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a travelling HEGEL posted:After I told my boyfriend that it was customary not to bury the dead after a big battle, merely roll them for cash and strip them before booking it to wherever you had to be (whoever lives nearby gets to clean up, if burial's done at all), he concluded that the 30YW was the worst conflict ever, edging out World War 1 and tying with the Belgian Congo thing. While I loving love the Early Modern period, this is what gets me. The casual, everyday brutality as a matter of basic pragmatism. Modern atrocities are horrific, but the perpetrators always came up with some kind of bullshit justification about Untermenschen or class enemies or whatever. Meanwhile, I get the impression that if you confronted a 30YW mercenary captain about burning down a village, slaughtering the inhabitants and leaving their bodies out to rot, he'd just shrug. The sun rises, grass grows, the moon changes phases, soldiers indiscriminately murder and pillage, and that's that. Which actually makes me curious about when and how this changed. Most of my modest, amateur knowledge is of the 16th-17th centuries and the Napoleonic Wars, and there's a big difference. The former is just unrelenting horror, cities being sacked, giving no quarter, heads on spikes et cetera, but during the latter the "gentleman's war" idea seems to have already been firmly in place. There were even people like that lovable sperg Davout (  ) who was so hardcore that Rule One of his corps was "anyone who so much as touches a civilian or his possessions gets shot on the first offense, and God help you if you even think of raping anybody". So, clearly, Sack-of-Rome type stuff no longer flies.I know next to nothing, however, of 18th century warfare. Did this cultural shift happen as a result of the 30YW and people going "oh god what are we doing", or was it more because of the rise of professional national armies over unruly mercs?
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Dec 27, 2013 16:18
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EvanSchenck posted:Niall Ferguson's deal is that he is very talented, educated at the very best institutions, and wrote very good work early in his career, but rather than continuing to do serious history he chose to work his way into a position as court historian and pet intellectual for British and American conservatism. Pankaj Mishra's fierce takedown of Ferguson in the Guardian is a great read and a good explanation of why Carlin's citation of The Pity of War turned me right off. He's basically a Tory piece of poo poo who writes books about how we'd all be better off if stuffed shirt Brit aristocrats had ruled the world forever. Can't blame a guy for figuring out how to turn history into money. AATREK CURES KIDS posted:There are methods of comparing baseball players across different eras, and it turns out that even Babe Ruth and Lou Gehrig would only be about as good as an average modern major-league player. You didn't really pick the best examples, but your point is accurate. Ruth's record was only broken in very recent years and remains far beyond what the average modern star achieves...defensively he'd be average at best. Gehrig's greatness was not just in his reliability (he's still [url=#2[/url] and in no danger of being passed again), but his offensive production which remains near the top of MLB production records. The average player doesn't hit 100 RBIs per year for over a decade (his record of 13 was only broken in 2010), or every rack up a season with a .373 batting average. I guess you could make the argument they wouldn't have been so successful against modern players, because the average really is so much better than it was back then. Godholio fucked around with this message at 16:55 on Dec 27, 2013 |
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Dec 27, 2013 16:45
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Guildencrantz posted:While I loving love the Early Modern period, this is what gets me. The casual, everyday brutality as a matter of basic pragmatism. Modern atrocities are horrific, but the perpetrators always came up with some kind of bullshit justification about Untermenschen or class enemies or whatever. Meanwhile, I get the impression that if you confronted a 30YW mercenary captain about burning down a village, slaughtering the inhabitants and leaving their bodies out to rot, he'd just shrug. The sun rises, grass grows, the moon changes phases, soldiers indiscriminately murder and pillage, and that's that. But I think you're right, that many people saw it as part of the normal run of things. You may wish that you weren't getting sunburnt right now but, like you said, the sun rises every day. And so many seem to take it in stride. Hagendorf will describe rolling up into some hapless little town with the same dry tone that he recounts everything else. However, there were plenty of people who wanted to regulate the morality of soldiers, in much the same way that they wanted to regulate the morality of the common people at around the same time. Consider Wallhausen, for instance, who writes that the profession of arms can and should be a lifestyle that is pleasing to God, if the soldier remembers religion. ("You should think of God as your highest drillmaster," he writes, "which is in accordance with Scripture: Blessed be the LORD my strength, which teacheth my hands to war, and my fingers to fight."  ) And Gustavus Adolphus enforced a prayer schedule in his camp--but he preyed upon Germany to finance his war, so gently caress him. At least Wallenstein didn't pretend his job was anything other than what it was.quote:Which actually makes me curious about when and how this changed. Most of my modest, amateur knowledge is of the 16th-17th centuries and the Napoleonic Wars, and there's a big difference. The former is just unrelenting horror, cities being sacked, giving no quarter, heads on spikes et cetera, but during the latter the "gentleman's war" idea seems to have already been firmly in place. There were even people like that lovable sperg Davout ( (FYI though, while it does happen, refusing quarter is rarely done during the 30YW, since you hire or conscript your prisoners. Why murder your future employees? Unless, of course, you want to make an example of an unusually recalcitrant fortress. Most of the really horrible poo poo in this conflict is either guerilla fighting or done against noncombatants.) Atrocities are still committed--Marlborough had his army plunder Bavaria in order to force a battle, which is a very 30YW kind of tactic. And remember what Voltaire said about the Seven Years' War. But they are no longer Plan A. You should read this, it's a new book about Early Modern atrocities. Godholio posted:Can't blame a guy for figuring out how to turn history into money. HEY GUNS fucked around with this message at 00:36 on Dec 29, 2013 |
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Dec 27, 2013 16:51
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a travelling HEGEL posted:I have no problem with mercenaries, my problem is with incompetents. I'd liken it to what's happened to national news...or basically, the plot of Anchorman 2. Edit: Also, that book is now on my wish list. I've already got a stack to get through, though.
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Dec 27, 2013 16:57
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a travelling HEGEL posted:But there were plenty of people who wanted to regulate the morality of soldiers, in much the same way that they wanted to regulate the morality of the common people at around the same time. Consider Wallhausen, for instance, who writes that the profession of arms can and should be a lifestyle that is pleasing to God, if the soldier remembers religion. ("You should think of God as your highest drillmaster," he writes, "which is in accordance with Scripture: Blessed be the LORD my strength, which teacheth my hands to war, and my fingers to fight." Speaking of Wallhausen, here's what he says you should do as a musketeer when the time for musketry has passed (click for big): 
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Dec 27, 2013 17:47
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Rodrigo Diaz posted:Speaking of Wallhausen, here's what he says you should do as a musketeer when the time for musketry has passed (click for big):  Edit: Whoever it is who did that engraving has left the victim his shift for the sake of modesty. That's fiction. The goldsmith/engraver/reiselaeufer Urs Graf (a lot of the Swiss seem to have had a bunch of jobs--Dolnstein built bridges when he wasn't killing people) has not.  I don't think Graf gave it a title, but we know this as Schrecken des Krieges, and it's about the Battle of Marignano (1515), in which Graf may have taken part. Graf is at his best in sketches, as here, rather than more formal pieces, when he gets self-conscious. This may be my favorite piece of war-related art. Everything is happening at once: battle, aftermath, and a town on fire. So is this happening behind the drunken young man to far left, or is it in his memory? Look at him, too--he's throwing it back, and he's turned his back abruptly on the scene. "Fuuuuuuuuck this for reals." And look at the empty purse in the foreground right: that is what this has come to, nothing. (Also check out the way the intestines of the disemboweled guy in foreground right echo the curls of the ostrich feathers on the drinker's hat. That's art dawg) This man may be a German, a representative of the people who beat Graf et al so hard that they would never try any proactive foreign policy things again. If so, it's interesting that Graf is so sensitive to his mental state. All I know about Graf is from his art, but he seems to have been pretty cool. I would totally have a beer with him. HEY GUNS fucked around with this message at 18:46 on Dec 27, 2013 |
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Dec 27, 2013 17:55
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Knightchat: Having trained since birth to fight, how often would your average knight actually be in a battle where he can use his fancy equipment and training?
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Dec 27, 2013 19:34
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Hegel, have you read the 1632 series by Eric Flint? If so, how realistic do you think his portrayls of period figures are?
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Dec 27, 2013 20:22
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Mycroft Holmes posted:Hegel, have you read the 1632 series by Eric Flint? If so, how realistic do you think his portrayls of period figures are?
