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House is the single best case I can think of for shorter TV seasons, because when it was on, it was really, really on, but it's hard to sustain that for 23 episodes a season.
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Dec 23, 2013 20:48
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Yoshifan823 posted:House is the single best case I can think of for shorter TV seasons, because when it was on, it was really, really on, but it's hard to sustain that for 23 episodes a season. Better than, oh, the entire BBC? Or Breaking Bad? Or Mad Men?
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Dec 23, 2013 21:44
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The best episodes of House are far better than the worst episodes of Mad Men.
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Dec 23, 2013 21:47
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BrooklynBruiser posted:Better than, oh, the entire BBC? Or Breaking Bad? Or Mad Men? BBC poo poo is too short, IMO. It makes sense with Sherlock, because they're basically just making 3 feature length movies, but 6 episodes has always felt too short for me (especially in comedy, where the shows are half as long). As for the others, it's easy to point to those shows and say "yes, this is the perfect length" because they're so good, but they don't illustrate the flaws that longer shows tend to have because of their length. House is the perfect example because you have an entire season's worth of character growth spread out over 22-24 episodes, when it could have easily fit in many less. Basically, when someone watches BB/MM, very few people think "boy this is just the perfect length for a season of television", because there are a billion other things they're thinking, but if you watch House, odds are one of your first thoughts after finishing a season will be "that was really good, but did it need to be that drat long?" Edit: House is probably the best (longer than one season-running, because of Freaks and Geeks) network drama of the past 15 or so years, but I don't think it compares to the best Cable has had to offer, fwiw. Yoshifan823 fucked around with this message at 21:57 on Dec 23, 2013 |
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Dec 23, 2013 21:53
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10 episodes is a pretty good size but going up to 12 or 14 wouldn't necessarily be a bad thing (if the creative talent behind it can support those extra stories). However, anything approaching 20 episodes will start to seriously suffer. And it's not necessarily the show/showrunner's/network's fault. You don't want your major episodes/developments/story arcs/conclusions to happen outside a few choice times (season premiers, sweeps, seasonal breaks, season finales). If you've got another half season of stories to tell outside those times, it's just hard to keep writing compelling narratives.
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Dec 23, 2013 22:01
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I think comparing the BBC/Netflix version of House of Cards really gave me an appreciation of the short episode format- the BBC version just flies compared to the Netflix one.
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Dec 23, 2013 22:31
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Cactus posted:I dunno, I'd say implying there are "right" and "wrong" ways to enjoy watching TV is a slightly less correct thing to do. Not saying it's "wrong" in the full sense of the word but it's sort like skipping pages in a book. Ideally, every episode adds something to the overarching plot or to characterization or both. Even if the episodes are 99% self-contained, like in a police procedural, there should still be something new there that will add flavor.
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Dec 24, 2013 00:06
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STAC Goat posted:I think there's always been a "oh, House, every episode is the same and it peaked in Season 1" current. Its easy enough to regard that group as "non-fans". I think the "it was good until Season 5 or 6 but boy were Episodes X and Y great" people are fans who lost some of their excitement for the show as its quality went down (by a pretty general consensus). Nobody cares if you've seen a thing or not. Not seeing a thing, or seeing a thing, is not boast-worthy.
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Dec 24, 2013 00:24
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Kraps posted:Not saying it's "wrong" in the full sense of the word but it's sort like skipping pages in a book. I'm pretty sure you can skip Sherlock Holmes stories without missing anything or negatively impacting your enjoyment of subsequent stories.
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Dec 24, 2013 00:31
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Irish Joe posted:I'm pretty sure you can skip Sherlock Holmes stories without missing anything or negatively impacting your enjoyment of subsequent stories. Sometimes I'm afraid people won't understand my analogies but you've nailed it so good work.
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Dec 24, 2013 01:05
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Yoshifan823 posted:BBC poo poo is too short, IMO. It makes sense with Sherlock, because they're basically just making 3 feature length movies, but 6 episodes has always felt too short for me (especially in comedy, where the shows are half as long). Yeah, sitcoms don't seem to suffer as much as most hour-longs when it comes to 22-24 episode seasons (probably in part because it's half the runtime), to where I never really catch myself thinking, "Boy, New Girl is great but it'd be even greater if the season was cut in half." Meanwhile, it seems like with hour-longs/dramas we're drifting toward half-season orders (12-13 episodes) instead of the full 22-24. The one clear example I can think of where a full 22-order really hosed with the flow of the season is Lost Girl S2, where they had a 13-episode order and then got renewed for another 9 episodes mid-season. It's real obvious that they started basically treading water that season just to fill out their order, and S3/S4 ended up as half-season size orders.
