spells like Cat's Grace/Strength of One. Only downer is that both Boar and Winter Wolf have huge issues (Boar's lovely Dex makes it easy to hit and it moves like a snail without Haste; Wolf only has 1 attack/round base) and you have another 3 levels + potential racial ECL increase to work through before Polar Bear. That said, mine is still very much pulling her weight with just the Boar shape-change so far.
Insurrectionist fucked around with this message at 20:11 on Dec 18, 2013 |
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Dec 18, 2013 20:07
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Factor_VIII posted:That might be an issue if you're just running a single character, but I think that if you're managing a whole party having a couple of characters that need no micromanagement and who you can just point at the enemies and let them do their thing on their own is a good thing. You don't have to argue favor for the class; yeah they can stand under their own merit but at the end of the game many classes can fight reasonably well and also have more tools in their toolbox that will help out.
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Dec 18, 2013 20:09
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The bonus feats allow a straight fighter to reach their combat potential very quickly, which is good, but you eventually run out of good feats to take and then you're just adding on things you don't really need because you haven't taken them yet. In terms of a multi-class character, especially a caster, you're better off with only a handful of fighter levels, as opposed to the back-and-forth approach that mimics what 2nd Edition multi-classing does. Get the HP and feats you want and get back to learning new magic. On another level of blah, rangers got the short end of the class stick in IWD2. I forget what rangers even do that's special in that game. Tracking? I think they got an overhaul between 3.0 and 3.5 in PnP as well. One thing about 3rd edition, which was hard for me to wrap my head around at first, is the separation of character and class identity. Because your class is so liquid and you can change at any time the "title" is not as important as what each level brings to the table. Where I get tripped up is thinking inside the box of "this character is a rogue, so they can only do this, this, and this" but you have a lot more freedom to create characters who can do exactly what you want. The downside comes from the danger of screwing it up.
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Dec 18, 2013 21:50
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Leofish posted:One thing about 3rd edition, which was hard for me to wrap my head around at first, is the separation of character and class identity. Because your class is so liquid and you can change at any time the "title" is not as important as what each level brings to the table.
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Dec 18, 2013 22:05
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Factor_VIII posted:Someone afraid of messing up could just stick to making single-classed characters. They're perfectly functional and I don't think there's really a need for multiclassing. Personally I'd suggest not taking any levels in other classes for dedicated casters. Even a 2 level dip means you lag a spell level behind. It's always seemed to me that multiclassing is where you go once you've figured the system out a bit and know how to stack character combinations wells (along with being able to see the long term effects of a given class). My IWD2 party only has the paladin having a bit of a multiclass into fighter with everyone else going pure class. From what I read the fighter is going to be in a bit of trouble (I've basically hit the point where I'm running out of feats I want) but other than that having a pure wizard, cleric, sorceror, thief seems to be doing alright.
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Dec 18, 2013 23:33
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Is there anyway to teleport to a world map location without going through an edge of map transition? I ask because BG2:EE has failed me at the last gasp - trying to leave Amkethran to Abazigal's Lair or Sendai's Enclave causes an instant crash.
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Dec 18, 2013 23:56
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Stumiester posted:Is there anyway to teleport to a world map location without going through an edge of map transition? I ask because BG2:EE has failed me at the last gasp - trying to leave Amkethran to Abazigal's Lair or Sendai's Enclave causes an instant crash. Use the debug mode CLUA console to move to the right area code. I don't actually know how to do this, I've somehow never needed to use the console even after 12+ years of playing the BG series, so I never bothered to look it up.
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Dec 19, 2013 00:03
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kingcom posted:It's always seemed to me that multiclassing is where you go once you've figured the system out a bit and know how to stack character combinations wells (along with being able to see the long term effects of a given class). My IWD2 party only has the paladin having a bit of a multiclass into fighter with everyone else going pure class. From what I read the fighter is going to be in a bit of trouble (I've basically hit the point where I'm running out of feats I want) but other than that having a pure wizard, cleric, sorceror, thief seems to be doing alright. Classes that get most of their strength out of abilities that improve with every (or close to every) level they have get the most out of remaining pure-classes. Spellcasters and monks are the classic examples. Other classes, like fighters, paladins, rangers, and arguably thieves, find their useful level-based abilities petering out past a certain point, which is where picking up levels in other classes comes into play.
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Dec 19, 2013 00:05
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Cythereal posted:Classes that get most of their strength out of abilities that improve with every (or close to every) level they have get the most out of remaining pure-classes. Spellcasters and monks are the classic examples. Other classes, like fighters, paladins, rangers, and arguably thieves, find their useful level-based abilities petering out past a certain point, which is where picking up levels in other classes comes into play. Sure thats my point though, the biggest difficulty with D&D 3.x is you dont know the consequences of taking certain levels until long after you've made that decision. I mean my fighter is level 12 now and its only just at this point im realising that its a worse decision than mixing it up. Alternatively I have a 6 fighter/6 paladin and hes basically getting a pretty solid curve on feats and advancements.
