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Kalros destroying a Reaper felt wrong to me. They could've had it drag the Reaper underground, you have the happy warm atmosphere ending we saw in the final version, then the Reaper can come back from the ground having killed Kalros and chase you off the planet.
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Dec 29, 2013 06:15
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Fojar38 posted:Kalros destroying a Reaper felt wrong to me. They could've had it drag the Reaper underground, you have the happy warm atmosphere ending we saw in the final version, then the Reaper can come back from the ground having killed Kalros and chase you off the planet. That's what it was always shown as during previews and such. But, yeah, Dan Didio raises a good point.
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Dec 29, 2013 06:26
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That lone Reaper, stuck under the sand, slowly being digested by a giant worm. All because the Catalyst told it to go there, go rile up the robots against Quarians and all the other organics. Oh nyooo too big of a job for Mr. Bigshot Harbinger, can't do that himself no oh no Bigshot gotta be on Earth taking care of the humans. Nope, gotta be this random low level Reaper that probly got last pickings of a civilization melted down to form it from some previous cycle. I sorta feel bad for the Reaper now. Catalyst is a dick.
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Dec 29, 2013 06:30
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Well, since I made the last post anyway, I'll use this for a random gripe: Being able to fight with my old ME2 crew in the simulators would be way more awesome if they still had all of their combat banter. Them being so silent is kinda  . Where's Grunt screaming I AM KROGAN?
MisterBibs fucked around with this message at 08:40 on Dec 29, 2013 |
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Dec 29, 2013 08:07
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Fojar38 posted:Kalros destroying a Reaper felt wrong to me. They could've had it drag the Reaper underground, you have the happy warm atmosphere ending we saw in the final version, then the Reaper can come back from the ground having killed Kalros and chase you off the planet. It would have been difficult to justify the Krogan helping out the Turians if there was an active Reaper alive and walking around Tuchanka. Also, the first half of the game would have been too down, especially without an ME2 import. Earth in ruins, Palaven in ruins, Eve dies (default is no cure saved), Salarian Councilor dies (default is no Kirrahe or Thane), Tuchanka under Reaper attack, etc. You need to leave some hope for the player.
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Dec 29, 2013 08:41
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I wouldn't give up Kalros killing the Reaper for anything. That was one of the best scenes in the series.
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Dec 29, 2013 09:11
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I guess I'm just annoyed at the prospect of the cthulu-robots being defeated by a big worm. I mean at least it wasn't a Reaper Capital Ship that was destroyed and was a smaller one instead because holy poo poo.
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Dec 29, 2013 10:05
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Lycus posted:I wouldn't give up Kalros killing the Reaper for anything. That was one of the best scenes in the series. There's a decent chance that Kalros is older than that destroyer, since it's implied the Protheans created the Thresher Maws and she predates Krogan civilization.
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Dec 29, 2013 10:20
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The Reapers' motivation should have been to exterminate or integrate all technological civilizations before they have a chance to become advanced enough to enslave them the way the Leviathans did. They forestall generational conflict by devouring their children like Saturn. Star Control 2 was so good.
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Dec 29, 2013 10:32
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Bongo Bill posted:The Reapers' motivation should have been to exterminate or integrate all technological civilizations before they have a chance to become advanced enough to enslave them the way the Leviathans did. They forestall generational conflict by devouring their children like Saturn. A big thing they did forget from Mass Effect 1 was that Vigil does describe the Reapers as harvesting technology as well as people, giving the impression that they were taking innovations of their own technology to improve themselves.
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Dec 29, 2013 11:51
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Inverness posted:I myself favor Synthesis. Ignoring how it's executed with ridiculous space magic in ME3, I think the concept has merit. Adding some synthetic-ness to organics and adding some organic-ness to synthetics to help achieve understanding seems like a good idea. At no point does it say 'they'll all be essentially the same as they were, just glowing green,' the data given is that the catalyst will convert them into creatures that are a synthesis of biological and tecnological elements. Which is precisely what you've been trying to stop the entire game. I mean yes, it does turn out ok in the end and EDI and Joker get to have tiny mechbabies, but going in blind and just reading the description of synthesis given to you (even in the extended cut) it sounds like about the worst loving idea in existence. I just find it hard to trust a machine that thinks a cannibal is an acceptable approximation of a batarian to suddenly have the power to convert the entire galaxy.
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Dec 29, 2013 14:02
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Bobby Deluxe posted:I just find it hard to trust a machine that thinks a cannibal is an acceptable approximation of a batarian to suddenly have the power to convert the entire galaxy. Uh, did you ever think that maybe if all Batarians had a human grafted on in place of their arm then the two cultures could actually find some common ground and get along? Catalyst is a hero, idiot. He just wanted to prevent any more Mindoirs. 