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Dec 27, 2013 20:26
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a travelling HEGEL posted:I have not, but does he share my hatred of Gustavus Adolphus? If so then he is ok. No, he has a massive boner for Gustavus Adolphus.
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Dec 27, 2013 20:30
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Piell posted:No, he has a massive boner for Gustavus Adolphus. Also, I am a huge snob about historical fiction, never pick up most of it, and will stop reading if it's inaccurate. Because 
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Dec 27, 2013 20:33
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Q is a pretty amazing book.
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Dec 27, 2013 20:42
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Never trust a man with a cross-eyed horse. edit #2: the wiki article on 30YW claims 'The Swedish armies alone may have destroyed up to 2,000 castles, 18,000 villages and 1,500 towns in Germany, one-third of all German towns'. How the gently caress do you destroy 2000 castles? What's the definition of castle in this case? My understanding was that besieging a castle could take months or years. Over the course of the swedes' twenty years of involvement that would equate to basically one castle every four days which seems completely implausible. Slavvy fucked around with this message at 21:57 on Dec 27, 2013 |
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Dec 27, 2013 21:41
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Sand castles.
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Dec 27, 2013 22:24
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Not all castles are big and huge, and given how chaotic the Thirty Years' War was, I'd say many were probably undermanned as well. They didn't have to siege all those castles, since many smaller ones probably just surrendered at first sight of trouble. That said, I'd wager that number is quite seriously inflated.
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Dec 27, 2013 22:51
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That's from here, and the Langer that entry's talking about is this guy, who isn't a 30YW specialist. Is that article, in fact, referring to the 30YW entry in the encyclopedia he edited?  That figure's not in that article's German equivalent, for whatever it's worth. Castles can at least be figured, but how would you even catalogue all the towns that your average army would destroy, simply in the course of daily life? Also yeah, sieges take forever. Edit: Guildencrantz posted:While I loving love the Early Modern period, this is what gets me. Ugh, why did I buy that book new? It's available for $8 now. HEY GUNS fucked around with this message at 00:12 on Dec 28, 2013 |
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Dec 27, 2013 23:04
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Maybe they counted anything even vaguely fortified?
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Dec 27, 2013 23:16
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EvanSchenck posted:This is exactly the issue. Considered in isolation you might have a different and better impression of The Pity of War than the one you get when you look at it as part of his declining body of work. Read Ferguson's three part serious on HuffPo whining about how mean Paul Krugman is. That's coming off poorly.
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Dec 27, 2013 23:21
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Slavvy posted:Never trust a man with a cross-eyed horse. Edit: That horse owns though. HEY GUNS fucked around with this message at 00:09 on Dec 28, 2013 |
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Dec 28, 2013 00:06
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Speaking of historical fiction, how bullshit are Conn Iggulden's Mongol books? He had sections at the end of each book indicating what he had to change for story reasons so it seemed like he was at least trying to be accurate.
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Dec 28, 2013 00:52
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Badger of Basra posted:Read Ferguson's three part serious on HuffPo whining about how mean Paul Krugman is. That's coming off poorly. No this is: a travelling HEGEL posted:He dated the sister of a chick I know. She threw everything he owned out of his window into the street when she learned he was married. Couldn't have happened to a better guy.
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Dec 28, 2013 01:06
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Why is Gustavus Adolphus terrible? Wasn't everyone pretty bad back then?
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Dec 28, 2013 01:16
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Mycroft Holmes posted:Why is Gustavus Adolphus terrible? Wasn't everyone pretty bad back then? Hegel probably hates the way everyone acts like he wasn't as terrible as everyone else.
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Dec 28, 2013 02:46
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Godholio posted:Can't blame a guy for figuring out how to turn history into money. I can and I will. Anything Ferguson wrote about British foreign policy and especially Sir Edward Grey being the mastermind of an Anglo-German showdown is complete and utter bullshit, and his reading of the Cabinet meeting in August 1911 is almost certainly ludicrously wrong. I only add the "almost certainly" caveat because I haven't actually read Ferguson's account of that meeting, just heard what was said about it by others.
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Dec 28, 2013 02:48
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Mycroft Holmes posted:Why is Gustavus Adolphus terrible? Wasn't everyone pretty bad back then? Fucker ripped of Maurice Of Nassau and Willem and got all the credit 
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Dec 28, 2013 03:38
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Davincie posted:Fucker ripped of Maurice Of Nassau and Willem and got all the credit As a Japano-Swede, nationalist pride demands that I argue that Nobunaga did it first and Adolphus did it best. But seriously, I want a time vortex dropping Hideyoshi's army into Germany instead of Korea. That'd be fun.
