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HotCanadianChick posted:The turbo snobbery I don't get though - the most famous 'classic' BMW model was the 2002 Tii - a turbocharged model. Tii was NA, not turbo. A very advanced NA model for the time, but still NA.
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Dec 29, 2013 22:06
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Sorry to keep asking questions, but I had planned on getting a new water pump and thermostat from Bavauto. Is that pretty much the least expensive place to find E90 parts? Pelican was more expensive for the same stuff. I had planned on getting the Pierburg pump they have.
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Dec 29, 2013 22:11
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TheStig posted:Everything is being sacrificed at the altar of MPG. Manual transmissions, steering feel, NA engines, and so on. As I fail to understand my family's love of the old muscle cars, I'm sure my kids will wonder why dad hangs on to that old V8 powered thing with its hydraulic steering and lack of electric assist motors.
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Dec 29, 2013 22:15
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Funzo posted:Sorry to keep asking questions, but I had planned on getting a new water pump and thermostat from Bavauto. Is that pretty much the least expensive place to find E90 parts? Pelican was more expensive for the same stuff. I had planned on getting the Pierburg pump they have. You might try GetBMWParts.com if you are on the East Coast.
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Dec 29, 2013 22:28
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Das Volk posted:As I fail to understand my family's love of the old muscle cars, I'm sure my kids will wonder why dad hangs on to that old V8 powered thing with its hydraulic steering and lack of electric assist motors. I'm bummed out that by the time I'm ready to buy a new car in 3-5 years the 911, cayman, and m4 are all going to have eps. 
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Dec 29, 2013 22:44
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HotCanadianChick posted:The turbo snobbery I don't get though - the most famous 'classic' BMW model was the 2002 Tii - a turbocharged model. Everyone wants BMW to be the kind of BMW they like. Yes BMW is known around the world for it's naturally aspirated inline six motor attached to a small sports coupe, but they are also known for sedans and turbos and all kinds of things.
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Dec 29, 2013 22:48
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Das Volk posted:As I fail to understand my family's love of the old muscle cars, I'm sure my kids will wonder why dad hangs on to that old V8 powered thing with its hydraulic steering and lack of electric assist motors. Muscle cars do suck. But that isn't to say everything of that time period was bad. Air-cooled 911s were and continue to be simply fantastic. Cojawfee posted:Everyone wants BMW to be the kind of BMW they like. Yes BMW is known around the world for it's naturally aspirated inline six motor attached to a small sports coupe, but they are also known for sedans and turbos and all kinds of things. Nothing wrong with sedans. As far as I can tell the only problem with the E46 M3 was that they didn't offer a sedan variant. They are known for making efficient turbo diesels, not performance gas turbos.
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Dec 29, 2013 22:52
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BMW stuck a turbo on a straight 6 back in like 1984 and stuck it in a 7 series for christ sakes. Like have you even driven a M235i? How do you know it's a hunk of junk? If you have an empirical comparison of the two cars that you want to make, fine. But if it's just going to be, *~MY E46 M3  ~* then you're just being a tool.
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Dec 29, 2013 23:38
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rscott posted:BMW stuck a turbo on a straight 6 back in like 1984 and stuck it in a 7 series for christ sakes. Are we arguing a 7 is a performance car that we want to measure small sport sedans against? I certainly would agree that is BMW's current angle, especially in light of how the 5 and 7 now platform share(much to the destruction of the 5/M5). I've driven the M135i, and I don't expect the M235i to be that much different, especially considering the share the same EPS unit. I also don't currently own an E46 M3, but that doesn't change the fact that they share very little in common besides having two doors and power going to the rear.
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Dec 30, 2013 00:17
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TheStig posted:Are we arguing a 7 is a performance car that we want to measure small sport sedans against? I certainly would agree that is BMW's current angle, especially in light of how the 5 and 7 now platform share(much to the destruction of the 5/M5). Pretty close in weight, overall dimensions, and power. The 235 probably won't eat as many main bearings, tear the rear subframe mounts, or have 30,000 mile valve adjustment intervals though.
