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Kai Tave posted:As someone who's currently working his way through this show after being convinced by TVIV at large to give it a shot, I have to say these two things right here are the biggest issues I have with it so far (I just finished episode 16, next up is...another Huntress episode, oh boy). Thea's constant drama is pretty annoying and it's hard to sympathize with someone who keeps trying to guilt-trip a guy who spent five years on Hell Island by complaining about how hard she had it when her dad died. I mean that sucks losing a parent and a brother, but it happens all the time to plenty of people who don't have millions of dollars, all the conveniences of the First World upper class, and friends to lean on, so when she's getting tearfully angry about how her life was hell too it's like, can we have less of this and more shooting arrows at people? Likewise I get the feeling the show wants me to have sympathy for Moira but she really just comes across as relentlessly passive-aggressive, self-centered, and insincere. I think your assessments of both Thea and Moira are both right on with the exception that I'm not so sure the show wants us to sympathize with Moira exactly, but it does want us to see her through Ollie's eyes at least part of the time. I have to remember that we know more about her (and her epic rap sheet of villainy) than any other character she has scenes with at any point, including Malcolm. I don't see it as a flaw in the show at all, as long as the writers don't get so distracted by those big blue eyes (or lip mole) they forget she is irredeemably evil. Moira could be a character on Scandal. In general whoever said that marathon watching S1 irons out the unevenness was right. Also there are a lot of fun details to pick up along the way if you're rewatching (or more observant than I was the first time through). Slade's stunned/impressed face when Shado shows up and instead of needing a rescue starts kicking the crap out of people is pretty great.
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Dec 18, 2013 20:06
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The season 1 Thea stuff was tough on a week to week basis when we didn't know what was coming, mainly because the character wasn't consistent. One min she's super chill and the next min her insecurities and problems bubbled over so I don't think Thea is handled as well in the fist dozen episodes. They hosed up her arc. When you binge watch season 1 it's far easier to get a handle on what they were shooting to do with her even if it was mistimed or misfiring. The other thing is that she's so likable so when she goes into whinny self-pity mode its perplexing because one min she's giving everyone great advice and the next she's OH WOE IS ME the eye rolling starts. They fixed that in the second half of the season and it's been for the better. The Huntress stuff is a low-point in the series but it's also a watermark as well. Its the moment when you really question how much credit and patience you want to give this show and the show drat near LISTENS to the audience's internalized dread. If you hadn't watched it in real time and been ignorant of how quick the episodes rolled out one could swear they stopped production for an extra 3 weeks and retooled scripts because everything goes up a notch and the show starts working harder to reward your loyalty, especially with 'The Odyssey' episode.
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Dec 18, 2013 21:19
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Whizbang posted:Hopefully Slade kills her off for dramatic tension and also so she can't poo poo up the show again. ...along with Laurel.
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Dec 18, 2013 21:32
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Humbug Scoolbus posted:...along with Laurel. Huntress kills off Laurel for reasons, Oliver puts
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Dec 18, 2013 22:05
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Warmachine posted:Huntress kills off Laurel for reasons, Oliver puts
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Dec 18, 2013 23:08
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That reminds me of the episode where the guys master plan to beat the vigilante was to simply have enough meatshields / bodyguards so that Oliver would run out shooting them. That guy was a goddamn genius.
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Dec 18, 2013 23:32
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Warmachine posted:Oliver puts Honestly, the next time she show's up better go something like this...  "Hi Oliver, miss me?" THWIP, THWIP, THWIPTHWIPTHWIP!!! Thump.
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Dec 18, 2013 23:50
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Huntress is a terrible character (and the show has 2 of her) so I hope she never comes back. And also Sara dies.
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Dec 19, 2013 00:16
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CAPTAIN CAPSLOCK posted:That reminds me of the episode where the guys master plan to beat the vigilante was to simply have enough meatshields / bodyguards so that Oliver would run out shooting them. That guy was a goddamn genius. Wasn't that Huntress's dad? 
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Dec 19, 2013 00:20
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DFu4ever posted:Honestly, the next time she show's up better go something like this... Does he say guess not at the end? I find the hate on Laurel in this thread a little creepy, asking to Ollie to kill her every other page.