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Dec 28, 2013 04:29
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The other book I got for Christmas is Grey Wolf: The Escape of Adolf Hitler 
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Dec 28, 2013 05:00
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a travelling HEGEL posted:This may be my favorite piece of war-related art. Everything is happening at once: battle, aftermath, and a town on fire. What think you about The Triumph of Death then? veekie posted:Maybe they counted anything even vaguely fortified? 5 arquebusier behind a gabion breastwork is now a castle for propaganda purposes. Frostwerks fucked around with this message at 05:49 on Dec 28, 2013 |
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Dec 28, 2013 05:43
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I recently published the tenth episode of my podcast about the Imjin War. So far that like...11 hours of material about an absolutely ridiculous conflict which is incredibly under appreciated in western historiography. Forums Rome superstar Grand Fromage has been really helpful taking pictures of old forts and signs around Ulsan as well as tying up some loose ends (lost photos) during his recent visit to the Hideyoshi museum at Osaka Castle so much thanks to him.The Black Water Dragon Part X posted:After 3 years of failed diplomacy, an enraged Hideyoshi orders his army to return to the peninsula and loot the as yet untouched province of Jeolla. A Japanese double agent succeeds in orchestrating a Korean naval disaster, while the Chinese vanguard suffers a similar fate. I figure this picture fits pretty well into recent discussion of the 30 Years War being as their are 30-120,000 severed Korean and Chinese noses inside this mound. It was pretty surreal to see old people playing board games and little kids walking to school right passed this. It's just surrounded by a bunch of residential housing and kind of comes at you out of nowhere. 
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Dec 28, 2013 05:55
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Frostwerks posted:5 arquebusier behind a gabion breastwork is now a castle for propaganda purposes.
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Dec 28, 2013 07:26
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THE LUMMOX posted:I recently published the tenth episode of my podcast about the Imjin War. So far that like...11 hours of material about an absolutely ridiculous conflict which is incredibly under appreciated in western historiography. Forums Rome superstar Grand Fromage has been really helpful taking pictures of old forts and signs around Ulsan as well as tying up some loose ends (lost photos) during his recent visit to the Hideyoshi museum at Osaka Castle so much thanks to him. 
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Dec 28, 2013 07:37
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ALL-PRO SEXMAN posted:Anything Ferguson wrote about British foreign policy and especially Sir Edward Grey being the mastermind of an Anglo-German showdown is complete and utter bullshit, and his reading of the Cabinet meeting in August 1911 is almost certainly ludicrously wrong. I only add the "almost certainly" caveat because I haven't actually read Ferguson's account of that meeting, just heard what was said about it by others. Holy poo poo what  What I've read of Grey from A World Undone and Guns of August makes him seem like one of the few rational actors in that shitshow, and leagues less warmongering than, I dunno, loving Churchill or Jackie Fisher.
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Dec 28, 2013 07:49
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achillesforever6 posted:Its sad that all I know about the war for the longest time was based on one of the campaigns of underrated RTS Empires: Dawn of the Modern World. A game where you also play Patton who could take out pillboxes with his pistol I mean, Hideyoshi's invasion of Korea involved as many men as landed on D-Day except using 16th century technology and logistics......and he did it twice.
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Dec 28, 2013 10:55
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So what was more heinous, an early modern german landsknecht's fashion sense or his propensity for rapine, murder and looting?
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Dec 28, 2013 11:16
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Azipod posted:So what was more heinous, an early modern german landsknecht's fashion sense or his propensity for rapine, murder and looting? I think the latter would make a pretty terrible parade.