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Dec 24, 2013 01:07
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Yoshifan823 posted:Edit: House is probably the best (longer than one season-running, because of Freaks and Geeks) network drama of the past 15 or so years I doubt even some of the bigger House fans would say something like that. And I say that as someone that enjoyed the show. I mean, it's probably not even in the top ten of broadcast dramas of the last 15 years.
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Dec 24, 2013 01:14
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Kraps posted:Not saying it's "wrong" in the full sense of the word but it's sort like skipping pages in a book. Ideally, every episode adds something to the overarching plot or to characterization or both. Even if the episodes are 99% self-contained, like in a police procedural, there should still be something new there that will add flavor. I agree with you, but if someone only wants to watch what some random dude on the internet says are the "good" episodes of PoI, that's up to them and it isn't really the business of anyone else to pass judgement. I don't think they'd get as much out of the story if they do, but I'm not them, and for all I know "getting as much out of the story" might not be their primary reason for wanting to put it on, or they might get exactly what they want out of it even though it's different to what I'd want from it. Also, House? 
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Dec 24, 2013 01:29
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You shouldn't skip episodes because it's healthy to develop your own opinions on things, and also because people tend to throw out "literally unwatchable" way too often
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Dec 24, 2013 01:47
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Deadpool posted:I doubt even some of the bigger House fans would say something like that. And I say that as someone that enjoyed the show. I mean, it's probably not even in the top ten of broadcast dramas of the last 15 years. Fo sho. That timeframe puts House against some very popular, critically acclaimed dramas... Friday Night Lights, The West Wing, Law and Order(s), ER, Homicide, LOST, Northern Exposure, NYPD Blue, Greys Anatomy, Twin Peeks.... not to mention a lot of arguable but less popular shows, and current shows that could make the list. It might barely claw its way to the bottom of some Top Ten-Last 15 years-Network Drama list, but the takeaway lesson from that isn't about House being a great show... it's that network television sure does suck.
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Dec 24, 2013 02:01
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Those are all good (or at least decent shows) in that list above, but I'd only go as far as to call two of them great (Friday Night Lights and Homicide). Twin Peaks comes close but it falls apart in spots that really just smothers the notion. My great list for the same time-frame would be hugely disproportionate towards cable (premium especially). Part of me considers "golden age of television" some dumb av club bullshit, but damned if my opinions don't line up with the notion. EvilTobaccoExec fucked around with this message at 02:09 on Dec 24, 2013 |
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Dec 24, 2013 02:07
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Fag Boy Jim posted:You shouldn't skip episodes because it's healthy to develop your own opinions on things, and also because people tend to throw out "literally unwatchable" way too often The problem is that when you have a show with a rocky first season, like PoI, the opinion is formed on the worst the show has to offer. Heck, even shows that start off good might not click with people for one reason or another. It took me five years to "get" Its Always Sunny in Philadelphia and now I love that stupid show. Doctor Who, meanwhile, is a show that underwent a significant shift in style and tone five seasons in. As much as I like Doctor Who now, I still can't go back and watch Tennant's episodes because they're so terrible. When someone writes a list of essential episodes, the message is not 'only watch these episodes,' but 'start with these episodes and revisit the rest of the series at your leisure.' Edit FWIW, here's a list of shows I mentioned in my post and the episodes that hooked me: Doctor Who Caught my attention: Day of the Astronaut Hooked me: The Eleventh Hour Person of Interest Caught my attention/hooked me: Relevance Its Always Sunny in Philadelphia Caught my attention: The Gang Goes to the Jersey Shore Hooked me: The Storm of the Century Lost Caught my attention/hooked me: Greatest Hits Notice how each episode is fairly deep into the series' run. Irish Joe fucked around with this message at 02:22 on Dec 24, 2013 |
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Dec 24, 2013 02:08
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EvilTobaccoExec posted:Fo sho. That timeframe puts House against some very popular, critically acclaimed dramas... Friday Night Lights, The West Wing, Law and Order(s), ER, Homicide, LOST, Northern Exposure, NYPD Blue, Greys Anatomy, Twin Peeks.... not to mention a lot of arguable but less popular shows, and current shows that could make the list. EvilTobaccoExec posted:Those are all good (or at least decent shows) in that list above, but I'd only go as far as to call two of them great (Friday Night Lights and Homicide). Twin Peaks comes close but it falls apart in spots that really just smothers the notion.   What the hell? Did you just respond to yourself?
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Dec 24, 2013 02:13
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I thought someone else posted that.
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Dec 24, 2013 02:17
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Yeah me too.
