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The red kryptonite episodes were the only ones where I believed Welling was having fun.
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Dec 29, 2013 04:33
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Superman isn't even the hardest major character to write in the main DC stable. Wonder Woman is notoriously difficult, partially owing to the myriad interpretations and the lack of any central Wonder Woman "Canon" that writers and fans can point to. Much as Arrow has had fun reinventing large chunks of Oliver Queen's world, its pretty easy to point to the stories they took inspiration from. There aren't a ton of Great Green Arrow tales, but if you walk into any comic ship they'll probably point you to Quiver, Longbow Hunters, maybe Winick's run.... All of which, taken together, feel vaguely coherent. While I'd imagine its tough to consistently throw major threats at Superman in an ongoing series (Hey, Smallville!), a Superman movie should be a grand slam. Instead, we've gotten Bryan Singer's masturbation to Donner's version of the character. And Man of Steel didn't even feel like a Superman movie... a conversation I really don't want to get dragged back into. If anything, I think Oliver Queen's best comparison is Daredevil. Because they're both B-list characters, creators are given WAY more leeway to build up their own version of the character. I've seen a lot of "Marvel comics is strangling Agents of SHIELD" posts, but I think DC comics would be just as bad if the CW had a weekly show about Batman.
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Dec 29, 2013 04:39
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Superman stories that focus too hard on his powers are awful and miss the point. The character is written best when the story is about how he affects other people. What makes Superman great is not that he's effectively a god who can punch mountains and outrun speeding bullets. It's that he completely embraces the best parts of his own humanity and that of other people. I thought that was the point, and it's why I think Man of Steel was a pile of bullshit. But that's just me.
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Dec 29, 2013 05:02
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AshB posted:Superman stories that focus too hard on his powers are awful and miss the point. The character is written best when the story is about how he affects other people. What makes Superman great is not that he's effectively a god who can punch mountains and outrun speeding bullets. It's that he completely embraces the best parts of his own humanity and that of other people. I thought that was the point, and it's why I think Man of Steel was a pile of bullshit. But that's just me. I thought that was one of the things Man of Steel got right. More right than a lot of the Superman stuff I've seen. He had superpowers, but he was also scared and full of doubt, as much about himself and humanity as of Zod and his crew.
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Dec 29, 2013 05:07
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That Smallville instant-vanish scene was pretty good in its original context, which was meant to show what Clark's superspeed looks like to everyone else, but it really only works as a contrast to the normal VFX-y version the audience usually sees. A Flash show shouldn't do that all the time because like a lot of people pointed out, it's jarring to have powers represented like they're missing effects work and it'd be really boring if the main character just disappeared without any visual cues at all. It reminds me of this period in Superman comics where his heat vision was represented only by red pupils and the effect on his target because infrared radiation is invisible -- yeah, that's more realistic but it's also boring, whereas bright red eye lasers are awesome. This is superheroes, and superheroes are awesome! Awesome should always win.
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Dec 29, 2013 05:10
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Superman is the worst superhero ever created.
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Dec 29, 2013 05:19
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Phylodox posted:I thought that was one of the things Man of Steel got right. More right than a lot of the Superman stuff I've seen. He had superpowers, but he was also scared and full of doubt, as much about himself and humanity as of Zod and his crew. Yeah, I guess that's a fair way to look at it. Although I'm a big fan of the "there's always a way" sort of Superman, Man of Steel could've been done much better even without that attitude. To me, the story simply failed to pay off in the end because he didn't wrestle with the huge consequences of his actions (specifically, the huge collateral damage and Zod's death). They could've instead made half the movie about him reeling from the consequences and growing as a person, but instead they focused way more on several massive special effects battles. But anyway, this is the Arrow/Flash pilot thread. Sorry for the derail.