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Dec 19, 2013 01:39
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Mooseontheloose posted:Does he say guess not at the end? Eh, there's no overarching misogynistic hatred about her, I don't think, it's more of a general dislike of where her character's developing (not much). Saying 'I hope <character> dies!' is akin to simply saying I hope they get written out of the show (or rewritten/fixed), at least in most of these contexts. The Arrow show is about violence, so hoping someone dies (BARROWMAN  ) is probably a lot more relevant in-show than hoping someone moves away or something (unless you're Barry [come back, Barry]).Mostly, it's people just not expressing themselves all that eloquently, I imagine. Drifter fucked around with this message at 01:53 on Dec 19, 2013 |
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Dec 19, 2013 01:50
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Laurel seems perfectly inoffensive thus far, though the fact that she's the focal point of a love triangle is one of those "accept it because the writers say so" things to me. Like, she's not bad by any stretch especially compared to someone like Helena, but I'm also not really finding her adding that much to the show. I guess I wouldn't mind if she moved to Coast City too along with Ollie's last girlfriend?
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Dec 19, 2013 01:51
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Aphrodite posted:And also Sara dies. Aphroditeman!
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Dec 19, 2013 01:56
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Kai Tave posted:Laurel seems perfectly inoffensive thus far, though the fact that she's the focal point of a love triangle is one of those "accept it because the writers say so" things to me. Like, she's not bad by any stretch especially compared to someone like Helena, but I'm also not really finding her adding that much to the show. I guess I wouldn't mind if she moved to Coast City too along with Ollie's last girlfriend? This is basically the problem. She adds nothing to the show that can't be provided better by other characters (in my opinion because her low-income law firm got wrecked in the quake). Sara and Felicity provide all the love triangle you need. Throw Isobella Rochev in there for a dark twist (At least until Oliver looks at his book again. Rewatched the pilot and her name is right next to Adam Hunt, his first takedown ). Bonus points that it brings all of the romantic interests up to the level Oliver is playing on, since all three act as heroes, hero support, or potential supervillains/current power players. Her other angle, the law enforcement, is better served by her dad, because the characters primarily interact with the police at street level, rather than in courtrooms. Quentin is shown working with Oliver all the time now, and is his primary link to the police now.And if they want to replace Sara's Canary with Laurel, they need to go through the gymnastics of giving her motive and training. Considering Sara and Oliver have had five years before the show started to become badass superheroes, convincing me that Laurel goes from the basics of self defense to League of Assassins in less time will probably break my suspension of disbelief. Roy is getting juiced up on Mirakuru, so he'll be able to skip some steps and become a super-strength brawler, but last I checked it didn't give hand-to-hand skills. Basically, Laurel is dead weight, and while the writers are giving her less and less prevalence, the looming cloud of her being a lead role later on has a lot of people (myself included) apprehensive, and desiring something 'final' to happen to her so that we can start breathing again. She needs to get Tommy'd.  Aphrodite posted:And also Sara dies. Cutting it awful close for Worst Poster 2013, aren't you? 
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Dec 19, 2013 02:36
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Warmachine posted:Cutting it awful close for Worst Poster 2013, aren't you? Sarah dies Dexter season 8 was an artistic triumph Breaking Bad was overrated Kurt Sutter is a goddamned GENIUS Irish Joe is a prophet [I just want to win something - sorry]
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Dec 19, 2013 03:38
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I think the biggest problem with Laurel is that all of the story beats with her are very passive/reactive, in a things happen TO her sense. Thea was kind of like that in the first season but then they made her more assertive and gave her something to do outside of just living in the mansion and getting drunk/high. (Also apparently she graduated high school sometime?) Laurel almost had her own story early in this season when she was gung-ho to catch the vigilante but then they kind of dropped that and now she's just unsuspectingly dating the villain.
