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If blocking the radiant heat doesn't work then the best thing to do is grab a multimeter and measure the amperage. If the reading is over 12 amps(which is the most your heater should be drawing) then your heater is broken and needs to be thrown out. Otherwise you've got bigger issues and you should call in an electrician that can actually get hands on.angryrobots posted:No, like one or more of the other receptacles should also be getting warm if this issue is because of load, depending on which direction the circuit was run around the room. Edit: I didn't see the green circles on the drawing at first. Ultimate Shrek Fan fucked around with this message at 00:32 on Dec 24, 2013 |
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Dec 24, 2013 00:20
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Motronic posted:Take the outlet out of the circuit and put it in through a tap. I'd prefer it if all outlets were done this way by default, also avoiding those spring-lock backwire holes and using the screws. It may be faster and more convenient, but I think it's a sloppy way of making a connection, and much more prone to fail.
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Dec 24, 2013 03:11
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Entangled posted:I'd prefer it if all outlets were done this way by default, also avoiding those spring-lock backwire holes and using the screws. It may be faster and more convenient, but I think it's a sloppy way of making a connection, and much more prone to fail. It's industry best practice to pigtail receptacles, but most residential installers are just goobs off the street doing it for minimum wage in the minimum time, and are incredibly lazy besides.
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Dec 24, 2013 15:41
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Thanks for the advice fellas. I'll give these tests a try after Christmas and see where that leads, then report back.
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Dec 24, 2013 17:33
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Hello all. Three Phase was kind enough to let me know of this threads existence. I am used to electrocuting myself as I modify various gaming consoles from the 1980s and 1990s, but electrocuting myself on pure, unfiltered 110V has not been as fun. I just moved into a new home in sunny South Burlington and there is a bit of an issue. Our floodlights do not work. They are the automatic kind, so when you walk past them, they turn on. Mine were refusing to turn on, so I changed the bulbs, and they still do not work. I have narrowed the issue down to inside the garage:  It...did not look like that when we bought the house. At least I do not remember it. The previous owner was so cheap, he took this 25 cent reflector off a tree (they are there so cars do not accidentally hit your house). Obviously this is a 3 gang outlet, and he must have taken something out (a switch or an outlet I assume)?  Anyway, that's neither here nor there, and I am trying to wire this thing up properly. I have a Solenoid voltmeter, but it isn't doing me much in terms of what is supposed to be where. I've isolated what breaker this switch runs off of, so I make sure to turn it off in the basement before working on it. Every single time I think I wire it up properly, I turn the breaker on, and it flicks itself right back off. So I am doing something wrong. I have purchased several new outlets and on/off switches, so if someone could give me a hint of which wire has to go where, it would be appreciated. Taking the garbage out while using a flashlight is for the birds.
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Dec 26, 2013 20:18
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I think your switch is causing your breaker to pop.. switches generally use 1 color of wire and interrupt it's flow.. usually the white. It looks like you are feeding it a hot and neutral so with the switch on you are creating a short and causing the breaker to flip.
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Dec 26, 2013 21:26
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tater_salad posted:I think your switch is causing your breaker to pop.. switches generally use 1 color of wire and interrupt it's flow.. usually the white. It looks like you are feeding it a hot and neutral so with the switch on you are creating a short and causing the breaker to flip. Do not put a switch on a white wire (unless it's been recoded as hot). You want to cut power to the hot wire, not the neutral.
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Dec 26, 2013 21:37
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Is it possible that the bare copper wire is hot? When I touch the black wire to the left of it (the black wire sticking straight out, not connected to anything else) my Solenoid voltmeter gives me a buzz so I know I am getting electricity. I would think a bare copper wire would have been ground, though. I also get the reading when I touch the bare copper to the switch.
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Dec 26, 2013 23:03
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Miyamotos RGB NES posted:Is it possible that the bare copper wire is hot? When I touch the black wire to the left of it (the black wire sticking straight out, not connected to anything else) my Solenoid voltmeter gives me a buzz so I know I am getting electricity. I would think a bare copper wire would have been ground, though. I also get the reading when I touch the bare copper to the switch. No, if it was hot you would die when you touched it. The wiring standard is green or bare copper is ground and should only carry current during a fault of some kind. White is the neutral that carries current back from the appliance and might give a tiny shock in some circumstances. Any other color (usually black) is hot and carries current directly from the power plant into your appliances and/or fingers.