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Dec 30, 2013 00:20
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wallaka posted:Pretty close in weight, overall dimensions, and power. And entirely different in power delivery, handling, feedback, character, strength, and so on. I certainly agree that to the novice who wants a new warranty car and a go fast pedal, the M235i is a better car. But if you know your way around a wrench, and want a drivers car, the E46 M3 can be locked down into a bulletproof car for under $1k(Besian VANOS fix, subframe foam) and deliver that driving experience. The M135i I drove was utterly lifeless. I had no idea what was going on with the tires through the wheel, and as a result I had no indication of where the limits were or how much it could be pushed. The interior was certainly nice though.
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Dec 30, 2013 00:36
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Evidently the Electric Power Steering is getting better (with more "feel") each iteration - so just hang tight and it will be near Porsche level hopefully soon as their owners seem pretty happy with it now.
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Dec 30, 2013 00:36
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Keyser S0ze posted:Evidently the Electric Power Steering is getting better (with more "feel") each iteration - so just hang tight and it will be near Porsche level hopefully soon as their owners seem pretty happy with it now. Cayman just got knocked out of Evo's car of the year for lifeless EPS. Having taken my dad's current Boxster S for a spin when I was visiting for the holidays, I'm inclined to agree. The new GT3 has the only system that has been called good. BMW's EPS is rubbish across the board, as is the HPS in the F10 M5. The car with the most steering feel currently on the lot is the X1(E9x gen HPS), which is frankly an idiotic situation.
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Dec 30, 2013 00:46
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The base price of an E46 M3 in 2001 was $46,900 before options. That's almost $62K today. Maybe the M235i isn't exactly an M3, but it seems silly to complain that a car that's almost 25% cheaper isn't exactly the same as your favorite M3, not to mention the fact that people buying ten year old cars and modifying them probably aren't the M235i's target market anyways.
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Dec 30, 2013 00:47
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Chemmy posted:The base price of an E46 M3 in 2001 was $46,900 before options. That's almost $62K today. That wasn't the question. So, ok? Also, I like all the M3s, even the E36 US spec and the E92.
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Dec 30, 2013 00:58
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I really don't understand what you're all arguing about anyways. Arguing about 3 series lines when you can own a 5 series is like arguing about civic lines when you can own a supra. Everybody knows BMW only makes the 3 series to fund development of the more exclusive 5 series. Am i doing this right? The thing i own is the right thing to own, and the things i don't own are obviously the wrong things?
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Dec 30, 2013 01:08
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Powershift posted:I really don't understand what you're all arguing about anyways. The only moral BMW is my BMW.
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Dec 30, 2013 01:46
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I'm not arguing that they won't sell, and that BMW won't continue to make boatloads of cash. My point is that if your interests are in the driving experience of an E Gen BMW, you aren't going to find something similar in the F gen cars besides the badge.
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Dec 30, 2013 02:04
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EPS scares me a little because I rely on steering feel a lot while winter driving right now. When I finally get around to having a car made in this decade I feel like I'm going to have to relearn to drive if the EPS is really bad.
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Dec 30, 2013 02:40
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That brings up an interesting point, does electronic steering replicate the super floaty feel when you completely lack frontend grip on slippery surfaces?
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Dec 30, 2013 03:55
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Crustashio posted:That brings up an interesting point, does electronic steering replicate the super floaty feel when you completely lack frontend grip on slippery surfaces? Yes. Also when you do have grip.
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Dec 30, 2013 04:14
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I don't find it "floaty" at all, it's just "not there" and uncommunicative and feels a bit fake when you kick it into to sport mode and you feel it tighten up. It is especially evident if you jump from an E46/E90 where you can feel every pebble your car runs over into an EPS BMW. Floaty is the 1968 Chevy Impala I learned how to drive in, now that poo poo was "floaty."
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Dec 30, 2013 04:44
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Powershift posted:I really don't understand what you're all arguing about anyways. Actually the 5'er brings in half of BMW's profits. I would venture the 5 series is funding a chunk of other poo poo. An article on the intenet posted:But here's a number that absolutely fascinated me. According to BMW execs, the 5-series -- the company's second-best-selling model after the multifarious 3-series -- represents 50% of the company's total profit. Buyers typically heap pricey luxury, technology and sport packages on top of the $50,000 base price, resulting in a tidy windfall for BMW, if not an F5 tornado of money. http://articles.latimes.com/2010/jan/29/business/la-fi-neil29-2010jan29
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Dec 30, 2013 06:13
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I drove my friend's E63 AMG yesterday and I can certainly understand why people go for the bonkers luxury package options. If you just want to blast around in luxury that's certainly one way of doing it, and it's a game BMW has to play with Audi and Merc. That the profits from all that crap is large is no surprise to me. I wonder if people like me optioning top end models lightly or not at all have a significantly narrower profit margin.