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Dec 28, 2013 15:00
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a travelling HEGEL posted:Also yeah, sieges take forever. For example, the second siege of Nienburg (the city I grew up in) during the 30YW took about six months. The city still hadn't really recovered from the first siege yet and close to the end the plague broke out and weakened the defenders even further. And still they almost fought off the catholic army again. My memories are a bit hazy, but I think only less then 100 people and only a couple dozen buildings were still there after the city had capitulated. The first siege in August 1625 is still fondly remembered every year in Nienburg: Not only was the catholic general Tilly forced to retreat, the city's militia (Dat wählige Rott) successfully raided his personal tent during the siege. Also worth mentioning: Nienburg would have fallen almost certainly without a fight hadn't colonel Limbach and his Danish troops reached the city in time.  Nienburg during the 30YW.  Nienburg again from the side. Too bad about 1627, of course. But even colonel Limbach couldn't fight the plague, I guess. By the way, "Dat wählige Rott" translates into something like "The chosen band/the chosen squad".  The "Dat wählige Rott" society. Every year in costume for the yearly Scheibenschießen. Which I somehow don't think properly translates to "target practice" in this context, regardless of what my translation-website thinks. It's more of a festival, really.  What is left today of the fortifications, thanks to the stupid French during the Napoleonic wars. They even tried to make Nienburg a part of France, those bastards! And like the cowards they were they fled in the night of the 14th/15th October 1813, just after the disastrous adventure in Russia. The French were in Nienburg maybe out of some sick desire to get back at us: In 1758 the Duke Ferdinand of Braunschweig-Wolfenbüttel had to shoo them out of the city, which Napoleon apparently remembered later. (Maybe not true at all, except the part with the Duke sweeping the French out. That really happened.)
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Dec 28, 2013 15:26
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Oh hey Nienburg, I always drop Soviet air assault regiments there in games 
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Dec 28, 2013 19:38
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Koesj posted:Oh hey Nienburg, I always drop Soviet air assault regiments there in games Well, it was and still is a garrison city with a battalion attached to it, so it has a certain military value. (Today it is the EloKa Btl. 912, an electronic warfare battalion, in the past it was rocket artillery and tanks.) But anyway, since I spend most of my life in Nienburg, thanks for dropping Soviets on my head! 
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Dec 28, 2013 19:56
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the JJ posted:Hegel probably hates the way everyone acts like he wasn't as terrible as everyone else. Savior of Protestantism my fat Italian rear end--instituting conscription in a tiny, lightly-populated country is the death sentence of entire communities. You can at least look what you are doing in the face. Also I used to be Catholic. I recognise that's bigotry and team-feeling instead of considered thought, though. However, I will say that it is weird to live in Protestant Germany. I mean, I enjoyed the Reformation Day break, but... ...Cuius regio eius kiss my rear end. gradenko_2000 posted:Holy poo poo what Libluini posted:By the way, "Dat wählige Rott" translates into something like "The chosen band/the chosen squad". Azipod posted:So what was more heinous, an early modern german landsknecht's fashion sense or his propensity for rapine, murder and looting? HEY GUNS fucked around with this message at 22:04 on Dec 28, 2013 |
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Dec 28, 2013 21:42
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Bitter Mushroom posted:Knightchat: Having trained since birth to fight, how often would your average knight actually be in a battle where he can use his fancy equipment and training? What do you mean by 'battle'? Do you mean combat of any sort or do you mean what John Gillingham means when he uses the term, which is (in an abridged and less precise form) a singular engagement between the bulk of two opposing forces, away from fortifications, where the aim is to destroy the enemy force? While it earns much praise from troubadours, churchmen, and the like as the purest role of the bellatores, battle of the latter definition was exceedingly rare. Instead, the most common forms of combat were skirmish and siege assault, but in both of these circumstances knights would have plenty of room to shine, since they would not only be able to take advantage of their training and their armour, but use their horses in ways that siege combat does not often allow. I will point out, though, that mounted knights were still used in siege. We know, for example, that many knights were unhorsed while assaulting Breteuil in 1119, and a charge by horse under Ralph of Beaugency disrupted one of the French assaults on Le Puiset in 1112. Horses aside, one of the best examples of the prominence of knights in siege comes to us from Galbert of Bruges, who relates that it was knights of King Louis VI (members of his familia regis, his personal army) that manned the battering ram which knocked a hole in one of the walls of the castle church, and it was they who, therefore, were first into the breach. edit: I'm going to go through and look at one knight in particular and see if I can come up with something close to a precise estimate for engagements he fought, but we have no lives exclusively devoted to gregarii, that is, knights who were not well-off noblemen. Rodrigo Diaz fucked around with this message at 22:24 on Dec 28, 2013 |
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Dec 28, 2013 22:21
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