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Dec 19, 2013 03:46
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muscles like this? posted:I think the biggest problem with Laurel is that all of the story beats with her are very passive/reactive, in a things happen TO her sense. Thea was kind of like that in the first season but then they made her more assertive and gave her something to do outside of just living in the mansion and getting drunk/high. (Also apparently she graduated high school sometime?) I like this post. Pretty much everyone else on the show is in the midst of some arc and you can see pretty clearly where they came from to where they are now. Laurel is just kind of muddied. She's not longer a good samaritan lawyer, but a DA without any sort of mission or goal. Maybe just send her back to being a pro-bono lawyer, trying to do good things, being forced to rely on herself and grow and change. It's pretty basic narrative stuff, give her a challenge or obstacle to her goals, but those goals and such are super unclear right now. Having her hit bottom earlier was kind of meaningless without some sort of reference point, and right now like you said shes just sort of clinging on to other plot lines.
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Dec 19, 2013 05:39
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Warmachine posted:Basically, Laurel is dead weight, and while the writers are giving her less and less prevalence, the looming cloud of her being a lead role later on has a lot of people (myself included) apprehensive, and desiring something 'final' to happen to her so that we can start breathing again. She needs to get Tommy'd. Yeah. I think most people in the thread have heard what the producers have been saying in interviews and see it as a choice between Sara and Laurel - if Laurel becomes Black Canary, then Sara's probably not hanging around, most likely because she died (though face/heel turn or getting put on a bus seem possible. If it's an either/or between those two, it's not a contest.
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Dec 19, 2013 07:03
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Laural wouldn't be so bad if the bits about her being a lawyer weren't always so terrible. I don't expect the writers to know every fine detail about law, but I do expect them to know easy stuff like what the hell a conflict of interest is.
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Dec 19, 2013 07:34
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They need to stop attaching her to other people's poo poo randomly, just give her something else to do. We know who she is and her back story at this point. Look at Thea, out of nowhere HEY you're the club manager now trying to keep your inspirational vigilante boyfriend in line. Suddenly shes involved with everything else. Bonus points, she's actually a Merlyn! Everyone HATED Thea last year, and now we care a lot about her because they just gave her stuff to do besides be self destructive (which is most of what Laurel has done this year).
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Dec 19, 2013 08:17
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Kung Food posted:Laural wouldn't be so bad if the bits about her being a lawyer weren't always so terrible. I don't expect the writers to know every fine detail about law, but I do expect them to know easy stuff like what the hell a conflict of interest is. I've been significantly bothered by this as well. Not just the conflict part but really anything relating to her job. Just about all tv shows involving law get things wrong but Laurel is awful. Pretty much everything at the place she worked in the glades was so wrong. Her being there during the quake to secure irreplaceable evidence is idiotic because she would almost certainly have digital copies of all of that evidence unless she's the most incompetent lawyer ever (hint: she is). Them bringing her in at Moira's trial was even worse. It's especially disappointing because the rest of the writing is so good but when it comes to Laurel and the law it's like the writers give zero fucks. Currently, Laurel is just a lovely character whose only use is to move the plot when there is no other logical way of doing it. Saltpowered fucked around with this message at 09:22 on Dec 19, 2013 |
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Dec 19, 2013 09:19
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Man, you guys are really selling me on this poo poo Well whatever, this is still way better than SHIELD. I've got four episodes left in season one and then it's on to catching up with S2.
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Dec 19, 2013 10:02
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Laurel feels kind of like a leftover from the earlier stage of the show, when it was closer to a daytime soap opera than it is now. She was primarily there for the love triangle between Tommy and Ollie, but the show hardly focuses on that relationship anymore, having a much bigger focus on the actual super heroics than on Ollie's general private life. She is the only character who has no connection to that world and I think that is where a lot of hatred for her comes from. Any time spent with her is basically time not spent on the much more interesting aspects on the show. Diggle, Felicity and Ollie trying to figure out how to take down a bad guy, that is interesting. Ollie and Sara kick as together, that is interesting. Thea, Sin and Roy dealing with the seedy underbelly of Star City, that is interesting. Moira being a reluctant super villain is interesting. Laurel however is not connected to any of these stories. They had her sudden hatred of the Vigilant, but that didn't help, because her reasons really didn't justify it, so it inspired more hate than interest from the fans. And now that that story line is resolved, she is really the only major character left out of that net of stories.
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Dec 19, 2013 13:43
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I have to admit, as far as superpowered doomsday devices designed to gently caress the lower class over, an earthquake generator is a heck of a lot better than Batman Begins' plan to spray  everywhere and just let things sort themselves out.