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Dec 26, 2013 23:40
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Cat Hatter posted:Do not put a switch on a white wire (unless it's been recoded as hot). You want to cut power to the hot wire, not the neutral. I am thinking that both whites should be marked, and he doesn't have a neutral in the box at all. One three way and one drop from a fixture. And it's popping because he's wiring the three way wrong. Just guessing though.
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Dec 26, 2013 23:49
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Looks like both switches are wired up with switch loops. The big question is where they're going to. If you can find the other boxes in the circuit and how they're wired up, we may be able to make more sense of why it's not working right.
grover fucked around with this message at 00:21 on Dec 27, 2013 |
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Dec 27, 2013 00:18
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I am not sure where the outlet is wired to (the one with the white and red wire coming out of it, and a black wire going nowhere) but I am 90% sure the switch controls the floodlights. Even though it is motion sensored, I am guessing this is so you can have them as "always on" if you have a backyard gathering at night and don't want to wave your hands around like an idiot every 30 seconds so your friends can have light. I am thinking the two black wires that aren't connected to anything were at one time connected via a wirenut? That's my guess. If someone could tell me where I should wire what, I'll get right on it. I promise to kill the power before doing so. 
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Dec 27, 2013 00:27
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Miyamotos RGB NES posted:I am not sure where the outlet is wired to (the one with the white and red wire coming out of it, and a black wire going nowhere) but I am 90% sure the switch controls the floodlights. Even though it is motion sensored, I am guessing this is so you can have them as "always on" if you have a backyard gathering at night and don't want to wave your hands around like an idiot every 30 seconds so your friends can have light. Might be worth your while to open up the box the light is in and see how it's wired up. As well as any other outlets you think may be controlling lights in your garage.
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Dec 27, 2013 00:45
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Cat Hatter posted:Do not put a switch on a white wire (unless it's been recoded as hot). You want to cut power to the hot wire, not the neutral. Anyway, as to the box in question, this: Miyamotos RGB NES posted:
....is a bit less than we need to help you. How have you narrowed it down to this box? The only thing you've said in the post, is that there is a breaker that won't turn on, and you have this box which is questionable and has a loose wire. If the floodlights have never worked, how do you know they feed from this box? Just off the cuff, it LOOKS like someone has a 3-way switch on the left, and a single pole switch on the right. Whether either was or is wired up correctly, can't really be determined without knowing where they are going (especially where the switch on the left is going). The very first thing I'd do, is take everything loose (not the bare grounds) and see what is actually hot. If you're not familiar with residential wiring, and 3 way wiring in particular, this may turn into a headache. Haha, e;f; very beaten. Fussing infant, probably took me an hour to reply. angryrobots fucked around with this message at 00:51 on Dec 27, 2013 |
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Dec 27, 2013 00:47
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Miyamotos RGB NES posted:I am thinking the two black wires that aren't connected to anything were at one time connected via a wirenut? That's my guess. Black to black would generally make sense, and leave you with an outlet that has one spot always on, and the other switched (assuming sane wiring elsewhere). What really confuses me though is that you've apparently tried multiple configurations for the wiring (and it seems that black+black wasn't one of them?)... what the hell have you been trying?