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Dec 24, 2013 02:17
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Irish Joe posted:The problem is that when you have a show with a rocky first season, like PoI, the opinion is formed on the worst the show has to offer. Heck, even shows that start off good might not click with people for one reason or another. It took me five years to "get" Its Always Sunny in Philadelphia and now I love that stupid show. Doctor Who is a show that underwent a significant shift in style and tone five seasons in. Even as a fan of the show now, I still can't go back and watch Tennant's episodes. But if you're talking about PoI, every episode of that show develops the characters and adds crucial backstory that influences your understanding of the situation at hand. Skip a few here and there, even with the intention to revisit them later, and the flow of the series starts to get janky; the characters don't form right in the viewer's head. Even episode 2, which suffers from a severe case of Second Product Syndrome (filmed during that period of adjustment where the producers realize "Oh gently caress we have to do this every week"), drops some crucial information about Harold Finch and the life he had before he took on the Irrelevant list. And quite frankly, while those first 13 episodes are rocky, it evens out sooner rather than later for most people. You really might as well ride it out and watch it develop as it was intended. Now if you were talking about Supernatural, I'd actually agree with you. That's a show where you can hold a few episodes back and not feel like you missed much, if anything.
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Dec 24, 2013 02:23
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DivisionPost posted:Even episode 2, which suffers from a severe case of Second Product Syndrome (filmed during that period of adjustment where the producers realize "Oh gently caress we have to do this every week"), drops some crucial information about Harold Finch and the life he had before he took on the Irrelevant list. The problem with PoI's flashbacks (at least in the first season) is that they're redundant. No single flashback is essential because the point will be reiterated in a dozen flashbacks over the rest of the season. The only flashbacks that matter are the ones with the "reveal," in which you learn what happened to change the status quo and make Finch the man he is in the present day. They're a lot like Lost's flashbacks in that you only need to see one of them to understand the character. For example, you only need to see one Locke flashback to understand he's a loving loser, one Kate flashback to know she's unreliable and one Jack flashback to know he has daddy issues. Irish Joe fucked around with this message at 02:48 on Dec 24, 2013 |
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Dec 24, 2013 02:45
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Irish Joe posted:The problem with PoI's flashbacks (at least in the first season) I don't quite agree that they're all as redundant as you say, but they definitely get more meaningful in the second and third seasons. It's kind of hard to talk about without giving specific examples and spoiling stuff, but in general they start exploring deeper things than just basic character background info and one-tone characters notes. I think Finch's flashbacks especially get a lot deeper without being super heavy-handed about his past or his motivations. You get to see glimpses of the process behind him making the machine, and piece by piece get a clearer picture of why he became what he is and why he goes about things the way he does.
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Dec 24, 2013 02:54
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EvilTobaccoExec posted:Fo sho. That timeframe puts House against some very popular, critically acclaimed dramas... Friday Night Lights, The West Wing, Law and Order(s), ER, Homicide, LOST, Northern Exposure, NYPD Blue, Greys Anatomy, Twin Peeks.... not to mention a lot of arguable but less popular shows, and current shows that could make the list. I'd put House up against any of those shows (Twin Peaks and Northern Exposure don't count because they were early nineties, which is most certainly not 15 years ago). West Wing, FNL, Law and Order, NYPD and maaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaybe Lost would also have cases to be made for them (my dumb rear end forgot about Law and Order, which actually would be any smart person's argument for the Network TV model, because you could run that poo poo 52 weeks a year and not lose a whole lot, if anything). Basically we need to let cable take the serialized shows and bring network TV back to the 50's and get stuff like Hitchcock Presents and Twilight Zone running again.
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Dec 24, 2013 02:56
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Irish Joe posted:No single flashback is essential because the point will be reiterated in a dozen flashbacks over the rest of the season. I liked this as it was equivalent to how a person runs something through their mind over and over, searching for meaning or hoping to remember it a little differently the next time.
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Dec 24, 2013 03:04
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Yoshifan823 posted:I'd put House up against any of those shows (Twin Peaks and Northern Exposure don't count because they were early nineties, which is most certainly not 15 years ago). West Wing, FNL, Law and Order, NYPD and maaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaybe Lost would also have cases to be made for them (my dumb rear end forgot about Law and Order, which actually would be any smart person's argument for the Network TV model, because you could run that poo poo 52 weeks a year and not lose a whole lot, if anything). Not that I don't dig a lot of Law and Order, even (especially?) the craziest SVU episodes, but the model supports solid ratings over different/challenging content. Its in the networks interest, it just doesn't align with my own very much. We're definitely on the same page about Twilight Zone and Hitchcock Presents though. Another great anthology series is long overdue.