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Dec 19, 2013 14:28
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Kai Tave posted:I have to admit, as far as superpowered doomsday devices designed to gently caress the lower class over, an earthquake generator is a heck of a lot better than Batman Begins' plan to spray I love that this whole plotline is basically what would've happened if Ra's had told Bruce his evil plan and Bruce had been all Yo, I am totally down with that, man, gently caress Gotham.
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Dec 19, 2013 14:38
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hi liter posted:Everyone HATED Thea last year, and now we care a lot about her because they just gave her stuff to do besides be self destructive (which is most of what Laurel has done this year). They also silently aged her up about 5 years. Remember how at the start of the show she was still in high school? And now she runs a nightclub with no hint at all of any time on education, so it looks like they've decided she's now early 20s and just out of college. The extra dose of maturity has gone a long way to making her more likeable, I think.
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Dec 19, 2013 14:45
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Rarity posted:They also silently aged her up about 5 years. Remember how at the start of the show she was still in high school? And now she runs a nightclub with no hint at all of any time on education, so it looks like they've decided she's now early 20s and just out of college. The extra dose of maturity has gone a long way to making her more likeable, I think. I think she mentioned running a nightclub but not being old enough to drink earlier this season, didn't she?
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Dec 19, 2013 14:49
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Aphrodite posted:I think she mentioned running a nightclub but not being old enough to drink earlier this season, didn't she? Well she had her 18th birthday in S1, so there's that too...
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Dec 19, 2013 14:54
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Thea's graduated high school while Ollie was having his island vacation earlier this year. She's rich as balls and apparently a successful business owner already, so she doesn't really need to go to college.
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Dec 19, 2013 15:05
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Also that's Ollie's club, remember.
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Dec 19, 2013 15:35
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Spergatory posted:She's rich as balls, so she doesn't really need to go to college. This is pretty much it in a nutshell. She's rich so running the club is just something for her and for Ollie to do.
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Dec 19, 2013 16:01
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The nightclub is another aspect they pretty much phased out of the show. Seriously, with all the furore they made about it in season 1 you would think they would actually use it a lot more.
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Dec 19, 2013 16:10
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It's just the cover for the cave. Its purpose passed.
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Dec 19, 2013 16:11
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Eh, season one did have quite a lot of scenes there.
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Dec 19, 2013 16:19
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I figure the nightclub is there to provide the showrunners an excuse to intercut scenes with thumping dance beats and footage of attractive extras in clubwear. I mean, this is a CW show at the end of the day.
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Dec 19, 2013 16:24
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Kai Tave posted:I figure the nightclub is there to provide the showrunners an excuse to intercut scenes with thumping dance beats and footage of attractive extras in clubwear. I mean, this is a CW show at the end of the day. I am shocked that they do not have live bands there like they had on Buffy and other WB shows.
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Dec 19, 2013 16:25
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e X posted:Eh, season one did have quite a lot of scenes there. When you build a large set you have to justify it's existence in the plot. bobkatt013 posted:I am shocked that they do not have live bands there like they had on Buffy and other WB shows. A huge part of Buffy was contemporary pop music. There's barely a spec of that in Arrow, it wouldn't really fit. Add to the fact that most conpop is dreadful, the producers are smart to avoid it. Rhyno fucked around with this message at 16:33 on Dec 19, 2013 |
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Dec 19, 2013 16:25
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Mooseontheloose posted:I find the hate on Laurel in this thread a little creepy, asking to Ollie to kill her every other page. The problem is a bit unique in that, in theory, a better and more likable character has to die to make room for Laurel's plot to advance later on. So people are mostly hoping they realize Laurel is kind of terrible and just kill her off. Or send her away. Basically, just make her disappear.
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Dec 19, 2013 16:33
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e X posted:The nightclub is another aspect they pretty much phased out of the show. Seriously, with all the furore they made about it in season 1 you would think they would actually use it a lot more. They've shown it in a fair number of scenes this season but most of them have been during the day. Probably a lot cheaper than filling it with extras.
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Dec 19, 2013 16:35
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Don't worry, they can have Roy train there during the day. Set cost justified
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Dec 19, 2013 17:01
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