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Dec 27, 2013 00:55
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Cat Hatter posted:Do not put a switch on a white wire (unless it's been recoded as hot). You want to cut power to the hot wire, not the neutral. I wrote black then second guessed myself and changed it for some reason
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Dec 27, 2013 03:10
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grover posted:Every motion sensor light I've seen has had a "secret handshake" of sorts where if you flip the light on/off/on in quick succession (or similar), it'll bypass the sensor and go on and stay on. Thunderstorms can sometimes trip them up and the light stays on. Thanks for this info, I wasn't aware of that feature. grover posted:Might be worth your while to open up the box the light is in and see how it's wired up. As well as any other outlets you think may be controlling lights in your garage. There's really no light in the garage except for the one that automatically turns on when the electrical garage door opens. There's another outlet on the other side of the garage, but there's no light attached to it. It's an outlet with an on/off switch that is useful for Christmas lights and that's about it. angryrobots posted:....is a bit less than we need to help you. How have you narrowed it down to this box? The only thing you've said in the post, is that there is a breaker that won't turn on, and you have this box which is questionable and has a loose wire. If the floodlights have never worked, how do you know they feed from this box? The breaker turns on fine if I do not wire the switch up and turn it on. I narrowed it down to that box because outside the garage, the flood light is right there. Like right above the outside of the photo. It's the only logical place it can be running to, coupled with the mess that is this gang box tells me it's what is powering the floodlights. angryrobots posted:Just off the cuff, it LOOKS like someone has a 3-way switch on the left The left is actually an outlet. On the right is the switch. angryrobots posted:The very first thing I'd do, is take everything loose (not the bare grounds) and see what is actually hot. The bare ground wire already is completely loose. It looks like it broke off into the switch on the right. Should I just remove everything (outlet on the left and switch on the right) and report back with what is giving me voltage? I will test this by touching one end of the Solenoid voltmeter to the bare copper wire, then individually to each wire I see (there's 5 total: two white, two black, and one red) and report back with which one shows voltage? Zhentar posted:What really confuses me though is that you've apparently tried multiple configurations for the wiring (and it seems that black+black wasn't one of them?)... what the hell have you been trying? I haven't tried many different configurations, just two or three that either resulted in no power to the floodlight or me tripping the breaker. Thanks again for any advice!
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Dec 27, 2013 15:26
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how do you know that there's no power to the floodlight? Did you pull it off and test the wires in the box? Or did you just assume because it doesn't turn on when you jump around in front of it? Automatic lights are not the most fun to deal with, there's a lot that can die on them to make them not work anymore so your best bet is to test the connections at the box before assuming it doesn't have power.. I have a floodlight on my garage that has power but the internal relay/switch is broken and it won't flick the lights on when it sees motion. tater_salad fucked around with this message at 16:37 on Dec 27, 2013 |
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Dec 27, 2013 16:35
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tater_salad posted:how do you know that there's no power to the floodlight? Honestly because the floodlights worked when we bought the house, and the photo I took did not look like that when we inspected the home (had a home inspector as well). Now the floodlights do not work (replaced the bulbs too) and the only difference is the mess you see there, which definitely did not look like that. I can't imagine the floodlights getting power anywhere but from that 3 gang box because there's really not many places near the back of the house that would make sense for it to get power from. This is the closest outlet, and actually is pretty much the only one within a reasonable distance. We can even ignore the floodlight issue and I'd still like to wire this thing up the way it should be.
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Dec 27, 2013 17:21
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angryrobots posted:Probably every single light switch in your house, is switched using the white and black conductors. In fact, if your home is over 15 years old or so, none of your 240v appliances (dryer, water heater, oven) will have a neutral, and the white and black are hot in the 2-conductor with ground,cable they ran. Never assume a white wire means neutral, especially not in a box with light switches. I didn't want to have to explain switch legs (of which there is only one in my house) on a cell phone but I thought someone should respond to the post about how a switch interrupts the white wire. Also I made mention of recoding for hot in my post.
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Dec 27, 2013 18:30
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Miyamotos RGB NES posted:Honestly because the floodlights worked when we bought the house, and the photo I took did not look like that when we inspected the home (had a home inspector as well). Now the floodlights do not work (replaced the bulbs too) and the only difference is the mess you see there, which definitely did not look like that. Ok, just so you're forevermore aware: "Makes sense" and "reasonable" have no application in residential wiring when homeowners have ever touched it after install (and frequently not even before). Second: There are more parts in this system besides "bulbs" and "this CLEARLY OBVIOUS switch." So: you have a duplex outlet on the left, and a single switch on the right. You've got three wires (plus a ground) in the cable on the left and two (plus a ground) on the right. Of the wires on the left, which are hot with respect to the white wire in that same cable? Which are hot with respect to the ground? Of the wires on the right, which are hot with respect to the white wire on the left? Which are hot with respect to the ground? Answer these questions, and we can probably help get this thing wired. My suspicion is this: Left cable: red is one circuit, black is another. Right cable: Black comes in hot from some light fixture SOMEWHERE, is switched, and returns on the white wire. This circuit may not be one of the two already present in the box. I have a further suspicion that the control module has failed. Final point: Electrocuted means killed by electricity. You were just shocked.