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Dec 24, 2013 03:15
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Irish Joe posted:The problem with PoI's flashbacks (at least in the first season) is that they're redundant. No single flashback is essential because the point will be reiterated in a dozen flashbacks over the rest of the season. The only flashbacks that matter are the ones with the "reveal," in which you learn what happened to change the status quo and make Finch the man he is in the present day. They're a lot like Lost's flashbacks in that you only need to see one of them to understand the character. For example, you only need to see one Locke flashback to understand he's a loving loser, one Kate flashback to know she's unreliable and one Jack flashback to know he has daddy issues.  <grabs a shovel>But now we're extolling plot over character in a show that tends to put character over plot, and develops its characters extremely well, even within those rough first hours. (They get away with de-emphasizing plot intrigue because the show runs a 3-5 ring circus in terms of plot; they can pull focus away from one thread because there's always another thread to look at.) With the the extra time spent on the characters, even just to reinforce what you may already know, the big reveals are that much more satisfying when they come. If you just want to leap from cumshot to cumshot, the list works fine, but they're not going to land with the same impact.
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Dec 24, 2013 03:16
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EvilTobaccoExec posted:Fo sho. That timeframe puts House against some very popular, critically acclaimed dramas... Friday Night Lights, The West Wing, Law and Order(s), ER, Homicide, LOST, Northern Exposure, NYPD Blue, Greys Anatomy, Twin Peeks.... not to mention a lot of arguable but less popular shows, and current shows that could make the list. Nobody ever mentions The Good Wife 
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Dec 24, 2013 03:23
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When making that mental-list I tried to avoid ongoing shows for simplicity's sake. Instead I opted for shows from... nearly 20 years ago. The gently caress kind of timeline was I working from?
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Dec 24, 2013 03:29
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I'm just thankful The Good Wife didn't end up joining Terriers and Cougar Town on the "shows that might not have been cancelled if they didn't have awful titles" pile.
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Dec 24, 2013 03:30
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Yoshifan823 posted:I'd put House up against any of those shows (Twin Peaks and Northern Exposure don't count because they were early nineties, which is most certainly not 15 years ago). West Wing, FNL, Law and Order, NYPD and maaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaybe Lost would also have cases to be made for them (my dumb rear end forgot about Law and Order, which actually would be any smart person's argument for the Network TV model, because you could run that poo poo 52 weeks a year and not lose a whole lot, if anything). ER definitely slipped after the 8th season (2001-2002) but until that point it was most definitely one of the best shows on TV.
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Dec 24, 2013 03:36
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Fag Boy Jim posted:I'm just thankful The Good Wife didn't end up joining Terriers and Cougar Town on the "shows that might not have been cancelled if they didn't have awful titles" pile. Cougar Town, amazingly, starts it's fifth season next month. Hands up, who remembered that show was still around besides me? None of you, because you all hate fun.
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Dec 24, 2013 04:21
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Epi Lepi posted:ER definitely slipped after the 8th season (2001-2002) but until that point it was most definitely one of the best shows on TV. Is the 8th season before or after the Romano/helicopter romance(s)?
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Dec 24, 2013 04:23
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Yoshifan823 posted:Cougar Town, amazingly, starts it's fifth season next month. I recently spent way too long convincing a friend that it was still on, and I think she still suspects I'm just loving with her.
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Dec 24, 2013 04:30
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Yoshifan823 posted:Cougar Town, amazingly, starts it's fifth season next month. I actually like Cougar Town and I thought it was cancelled 
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Dec 24, 2013 04:32
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I like Cougar Town but I don't love it. And I can't figure why.
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Dec 24, 2013 04:45
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Chamberk posted:I like Cougar Town but I don't love it.
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Dec 24, 2013 04:54
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Mu Zeta posted:Is the 8th season before or after the Romano/helicopter romance(s)? If I remember right his first helicopter encounter was in the Season 9 premiere.
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Dec 24, 2013 05:06
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Epi Lepi posted:If I remember right his first helicopter encounter was in the Season 9 premiere. That's right, and he lasted a whole season and a half before his next encounter with the helicopter. It was still a good show after then and until it ended but in its prime ER was excellent television. Definitely the best TV medical drama ever.
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Dec 24, 2013 05:13
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Wandle Cax posted:That's right, and he lasted a whole season and a half before his next encounter with the helicopter. It was still a good show after then and until it ended but in its prime ER was excellent television. Definitely the best TV medical drama ever. Okay, someone is going to have to explain to me what this is about (I didn't watch ER). Right now it sounds like some guy had a few flings with a sentient helicopter, Jay Jay the Jet Plane-style.
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Dec 24, 2013 06:04
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