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Dec 19, 2013 00:19
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kingcom posted:Sure thats my point though, the biggest difficulty with D&D 3.x is you dont know the consequences of taking certain levels until long after you've made that decision. I mean my fighter is level 12 now and its only just at this point im realising that its a worse decision than mixing it up. Alternatively I have a 6 fighter/6 paladin and hes basically getting a pretty solid curve on feats and advancements. On the other hand, you have the freedom to go fighter 12 or fighter 6/paladin 6 as you please. Character optimization isn't necessary unless you're playing a difficulty level where thorough knowledge of the game is both assumed and mandatory. In which case your party probably consists of one tank and five spellcasters.
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Dec 19, 2013 00:30
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This may be of only limited usefulness, but if you're struggling with party/character ideas in IWD2, take a look at the pre-generated parties. Each party was designed by a different IWD2 designer and for it to be included, the designer had to play through the entire game with that party. Some parties are more difficult/unusual than others (my party, The Hands of Fury, has a few weirdos in it), but they were all viable.
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Dec 19, 2013 00:32
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Stumiester posted:Is there anyway to teleport to a world map location without going through an edge of map transition? I ask because BG2:EE has failed me at the last gasp - trying to leave Amkethran to Abazigal's Lair or Sendai's Enclave causes an instant crash. Use the console? e: f;b
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Dec 19, 2013 00:36
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Cat Army 
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Cythereal posted:On the other hand, you have the freedom to go fighter 12 or fighter 6/paladin 6 as you please. Character optimization isn't necessary unless you're playing a difficulty level where thorough knowledge of the game is both assumed and mandatory. In which case your party probably consists of one tank and five spellcasters. Yeah, I mean I seem to be carving my way through the game okay. Christmas lights paladin buffing seems to be getting me through the game (the paladin basically took on two dragons by himself so I think its alright) though I'm just playing on classic. The most trouble I had funnily enough was the goblin fortress at the start of the game where they hit the drums and spawn infinite wolves. I think I have enough dnd knowledge to know those handful of game winning techniques that just seem mandatory to go through any of the infinity engines (except maybe BG1?). I've never finished the IWD games so we'll see (up to the mindflayer fortress). rope kid posted:This may be of only limited usefulness, but if you're struggling with party/character ideas in IWD2, take a look at the pre-generated parties. Each party was designed by a different IWD2 designer and for it to be included, the designer had to play through the entire game with that party. Some parties are more difficult/unusual than others (my party, The Hands of Fury, has a few weirdos in it), but they were all viable. Who was responsible for the 'use the thief with improved evasion as fireball bait' tip because that has gotten me through most of the tough fights in the game so far. Additionally my fighter now grabbed that feat so I drop a haste + protection from fire and have him charge blindly past everything to the spell caster followed by fireballs (please include such shenanigans in PoE). EDIT: I think thats actually a better point, your brain doesn't automatically assume that shooting fireballs at your own characters is a good idea until you take a look at the mechanics of save vs damage being almost always a win for you. I think thats actually one of the hardest mental curves for me to get around. kingcom fucked around with this message at 00:48 on Dec 19, 2013 |
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Dec 19, 2013 00:45
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kingcom posted:Who was responsible for the 'use the thief with improved evasion as fireball bait' tip because that has gotten me through most of the tough fights in the game so far. Additionally my fighter now grabbed that feat so I drop a haste + protection from fire and have him charge blindly past everything to the spell caster followed by fireballs (please include such shenanigans in PoE).
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Dec 19, 2013 00:57
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rope kid posted:I did. Targeting Rogues and Monks with Fireballs: How It's Meant to Be Played™ Turned the ice fortress falling stairs fight from a pain to the rogue casually waltzing up to the big villain and murdering her. Theres a certain liberation to knowing that a fireball to the face is something you want to happen.
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Dec 19, 2013 01:03
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I love soloing these games but I still can't solo IWD1 with a single-class thief. Any pointers, or is the Thief just that bad?
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Dec 19, 2013 01:17
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It's been going on for a couple of pages now but as cool as an EE of Icewind Dale / 2 would be, such a venture would have to go through Obsidian, since they own all the art assets at least. Best case scenario is the profit is split three ways (with an added publisher) and funding comes from one, which means it will probably never happen. I imagine those games as being niche enough to be dubious investments, anyway.