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Dec 27, 2013 18:54
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babyeatingpsychopath posted:Answer these questions, and we can probably help get this thing wired. Okay, I made this as simple as I could since I am such a dullard. Here is another pic head-on if it makes things easier to see:  Now here I have tagged everything with a number:  If it is not obvious in the picture, number 7 is the bare copper wire which we all assume is ground. One more angle just in case:  Touching each wire to number 7, this is what my Solenoid voltmeter tells me: 1 = a low reading 2 = high reading 3 = + and - continuity 4 = + and - continuity 5 = high reading 6 = high reading For the hell of it if I touch 2 and 5 together with my Solenoid voltmeter, I get + continuity. If I touch 2 and 1 together with my Solenoid voltmeter I also get + continuity. What I mean by "high" and "low" reading above, is my Solenoid voltmeter goes a bit more crazy where I said it was "high". The "low" reading was still vibrating the reader and all that, but it was not as drastically doing so as it was on 2, 5, and 6. You'll have to excuse my idiot-speak as my area of expertise is typically toilets.
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Dec 27, 2013 21:49
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Miyamotos RGB NES posted:
Hit up almost any store anywhere and get a cheap multimeter. Analog is OK. I've seen them at grocery stores for $10. Auto parts, hardware, big box, anywhere. The solenoid meter is just confusing things at this point. Make the following measurements on the 120VAC setting. 1-7. 2-7. 3-7. 1-2. 3-2. 5-2. 6-2. 5-7. 6-7. switch off, then switch on. Does stuff plugged into that outlet work right now? Can you determine whether or not that switch controls anything?
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Dec 28, 2013 00:58
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babyeatingpsychopath posted:My suspicion is this: Left cable: red is one circuit, black is another. Also, he said that one breaker killed whatever power he had in this box, if that is the case then the 2 circuit theory means that other circuit is open somewhere else. Agreeing fully with please please get a real voltmeter. It doesn't need to be a $100 true RMS meter...but a good one will last you forever and depending on what functions you shop for, can come in handy for all sorts of things. angryrobots fucked around with this message at 20:30 on Dec 28, 2013 |
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Dec 28, 2013 04:00
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angryrobots posted:Hm, maybe? But it looks like the tab on the hot side is still present, much as I can tell? Okay, I bought this exact device. What do I turn it to?  
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Dec 28, 2013 18:00
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Two clicks to the right from Off, 200 V~
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Dec 28, 2013 18:09
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Also plug the leads into V and COM. I still remember the amazing condition of the fuse in my one of these after that time I sent 120V through the ammeter with no load.
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Dec 28, 2013 18:12
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Okay so black lead on the 7 and red lead on the others, here is what I've got: 1= 136.3 2= 137.0 3= 0 4= 0 5= 137.4 6= 137.5
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Dec 29, 2013 17:09
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The wires are taken loose for readings, or still landed on the terminals? I'm hoping that the hot readings on both 5 and 6 are because they are still on the switch, and the switch is 'on'. It would be helpful to test between all the wires (2-3, etc) and let us know if any read hot that way. That will let us see if there is a neutral in that box or only switch legs. There is no other switch in another location that you don't know what it does? Also, your voltage is high. It read steadily like that, wasn't jumping around or anything right?
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Dec 29, 2013 19:25
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babyeatingpsychopath posted:
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Dec 29, 2013 20:34
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angryrobots posted:The wires are taken loose for readings, or still landed on the terminals? I'm hoping that the hot readings on both 5 and 6 are because they are still on the switch, and the switch is 'on'. Thanks, yeah it was pretty much steady. It would bounce between 140 and 143 a bit when I just tested it. For 5 and 6 I am touching the terminals on the switch. Okay, here's the other readings: 1 -> 2: 0 3 -> 2: 0 5 -> 2: 0 6 -> 2: 0 5 -> 7 (switch up): 149.4 6 -> 7 (switch up): 151.6 5 -> 7 (switch down): 112.1 6 -> 7 (switch down): 152.4 Thank you for assisting an idiot (me).
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Dec 30, 2013 22:14
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Miyamotos RGB NES posted:Thanks, yeah it was pretty much steady. It would bounce between 140 and 143 a bit when I just tested it. For 5 and 6 I am touching the terminals on the switch. Ok. Most or all of the circuits in that box are turned off, that switch is a mystery, and Something Strange is going on. I'm gonna recommend a professional show up and check it out.