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Dec 30, 2013 07:32
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I would wager a bet that even though there is a million 3 series out there, a majority of them are base level 328i's or what ever the low end model is these days, that are leased. Its BMW's bread and butter for the most part and gets people a taste of the brand. A friend of mine that works at the BMW dealer says that people that stick with BMW brand at the end of the lease generally opt for a 528i with a few goodies added on. I would take a guess adding a nav computer to a 5'er (I think its a $1500 option?) only costs BMW 200 bucks at most for the additional hardware, throw that in with a set of alloys or a few other options, its pretty easy to add a hefty margin on top of an already expensive car that shares power trains with several other models. Make 1 good 4 banger easy on fuel, a decent 6 pot for the mid level models and a V8. Pretty much every engine is shared with 2-3 models, which would drive down the cost of developing engines for separate models. Really, its a pretty brilliant business decision. Edit: vvv if thats the matrix, then yes, it makes sense why the 5 makes the most money. With rough figures below, its pretty clear to see what the bigger income earner is. 328i base price: 33,000 x 8% = 2640 528i base+(x drive, luxury trim, cold weather): 59,000 x 8% = 4720 BrokenKnucklez fucked around with this message at 08:08 on Dec 30, 2013 |
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Dec 30, 2013 07:48
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According to Bloomberg the breakdown is this 20% - dealer 12% - administration (i.e. marketing, R&D, management salary) 60% - actual manufacturing, operations, suply chain logistics 8% - pure profit to BMW gmbh Not sure where the extra profits from the luxury upgrades go but my guess would be dealer, profit, and probably a slim amount towards mfg to pay for the increased cost of materials http://www.bloomberg.com/video/87801048-what-s-the-profit-margin-on-your-bmw.html
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Dec 30, 2013 07:59
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BrokenKnucklez posted:I would wager a bet that even though there is a million 3 series out there, a majority of them are base level 328i's or what ever the low end model is these days, that are leased. Its BMW's bread and butter for the most part and gets people a taste of the brand. A friend of mine that works at the BMW dealer says that people that stick with BMW brand at the end of the lease generally opt for a 528i with a few goodies added on. I would say that the overwhelming majority of 3ers out there worldwide are barebones 316d models - I can't imagine there's much margin in those at all. Also, considering they have a lot in common, I can't imagine that the 5-Series cost that much more to produce than a 3-Series, yet it will retail for substantially more money for an equivalent trim/engine package. E: Around here, a 335i xDrive sedan is $53,800 for the base car, while a 535i xDrive sedan is $66,650. MrChips fucked around with this message at 08:10 on Dec 30, 2013 |
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Dec 30, 2013 08:05
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MrChips posted:I would say that the overwhelming majority of 3ers out there worldwide are barebones 316d models I doubt that - the US is a huge 3-series market and they don't get the small diesels at all
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Dec 30, 2013 08:31
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Up until very recently, the US had junk, cheap, high sulfur diesel. European engines would choke on the stuff in 60,000 miles. What we have I understand now is better than it used to be, but it's nowhere as good as what the Europeans burn in their vehicles
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Dec 30, 2013 09:16
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dissss posted:I doubt that - the US is a huge 3-series market and they don't get the small diesels at all I drive an M-Sport 335D with a JBD tuner a lot. It's loving hilarious to drive with the mountain of TOARKS it makes, everyone looks at you like you're retarded or actually says something when you put the diesel nozzle in it, and the highway range is insane.