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Dec 19, 2013 01:34
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Leofish posted:On another level of blah, rangers got the short end of the class stick in IWD2. I forget what rangers even do that's special in that game. Tracking? I think they got an overhaul between 3.0 and 3.5 in PnP as well. I posted about this just a couple of pages ago but rangers are good in IWD2. Use them as full bab dedicated archers who stick around and protect your casters as secondary melee. Take orc and then goblin favoured enemys for +1(and increasing) attack and +4 damage against 90% of the enemies for the first big chunk of the game. Orc shamans and goblin sorcerers won't get a spell off. They can also scout, get some good druid spells and can switch in 4 fighter for bow specialization if you aren't as fussed about spells.
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Dec 19, 2013 01:36
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kingcom posted:Sure thats my point though, the biggest difficulty with D&D 3.x is you dont know the consequences of taking certain levels until long after you've made that decision. I mean my fighter is level 12 now and its only just at this point im realising that its a worse decision than mixing it up. Alternatively I have a 6 fighter/6 paladin and hes basically getting a pretty solid curve on feats and advancements. That's just the nature of 3.x versus 2. Vastly more options, but also there's a shitload of booby trap choices that gently caress you later and the only way to know about them is to know intricacies of the rules going in. It's a LOT easier to gently caress up and make a totally awful, unplayable character in 3 than 2.
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Dec 19, 2013 01:39
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MrTheDevious posted:That's just the nature of 3.x versus 2. Vastly more options, but also there's a shitload of booby trap choices that gently caress you later and the only way to know about them is to know intricacies of the rules going in. Yeah absolutely though again, thats why I think its much safer to ignore multiclassing until you've seen how single classes go through their lives.
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Dec 19, 2013 01:45
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Stumiester posted:Is there anyway to teleport to a world map location without going through an edge of map transition? I ask because BG2:EE has failed me at the last gasp - trying to leave Amkethran to Abazigal's Lair or Sendai's Enclave causes an instant crash. CLUAConsole:MoveToArea("AR#") I know too many of these codes by heart. Best I can tell, and assuming the EE hasn't hosed with anything, the designations for their initial areas are 6000 and 6100 respectively.
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Dec 19, 2013 02:44
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I'd like to see an EE of the IWD's if for no other reason than to get them on my iPad. I'd like to see Planscape Torment too. rope kid posted:This may be of only limited usefulness, but if you're struggling with party/character ideas in IWD2, take a look at the pre-generated parties. Each party was designed by a different IWD2 designer and for it to be included, the designer had to play through the entire game with that party. Some parties are more difficult/unusual than others (my party, The Hands of Fury, has a few weirdos in it), but they were all viable. That's an awesome stipulation.
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Dec 19, 2013 02:45
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Basic Chunnel posted:It's been going on for a couple of pages now but as cool as an EE of Icewind Dale / 2 would be, such a venture would have to go through Obsidian, since they own all the art assets at least. Best case scenario is the profit is split three ways (with an added publisher) and funding comes from one, which means it will probably never happen. I imagine those games as being niche enough to be dubious investments, anyway. Why would Obsidian own any of the rights? It was a Black Isle (Interplay) game.
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Dec 19, 2013 02:53
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Rulebook Heavily posted:I love soloing these games but I still can't solo IWD1 with a single-class thief. Any pointers, or is the Thief just that bad? Single-class Thieves in AD&D are simply not very good at anything other than disarming traps; backstab is powerful at low levels but doesn't really compare favorably to the damage output of a warrior with specialization for anything but insta-gibbing vulnerable Mages. They level up rapidly, but benefit less from doing so than warriors or casters and that rapid leveling actually just makes them better multiclassers. The kits in Baldur's Gate make them considerably more dangerous in combat from one angle or another, but a Bounty Hunter is still the only one I'd consider taking as a full single-class character alone or in an optimized party. Fighter/Thieves and Thief/Mages are great and fun characters in both the IE games and tabletop, but I think a pure Thief is the weakest single-class character in a system where multi-and-dual class characters rule the roost. And RE: using allies as bait for AoE spells, keep in mind that you can also use gear or buffs that provide elemental resistance/immunity or something like free action to do the same kind of tricks. You can use a Fighter without Evasion the same way!
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Dec 19, 2013 02:57
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Zombies' Downfall posted:Single-class Thieves in AD&D are simply not very good at anything other than disarming traps; backstab is powerful at low levels but doesn't really compare favorably to the damage output of a warrior with specialization for anything but insta-gibbing vulnerable Mages. They level up rapidly, but benefit less from doing so than warriors or casters and that rapid leveling actually just makes them better multiclassers. The kits in Baldur's Gate make them considerably more dangerous in combat from one angle or another, but a Bounty Hunter is still the only one I'd consider taking as a full single-class character alone or in an optimized party. Anyone who doesn't use the Freedom/web combo is probably a communist. 