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Dec 29, 2013 05:27
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AshB posted:Superman stories that focus too hard on his powers are awful and miss the point. The character is written best when the story is about how he affects other people. What makes Superman great is not that he's effectively a god who can punch mountains and outrun speeding bullets. It's that he completely embraces the best parts of his own humanity and that of other people. I thought that was the point, and it's why I think Man of Steel was a pile of bullshit. But that's just me. AshB posted:Yeah, I guess that's a fair way to look at it. Although I'm a big fan of the "there's always a way" sort of Superman, Man of Steel could've been done much better even without that attitude. To me, the story simply failed to pay off in the end because he didn't wrestle with the huge consequences of his actions (specifically, the huge collateral damage and Zod's death). They could've instead made half the movie about him reeling from the consequences and growing as a person, but instead they focused way more on several massive special effects battles. But anyway, this is the Arrow/Flash pilot thread. Sorry for the derail. For a Superman Origin it works. This is a Superman who hasn't realized that he is a little kid in a china store. MoS 2, before it turned into a backdoor Justice League pilot, could have been great if it had covered that subject. With Lex being his antagonist, Him being a human enemy that Supes can't punch his way out of.
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Dec 29, 2013 05:39
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I think they could have dealt with the fallout of his fight with Zod and have it be nicely thematically appropriate. His greatest fear in Man of Steel is mankind turning on him and ostracizing him because of his power. I don't think they had to, though. I think most of the damage and casualties were caused by Zod and his terraforming rig before Superman even showed up, and the army (really the only people in a position to hold him accountable) knew that.
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Dec 29, 2013 05:49
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Dexo posted:For a Superman Origin it works. This is a Superman who hasn't realized that he is a little kid in a china store. MoS 2, before it turned into a backdoor Justice League pilot, could have been great if it had covered that subject. With Lex being his antagonist, Him being a human enemy that Supes can't punch his way out of. Who's to say that won't be exactly what Batman vs. Superman is about? I can easily see a plot where Bruce Wayne allies with Lex (who has so far kept his evil ambitions well-hidden) against this idiot alien who's basically Bam-Bam on crack. That's where the 'vs.' comes in, and the arc of the film would be them realising they're on the same side and that Lex is the true enemy. Honestly, I never had an issue with the destruction and Zod's death. It came across to me as a very realistic look at when would actually happen if beings of that sort of power existed and fought each other. Not to mention that Zod has all of Clark's strength and powers whilst ALSO being a highly trained, genetically-bred soldier, while Clark is more of a normal Kryptonian. Clark's only advantage seems to be his experience with living on Earth, which Zod seems to have largely matched by the final fight. I see Clark vs Zod as being like an average, physically fit guy having to stop a psychopathic Marine in a (as you noted) china shop - the fact that Clark actually killed him was impressive, beating him non-lethally without breaking any of his surroundings would be a ridiculous expectation. Phylodox posted:I think they could have dealt with the fallout of his fight with Zod and have it be nicely thematically appropriate. His greatest fear in Man of Steel is mankind turning on him and ostracizing him because of his power. I don't think they had to, though. I think most of the damage and casualties were caused by Zod and his terraforming rig before Superman even showed up, and the army (really the only people in a position to hold him accountable) knew that. edit: This too. The lion's share of the destruction happened when Clark was on the other side of the world. So, how about that Arrow show, eh?  18 days to go. 18 days too many as far as I'm concerned.
BreakAtmo fucked around with this message at 05:57 on Dec 29, 2013 |
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Dec 29, 2013 05:54
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I don't mind waiting because I know it'll be worth it.
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Dec 29, 2013 06:09
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Phylodox posted:I don't mind waiting because I know it'll be worth it. I know, I know, but still. 
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Dec 29, 2013 06:11
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I seriously can't wait for the next League of Assassins episode. I hope Nyssa sticks around for a lot longer than Al Owal. That guy was a really interesting antagonist and it was a shame he died so soon.
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Dec 29, 2013 06:26
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Man of Steel's largest problem is that it relegates Superman into a passive role for the ENTIRE FILM. First he's subservient to his father, then his space-father. Then Zod basically says "The only way to beat me is XYZ" and Clark just goes "Yeah, okay, I'll do that." And while I like some of the pieces in isolation (Lois' involvement is great), every subplot further turns him into a supporting character in his own story. I just got done rewatching Batman Begins, and the one thing they absolutely nailed to the wall is how that entire film is Bruce's movie. Everything ties back to him, he's at the crux of nearly every scene. As for the other MoS stuff... I would've cared a lot more about Metropolis getting wrecked if we had SEEN or spent any time there beforehand. The Dark Knight trilogy, even at its weaker moments, always takes pains to give you a good sense of what Gotham is like and why we should care about it. Man of Steel just goes "Oh yeah, metropolis gonna get hosed up!" without investing a single second of screentime to making the audience care. To tie that back to Arrow, I love how this season has really done more to show us the state of Star City. Instead of isolating half the cast to the cavernous Queen mansion, everyone is off in different sections of the city showing us more and more facets.