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Dec 29, 2013 14:10
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From a machine's point of view, the Banshee IS probably more efficient than an Asari 
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Dec 29, 2013 14:58
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Bobby Deluxe posted:The problem with chosing synthesis is that you've had two games of the reapers turning everyone into biomechanical abominations from the darkest recesses of HR Giger's wank bank; and then suddenly your 'reward' for getting all the assets is to let an AI that's just admitted it's part of the Reaper cycle... turn everyone into biomechanical abominations. That's the point. The Reapers themselves are not capable of legitimately bluring the line between the Synthetic and the Organic enough to end the otherwise-mandatory harvesting Cycle. Their methods of creating biomechanical entities are mindless abominations with the sole purpose of harvesting organic life to make into a Reaper. It takes the power/thought of the Catalyst to do that,. It's important to remember that the AI is part of the Cycle, but it exists as something designed to Find A Way To End the Cycle, to figure out how to stop the Reapers from having to harvest organic life in order to prevent it from being slain by its synthetic creations. It's a fact of the ME universe that no amount of gently caress-you-dad-this-cycle-is-a-spehshul-snowflake mentality can argue against. Bobby Deluxe posted:At no point does it say 'they'll all be essentially the same as they were, just glowing green,' the data given is that the catalyst will convert them into creatures that are a synthesis of biological and tecnological elements...I mean yes, it does turn out ok in the end Yes, it is worrisome. That's why the Catalyst was designed to not make the choice itself, but to simply provide the choice to do so to someone else.
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Dec 29, 2013 22:14
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Cleatcleat posted:Catalyst is a dick. Catalyst is such a dick that not only does Sovereign lie about the fact that Catalyst controls all the Reapers from a central location, but went so far as to maintain that lie and pretend that it (Sovereign) needed to be physically present at the Citadel to open the path for the other Reapers to return, when apparently the Catalyst could have just done it at any time since it was physically located in the Citadel and the Keepers served no actual purpose whatsoever. I have to respect Sovereign for its dedication to the lie! Jerusalem fucked around with this message at 22:43 on Dec 29, 2013 |
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Dec 29, 2013 22:40
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Jerusalem posted:Catalyst is such a dick that not only does Sovereign lie about the fact that Catalyst controls all the Reapers from a central location, but went so far as to maintain that line and pretend that it (Sovereign) needed to be physically present at the Citadel to open the path for the other Reapers to return, when apparently the Catalyst could have just done it at any time since it was physically located in the Citadel and the Keepers served no actual purpose whatsoever. Wasn't the original point of the Protheans' back door into the Citadel after the Reaper purge via the Conduit was that they used the Keepers to sever the Reapers' control over the Citadel, at least directly (thus implicitly imprisoning the Catalyst on the Citadel, in a way), thus requiring Sovereign to go in and manually retake control of the Citadel. I understood the implication even in ME1 to be that Sovereign coming in by force with a giant fleet of enthralled Geth was not standard operating procedure, and that a properly done Reaper cycle would just be the whole Reaper fleet phasing in without warning right to the Citadel, with Sovereign only really present as an observer to view the progress of the Citadel species independent of the Reaper fleet. Not that your point doesn't still stand as a logical flaw, mind you, but I think they tried to hand wave that and just did a lovely job of it. 
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Dec 29, 2013 22:45
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Lightning Knight posted:Wasn't the original point of the Protheans' back door into the Citadel after the Reaper purge via the Conduit was that they used the Keepers to sever the Reapers' control over the Citadel, at least directly (thus implicitly imprisoning the Catalyst on the Citadel, in a way), thus requiring Sovereign to go in and manually retake control of the Citadel. I understood the implication even in ME1 to be that Sovereign coming in by force with a giant fleet of enthralled Geth was not standard operating procedure, and that a properly done Reaper cycle would just be the whole Reaper fleet phasing in without warning right to the Citadel, with Sovereign only really present as an observer to view the progress of the Citadel species independent of the Reaper fleet. The original point was that Sovereign had to send a signal to the Keepers that would open the Citadel Mass Relay to dark space for the other Reapers to come through. The criticism post-ME3 is why the Catalyst, the thing that has complete control over the Reapers, and the thing that built the Citadel and the relay network itself, would need one of its tools to signal back to itself (via an unreliable proxy like the Keepers) to tell itself to open its very own relay. E: They didn't even try to hand-wave that away either. The simple fact is that the whole Catalyst story was absolutely not planned at the time when ME1 was written and by the time they wrote ME3's ending, they just didn't even bother to mention the ME1 mechanics at all. It wasn't even hand-waved away, it was plainly ignored. Burning Mustache fucked around with this message at 22:55 on Dec 29, 2013 |