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Dec 30, 2013 09:19
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MrChips posted:I would say that the overwhelming majority of 3ers out there worldwide are barebones 316d models - I can't imagine there's much margin in those at all. Also, considering they have a lot in common, I can't imagine that the 5-Series cost that much more to produce than a 3-Series, yet it will retail for substantially more money for an equivalent trim/engine package. And around here a stock 335i is US$82,600, and that's before all of our luxury car taxes. You're not the ones being gouged (The 535i is US$103,500, and if you want to compare dicks, a fully stocked 760Li is US$419,800) You  -ers whinging about BMW prices are REALLY pissing off those of us in the rest of the world 
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Dec 30, 2013 09:24
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Captain Postal posted:And around here a stock 335i is US$82,600, and that's before all of our luxury car taxes. You're not the ones being gouged Your minimum wage is double what it is in the states, and 50% higher than most of canada. A base model focus(and that's the hatch) is $19k aud, or 1188 hours at minimum wage. A base model focus hatch is $16,810 USD(the hatch is $18,600), which is 2318 hours at minum wage, or 2565 hours at minimum wage for the hatch. With the 2565 hours at minimum wage an american has to work for that focus hatch, an aussie can buy a falcon XR6 turbo. Which doesn't matter, because you all drive corollas anyways, So quit your loving whining. edit: also, $20,000 of that 3 series price is the Luxury car tax, and $6,000 is the GST. You REALLY need to quit whining. Powershift fucked around with this message at 10:15 on Dec 30, 2013 |
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Dec 30, 2013 10:09
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dissss posted:I doubt that - the US is a huge 3-series market and they don't get the small diesels at all Bear in mind that BMW sells more cars in Europe than every other sales region put together (~860,000 sales out of 1.55 million total), so it is a pretty reasonable assumption that there are far more 3-Series sold in Europe than every other market put together as well.
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Dec 30, 2013 10:43
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How can the S2000 do EPS so right, and most everyone else do it so wrong?
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Dec 30, 2013 16:47
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Geez, didn't expect to set off a FIRESTORM of controversy with that M235i comment.  Anyway- I think something horrible has happened/been happening. My apartment is one floor of a house, with my 90 year old landlord and his family living in the other apartment. We share a narrow driveway that fits two cars, but with one blocking the other in. That's usually fine- I don't use my car (E36 325is, 5-speed) often, so my landlord usually takes the outer spot. Whenever I have to get out, I just move his car and pull out (and vice versa on the rare occasion that I'm the one doing the blocking). I got in late last night from visiting the parents for the holidays, so I parked in the outer spot. This morning I find the landlord's car gone and my car alone in the driveway. I get in to go grocery shopping and it dawns on me- my landlord's been totally moving my car without removing the parking brake  . I've only given him the need to move it maybe 5 or 6 times in the year that I've lived here but it's something that I'd been suspecting for a long time. As I hesitantly test it by putting the car in reverse and lightly revving the engine, I realize that the parking brake isn't holding nearly as strongly as it had last night despite being fully engaged- in fact, it's kind of not holding much at all. The ridiculous engine revving noises and dying animal screeching I'd heard this morning while trying to sleep in suddenly make a lot more sense as I feel my stomach tighten up. My car was the one making those sounds.It goes without saying that I'm going to have this car looked over as soon as humanly possible. What areas should get particular attention and what sort of wear/damage can I expect? Just imagine the scenario of trying to back out/pull in a manual E36 with the p-brake fully on. Also, I live about a block from a very large BMW dealership (Herb Chambers). Would it be worth having the guys at the shop there look it over for bimmer-specific stuff or would any shop be able to give me a good assessment?
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Dec 30, 2013 17:36
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You can tighten your e-brake pretty easily, but maybe you should take it over to the dealer anyway to change the locks.
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Dec 30, 2013 17:50
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rscott posted:BMW stuck a turbo on a straight 6 back in like 1984 and stuck it in a 7 series for christ sakes.
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Dec 30, 2013 19:06
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destructo posted:At least it's getting a LSD. There will be an LSD that you can buy and then pay someone to install.
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Dec 30, 2013 19:14
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TheStig posted:Tii was NA, not turbo. A very advanced NA model for the time, but still NA. Doh, you are correct. The 2002 Turbo was a separate model based off the Tii (and sharing the same engine, albeit with lower compression), but the regular Tii was not a turbo. My bad.
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Dec 30, 2013 20:13
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Electric Bugaloo posted:Geez, didn't expect to set off a FIRESTORM of controversy with that M235i comment. It could just be out of adjustment. Adjust the shoes properly (NOT THE CABLE AT THE EBRAKE) and that might fix it. Worst case you need all new hardware which isn't much cost wise, but labour can be annoying if you have to feed new cables in.
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Dec 30, 2013 23:27
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