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Dec 29, 2013 12:05
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Narcissus1916 posted:Man of Steel's largest problem is that it relegates Superman into a passive role for the ENTIRE FILM. First he's subservient to his father, then his space-father. Then Zod basically says "The only way to beat me is XYZ" and Clark just goes "Yeah, okay, I'll do that." Really? You didn't think that Man of Steel's biggest problem was that it was an episode (ok, half a dozen episodes, I know how slow they were) of dragon ball z masquerading as a superman movie?
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Dec 29, 2013 13:15
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The Lord Bude posted:Really? You didn't think that Man of Steel's biggest problem was that it was an episode (ok, half a dozen episodes, I know how slow they were) of dragon ball z masquerading as a superman movie? Yeah, flying around and fistfighting powerful villains has no place in a Superman film.
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Dec 29, 2013 13:44
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BreakAtmo posted:Yeah, flying around and fistfighting powerful villains has no place in a Superman film. When half the movie is one massive chaotic fight scene, it's excessive. cf: Nolan's Batman trilogy.
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Dec 29, 2013 14:07
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The Lord Bude posted:When half the movie is one massive chaotic fight scene, it's excessive. cf: Nolan's Batman trilogy. It's been a while since I saw it but I'm pretty sure this is an enormous exaggeration. In any case I don't care, since I loved the action. Especially the fight in Smallville. Faora-Ul was one of the most awesome villains I've ever seen.
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Dec 29, 2013 16:19
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2 super powered guys punching each other for 90 minutes is probably exactly what a lot of people want from a Superman movie.
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Dec 29, 2013 16:48
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Aphrodite posted:2 super powered guys punching each other for 90 minutes is probably exactly what a lot of people want from a Superman movie. It's a good thing that wasn't what MoS was, then.
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Dec 29, 2013 16:55
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People rarely want what they think they want, geeks most of all.
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Dec 29, 2013 17:19
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Rhyno posted:Diggle's so cool they're putting him on the back of every DC comic this month. Oh the black driver has to go in the back of the comic? I see how it is.
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Dec 29, 2013 17:47
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The Lord Bude posted:Really? You didn't think that Man of Steel's biggest problem was that it was an episode (ok, half a dozen episodes, I know how slow they were) of dragon ball z masquerading as a superman movie?
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Dec 29, 2013 18:07
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We're on a mid-season hiatus so this is the perfect time for tangential derails. Man of Steel had great fight scenes, great fight scenes do not make for a great movie. Arrow/Flash talk: Do ya'll think Roy will keep his powers permanently? I like his arc so far, but I also really want to see Roy as an archer in this sort of scene at some point. (Comments about geeks not really knowing what they want are totally valid here) 
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Dec 29, 2013 18:14
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Yeah I hope Ollie trains him and then one day is like 'you're ready' and presents him with that red and yellow outfit.
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Dec 29, 2013 18:18
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After realizing that shooting Roy in the leg won't stop him investigating stuff he has his mind set on, Ollie resorts to more and more outlandish ways to dissuade him such as making him wear the speedy suit.
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Dec 29, 2013 19:09
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I decided to watch a few Man of Steel fight scenes on recommendation from this thread, and... ummm...  If that movie ended with anything other than Superman as the most hated and feared entity on the Earth, with every government of every nation banding together to hunt him down and kill him, then it's total bullshit. In no recognizable world would someone publicly demonstrated to be capable of singlehandedly leveling cities be allowed to roam free. There would be a witchhunt to end all witchhunts and even if humanity couldn't kill him, they would never stop trying. I mean maybe, just maybe if he had saved the world a few times before, the world could've forgiven him a couple hundred thousand casualties. But if that little blowout with Zod was his debut on the public stage... yeah, Superman is public enemy number one forever. First impressions are very important.
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Dec 29, 2013 19:18
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Enter the Batman.