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Dec 29, 2013 22:52
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Burning Mustache posted:The original point was that Sovereign had to send a signal to the Keepers that would open the Citadel Mass Relay to dark space for the other Reapers to come through. The criticism post-ME3 is why the Catalyst, the thing that has complete control over the Reapers, and the thing that built the Citadel and the relay network itself, would need one of its tools to signal back to itself (via an unreliable proxy like the Keepers) to tell itself to open its very own relay. Even if the Catalyst made any sense (which it doesn't), the writers had an even bigger problem related to the Citadel. They apparently completely forgot the fact that the Citadel controls the Relay Network. The Citadel races could have used this supreme advantage to quarantine Reaper-invaded systems to buy themselves all the time they needed to prepare, but they just forget all about it. Not that the Reapers themselves were any better. They don't bother taking this huge "I win" button until TIM tells them to and even then, they don't use it's real power at all for no explainable reason. This is part of why ME3 bugs me: the writers had so many potential outs, but just bulled on putting themselves into a corner by dropping all of it so the Reapers were so invincible that they needed the massive cop-out of the Crucible's mystery magic to end things. It's like they had to try to make things go so wrong. VVV Edit: That only worked on the Omega 4 Relay. If they could activate and deactivate Relays at will, why would they ever allow the races to keep using them? They'd shut them off as soon as possible. It's not like they're in the habit of allowing their victims a fighting chance. Geostomp fucked around with this message at 23:49 on Dec 29, 2013 |
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Dec 29, 2013 23:44
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Didn't the Reaper IFF just allow Reapers to override Relays anyways?
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Dec 29, 2013 23:46
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Milky Moor posted:Didn't the Reaper IFF just allow Reapers to override Relays anyways? No, the whole point of stealing one of those was so that you could trick the omega relay into thinking you were friendly so it would send you to the collector base instead of into a star or an ambush something.
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Dec 29, 2013 23:50
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Basically, if they could control all relays like that, Sovereign wouldn't have needed to sneak Saren in via the Conduit. Saren's the one that shut the relay network down to isolate the Citadel. I still wish they had found an interesting way to factor the Conduit into ME3.
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Dec 29, 2013 23:54
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Geostomp posted:This is part of why ME3 bugs me: the writers had so many potential outs, but just bulled on putting themselves into a corner by dropping all of it so the Reapers were so invincible that they needed the massive cop-out of the Crucible's mystery magic to end things. It's like they had to try to make things go so wrong. If they had just kept their numbers low instead of going right to silly-land, things could've ended up a lot better narratively.
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Dec 29, 2013 23:55
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Geostomp posted:That's why Rannoch bugged me as well.
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Dec 30, 2013 00:17
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Flagrant Abuse posted:The biggest/earliest place they really hosed up, to me, is the ending cinematic of ME2. After ME1 I was thinking that there were maybe a half-dozen Reapers. After fighting the human Reaper I revised my estimate upward to maybe 20-25, because hey, these aren't exactly the newest kids on the block. Then a few minutes later you beat it and welp, there's about a thousand of them. I think someone counted all the Reapers in that image and came out at about three hundred. Even that number could potentially be defeated, given what the Codex indicates but .quote:No, the whole point of stealing one of those was so that you could trick the omega relay into thinking you were friendly so it would send you to the collector base instead of into a star or an ambush something. Oh, weird. Maybe I've got some wires crossed in my head with Arrival or something.
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Dec 30, 2013 00:26
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And just because I can't resist pointing this out even thought it is ultra-sperg tier of criticism... If the Leviathans can bring down Reapers from orbit, how did Harbinger even proceed with the first cycle of harvesting?
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Dec 30, 2013 00:30
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CaptainCarrot posted:The hell they did. Wrex demanded that all krogan be cured of the genophage before a single one deployed to Palaven. To be fair there is a difference between "gently caress the Turians, We make it right before we help them" and "This would be a great time to start a war with the turians harharhar"
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Dec 30, 2013 00:33
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Milky Moor posted:And just because I can't resist pointing this out even thought it is ultra-sperg tier of criticism... Harbringer didn't harvest the Leviathans, he is the Leviathans.