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Dec 30, 2013 22:22
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The high voltages would indicate that the equipment ground isn't bonded with neutral correctly, right? Except then there's that one that reads "normal." Hmm.
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Dec 30, 2013 22:36
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Alright, checking back in with an update on the warm outlet conundrum: Did an air travel test as per recommendation late last week and saw no change, so I figured it was something in the outlet again. Opened it up for inspection today and was glad to see that there was zero signs of discoloration or charring. The one thing that I did notice was that all the screws needed a little tightening, about a quarter to half turn for each. I'm wondering if they must have backed off slightly since I installed the outlet last year, and if that was juuuuust enough to cause some minuscule arcing that resulted in a mild warmth. After putting everything back together, I've been running the fireplace/heater on high for about 25 minutes now, and the offending outlet is still room temperature. I'll be keeping an eye on it still, but it looks like everything is better after tightening the connections. One thing that I did notice when the breaker was off is that the living room actually shares some of its connections with the kitchen lights too; there is a LOT of stuff on that circuit. Running another dedicated circuit in this room might be a prudent idea after all.
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Dec 31, 2013 01:19
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babyeatingpsychopath posted:Ok. Most or all of the circuits in that box are turned off, that switch is a mystery, and Something Strange is going on. I'm gonna recommend a professional show up and check it out. Dalrain posted:The high voltages would indicate that the equipment ground isn't bonded with neutral correctly, right? Except then there's that one that reads "normal." Hmm. Well that sucks. For once in my life I was going to try and learn to do something myself instead of calling someone! Maybe some day....  (Seriously though thanks for trying to help anyway)
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Dec 31, 2013 13:02
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Next time you need to swap out a switch or something give that a shot. This particular box is a mystery full of blue smoke waiting to be released, possibly into your body which is a bad thing. You need a pro with the proper tools that can figure out the end points for where the wires are going etc.
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Dec 31, 2013 16:01
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tater_salad posted:Next time you need to swap out a switch or something give that a shot. This particular box is a mystery full of blue smoke waiting to be released, possibly into your body which is a bad thing. You need a pro with the proper tools that can figure out the end points for where the wires are going etc. Thanks man. Yeah I've done outlets and switches a bunch of times with no problem. That's usually just a case of taking things apart and putting them back the way they were. This was a whole different beast though.
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Dec 31, 2013 22:00
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In our living room we have some I guess spotlights. They are like a can light but swivel and have a floodlight bulb in them. I would like to change these to LED and actually got a good deal on a couple of LED retrofit fixtures, but I wasn't thinking about them being the swivel kind. The fixtures that I bought have an Edison type connector on it, is there any possibility of making them work with the swivel fixtures or can I somehow make this work without pouring too much more money in to it?
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Jan 1, 2014 00:05
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Rubiks Pubes posted:In our living room we have some I guess spotlights. They are like a can light but swivel and have a floodlight bulb in them. I would like to change these to LED and actually got a good deal on a couple of LED retrofit fixtures, but I wasn't thinking about them being the swivel kind. The fixtures that I bought have an Edison type connector on it, is there any possibility of making them work with the swivel fixtures or can I somehow make this work without pouring too much more money in to it? Usually the swivel bit is just different trim, so if you bought the kind that is self-trimming you should be able to remove the whole swivel/trim and then install your LED into the can. This presumes you don't want/need to aim them anymore. 
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Jan 1, 2014 00:15
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Rubiks Pubes posted:In our living room we have some I guess spotlights. They are like a can light but swivel and have a floodlight bulb in them. I would like to change these to LED and actually got a good deal on a couple of LED retrofit fixtures, but I wasn't thinking about them being the swivel kind. The fixtures that I bought have an Edison type connector on it, is there any possibility of making them work with the swivel fixtures or can I somehow make this work without pouring too much more money in to it? It's called a "gimbal" and yes, you can absolutely get them as LED retrofits that are gimbals. You'll be removing all of the original gimbal stuff and replacing it with the LED retrofit, and may need to directly wire the retrofit rather than using the supplied bulb-type fitting. It really depends on what your particular can looks like inside.
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Jan 1, 2014 00:40
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