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Dec 29, 2013 19:19
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Spergatory posted:I decided to watch a few Man of Steel fight scenes on recommendation from this thread, and... ummm... No. He singlehandedly saved the loving planet. It's completely justifiable for a majority of people to not want him killed off. One City was hosed up. Pretty sure humanity as a whole can spare one city for the life of every human on the planet.
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Dec 29, 2013 19:40
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Habibi posted:Yeah I hope Ollie trains him and then one day is like 'you're ready' and presents him with that red and yellow outfit. Speedy suit is still the best costume that Roy has ever had. edit: I also think a skip directly to Arsenal is probable. jscolon2.0 fucked around with this message at 20:00 on Dec 29, 2013 |
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Dec 29, 2013 19:43
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hi liter posted:We're on a mid-season hiatus so this is the perfect time for tangential derails. It would be weird for him to be super strong and tough, and then be an archer. If he keeps his powers i could see him being more of a meelee fighter.
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Dec 29, 2013 19:52
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Oasx posted:It would be weird for him to be super strong and tough, and then be an archer. If he keeps his powers i could see him being more of a meelee fighter. Maybe they set it up so Ollie starts training him in archery to get comic readers salivating, and then it turns out that he's just terrible at it and/or is so strong he keeps breaking his bows
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Dec 29, 2013 20:04
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Dexo posted:No. Not to mention how the whole thing was a massive public spectacle. In an ironic twist, the military that was involved was on Clark's side. It's pretty much as clear cut who the good and bad guys were in this fight as it was that Nazis were the enemy in WWII. Not saying that there is no room for Lex Luthor's spin department to come in and smear the blue man's image, but he doesn't have negative sentiment to build on. He'll have to create it himself, rather than capitalizing on a preexisting sentiment. Which, granted, isn't hard. As the real world easily evidences, getting people to hate and fear what is different from them is as easy as promising one side heaven and the other hell. On the subject of Roy, I have a feeling that unless they come up with a way to negate the serum, he'll become a full-time bruiser. I'd rather him become his own hero in this case than having him take one of the Green Arrow sidekick roles. Habibi posted:Maybe they set it up so Ollie starts training him in archery to get comic readers salivating, and then it turns out that he's just terrible at it and/or is so strong he keeps breaking his bows Give him bows designed with special materials that give him a 2000lb draw or whatever his strength permits so that he can use his bow as an anti-tank weapon 
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Dec 29, 2013 20:06
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Warmachine posted:Give him bows designed with special materials that give him a 2000lb draw or whatever his strength permits so that he can use his bow as an anti-tank weapon
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Dec 29, 2013 20:11
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Spergatory posted:I decided to watch a few Man of Steel fight scenes on recommendation from this thread, and... ummm... If you just watched some clips on youtube without the context I can see how you'd come to that conclusion but like Warmachine said, it's pretty obvious what actually happened. The city was wrecked by Zod's forces before Superman ever showed up and their fight took place almost entirely in the wrecked zone, and at all times he was fighting the people who did the destroying.
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Dec 29, 2013 20:11
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McSpanky posted:If you just watched some clips on youtube without the context I can see how you'd come to that conclusion but like Warmachine said, it's pretty obvious what actually happened. The city was wrecked by Zod's forces before Superman ever showed up and their fight took place almost entirely in the wrecked zone, and at all times he was fighting the people who did the destroying. Also I think it was known that the aliens said they were gonna kill Earth unless Superman gave himself up, which he then voluntarily did. Everyone did fear Superman, like that poster said, before he saved the day.
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Dec 29, 2013 20:32
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Arrow Season 2: Man of Steel was pretty disappointing
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Dec 29, 2013 20:55
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Drifter posted:Arrow Season 2: Man of Steel was pretty disappointing Arrow Season 2: Christopher Nolan you have failed this movie!
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Dec 29, 2013 21:40
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jscolon2.0 posted:I also think a skip directly to Arsenal is probable. Pretty much. The question is, how do they get Thea into the red and yellow Speedy suit?
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Dec 29, 2013 22:02
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AlternateNu posted:Pretty much. The question is, how do they get Thea into the red and yellow Speedy suit? Training montage with Barrowman
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Dec 29, 2013 22:04
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