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Dec 30, 2013 00:46
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Geostomp posted:This is part of why ME3 bugs me: the writers had so many potential outs, but just bulled on putting themselves into a corner by dropping all of it so the Reapers were so invincible that they needed the massive cop-out of the Crucible's mystery magic to end things. It's like they had to try to make things go so wrong. It's not even just the Crucible, they had to do stuff on top of the magic device like make the Reapers not go for the Citadel and shut down the relay network right away. It's like you write a fantasy book with a wizard villain and by the end of the book he is defeated because he just doesn't use his magic powers anymore ... because ... well, just because! Milky Moor posted:If the Leviathans can bring down Reapers from orbit, how did Harbinger even proceed with the first cycle of harvesting? I think Harbinger was created from the harvested Leviathans so he wouldn't be around during the harvesting, but it still begs the question what powerful tools the Catalyst used to harvest a species so powerful they can just magically make giant, gently caress-off starships go down just like that I suppose. Zedd posted:To be fair there is a difference between "gently caress the Turians, We make it right before we help them" and "This would be a great time to start a war with the turians harharhar" As much as I hate the Quarians being so utterly loving lovely and attacking the Geth right at that point in time, I can actually appreciate that conflict somewhat. They're effectively going all-in in the face of the apocalypse. The way they might look at it is that if the Reapers win, they, along with everybody else, will eventually be hosed anyway, so this is as good a time as any to try and take back their home world. Besides, they have a huge bargaining chip, which is having the biggest fleet in the galaxy, so they're somewhat in a position where they can blackmail the council races (or, in the game, effectively Shepard) into either having their backs and helping them with taking back Rannoch, or forfeiting that fleet and manpower for their war effort. It's annoying and makes your blood boil over what a lovely decision it is from your perspective as Shepard, but I thought that was also what made it an interesting conflict in retrospect.
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Dec 30, 2013 00:52
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Burning Mustache posted:It's not even just the Crucible, they had to do stuff on top of the magic device like make the Reapers not go for the Citadel and shut down the relay network right away. It's like you write a fantasy book with a wizard villain and by the end of the book he is defeated because he just doesn't use his magic powers anymore ... because ... well, just because! Burning Mustache posted:I think Harbinger was created from the harvested Leviathans so he wouldn't be around during the harvesting, but it still begs the question what powerful tools the Catalyst used to harvest a species so powerful they can just magically make giant, gently caress-off starships go down just like that I suppose.
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Dec 30, 2013 01:00
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Mass Effect 3 likes to sort of pretend that Mass Effect 1 never happened. It's weird.
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Dec 30, 2013 01:14
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Milky Moor posted:Mass Effect 3 likes to sort of pretend that Mass Effect 1 never happened. It's weird. For a multi-million dollar AAA project the lack of any project planning was in itself was pretty telling. No ending locked down? No broad-strokes plot outline for the entire trilogy? People in major creative/development roles jumping in and out of the project between games?
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Dec 30, 2013 01:21
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MisterBibs posted:Yes, it is worrisome. That's why the Catalyst was designed to not make the choice itself, but to simply provide the choice to do so to someone else.
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Dec 30, 2013 01:44
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Bobby Deluxe posted:I meant in an out of character, player sense. How anyone is expected to read the catalyst's description of the synthesis option and think 'yeah, that sounds fine' is baffling, given what you've just played through. They should of gotten this guy to explain why Synthesis was the best option:  Or maybe this guy: 
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Dec 30, 2013 04:12
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Jerusalem posted:They should of gotten this guy to explain why Synthesis was the best option: No, no, you see, Synthesis is beautiful, so beautiful, almost like a poem really, certainly one of the most meaningful choices in gaming and really the only way this series could have ended.
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Dec 30, 2013 04:26
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Saren wasn't an advocate of Synthesis and it's really weird that people forget that. Neither was the Illusive Man, really, if we're talking about Synthesis as presented in the endings and not just as 'makin' 'em cyborgs'.
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Dec 30, 2013 04:42
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^^^ "The relationship is symbiotic, organic and machine intertwined, a union of flesh and steel, the strengths of both, the weaknesses of neither! I am a vision of the future, Shepard, the evolution of all organic life!" "And again, it's like poetry, it's sort of they rhyme. Every stanza kind of rhymes with the last one... Hopefully it'll work." - Casey Hudson, referring back to Saren and Mass Effect 3's ending.
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Dec 30, 2013 04:43
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Bobby Deluxe posted:I meant in an out of character, player sense. How anyone is expected to read the catalyst's description of the synthesis option and think 'yeah, that sounds fine' is baffling, given what you've just played through. Equating Husks/etc with Synthesis is the same sort of logic that sends Thane into the vents in ME2. Synthesis is about doing something different than the way the Reapers do things currently.
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Dec 30, 2013 04:48
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Milky Moor posted:^^^ "The relationship is symbiotic, organic and machine intertwined, a union of flesh and steel, the strengths of both, the weaknesses of neither! I am a vision of the future, Shepard, the evolution of all organic life!" That's not 'Saren' and he's not talking about 'Synthesis', the concept from Mass Effect 3's ending.
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Dec 30, 2013 04:48
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As if the in-game explanation for it wasn't gobbledygook, anyway.
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Dec 30, 2013 05:12
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Okay? It's pretty simple to understand why it's different from what Sovereign forces Saren to endure, though.
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Dec 30, 2013 05:21
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