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Dec 19, 2013 04:20
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MegaGatts posted:Anyone who doesn't use the Freedom/web combo is probably a communist. I believe you mean Free Action/Web, unless you're lobbing Imprisonments at webbed foes.
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Dec 19, 2013 04:28
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Smol posted:Why would Obsidian own any of the rights? It was a Black Isle (Interplay) game. I seem to recall that somewhere along the strange road that video game assets travel, Obsidian acquired ownership to the art assets of Icewind Dale.
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Dec 19, 2013 05:10
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prometheusbound2 posted:I seem to recall that somewhere along the strange road that video game assets travel, Obsidian acquired ownership to the art assets of Icewind Dale. They acquired the entire Icewind Dale IP by buying it when Interplay went under, actually !
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Dec 19, 2013 05:16
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Jesus christ I just started ToB with my wild mage that I have taken through 1 and 2 on core rules and it's brutal, fire giants are two shotting my front liners (usually Sarevok and Jaheira, they have -10 and -5 or 6 AC) and hexxat is getting squashed. Any tips? every encounter is a reload and buff fest with my PC the most survivable because the staff of magi has infinite invis. I got to room with four fire giants and everybody died in about 2 seconds apart from the PC So for a laugh I decided to stack the 3 chaos shields I had in spell sequencer with an improved chaos shield, cast simulacra and went on a timestop, reckless dweomer > summon fiend > reckless dweomer wail of the banshee > reckless dweomer horrid wilting > reckless dweomer limited wish > refresh spells repeat x 3 and when the game came back to life it chugged, everything died and it crashed :/ Chaos shields do stack right?
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Dec 19, 2013 12:55
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JohnnyBigPotatoes posted:Jesus christ I just started ToB with my wild mage that I have taken through 1 and 2 on core rules and it's brutal, fire giants are two shotting my front liners (usually Sarevok and Jaheira, they have -10 and -5 or 6 AC) and hexxat is getting squashed. Fire giants are nasty fuckers, at -10 AC the elite ones only need a roll of 1 to hit your dudes. Either roll with -24 AC (drops their hit rate to <30%), stack physical/fire resist outta the wazoo, or use a mage (PFMW, etc). Jaheira should be able to take them with Ironskins (fire giants still do 1d6 fire damage through it) but in general most fighter types are completely incapable of tanking stuff in ToB unless they can get to the AC cap or 75%+ physical resists. Corvinus fucked around with this message at 13:31 on Dec 19, 2013 |
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Dec 19, 2013 13:26
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I like to cast Strength (lvl 2 mage spell) on them; it's a beneficial spell so they don't get to save against it and setting their strength to 18/50 is a dramatic LOSS for them. It also lasts 1 turn/level so at ToB levels there is no worry of it running out mid-battle.
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Dec 19, 2013 13:37
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Excelzior posted:I like to cast Strength (lvl 2 mage spell) on them; it's a beneficial spell so they don't get to save against it and setting their strength to 18/50 is a dramatic LOSS for them. It also lasts 1 turn/level so at ToB levels there is no worry of it running out mid-battle. I think they have 23 STR, so bringing them down to 18/50 is a 4 THAC0 and 8 damage reduction. Also a good idea to have a good ranged weapon for your non-tanky frontliners so they can plink away without getting squashed.
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Dec 19, 2013 13:42
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Excelzior posted:I like to cast Strength (lvl 2 mage spell) on them; it's a beneficial spell so they don't get to save against it and setting their strength to 18/50 is a dramatic LOSS for them. It also lasts 1 turn/level so at ToB levels there is no worry of it running out mid-battle. That's amazing. I've literally never thought about this before, and I've been playing these games for 10 years.
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Dec 19, 2013 13:56
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In Throne of Bhaal you want your front line fighters to stack resistances instead of AC. You can get physical resistance from a lot of items and the high level ability hardiness. There's lots of equipment that also gives resistance to fire, but it's easier to just cast have a mage or cleric cast protection from fire to give 100% immunity for two hours. I'm pretty sure chaos shield doesn't stack. Spamming horrid wilting and the HLA spell that isn't fire based (sorry, forget the name) works ok. Edit: verybad posted:That's amazing. I've literally never thought about this before, and I've been playing these games for 10 years. and that's why I'm still playing 15 years later... Fruits of the sea fucked around with this message at 14:03 on Dec 19, 2013 |
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Dec 19, 2013 14:01
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Wouldn't that work on the various Dragons too? I imagine they must be well above 18/50 Str.
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