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That's pretty much exactly how I felt, that the book was writing around the locations, organizations, and a person we'd meet in ME2 rather than being its own thing. It was a primer for ME2, in other words. Not meant to stand on its own, to supplement the games. I suppose the best way to say it is that they were more stories about the world rather than stories set in the world.
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Dec 31, 2013 02:02
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Sky Shadowing posted:That's pretty much exactly how I felt, that the book was writing around the locations, organizations, and a person we'd meet in ME2 rather than being its own thing. It was a primer for ME2, in other words. Not meant to stand on its own, to supplement the games. That's a really good way of putting it. The other problem with the ME EU as it stands is, just checking out the comics on the ME wiki, Mac Walters writes pretty much everything. And, because of this, characters like TIM, Aria and Kai Leng feature in almost every text - and always significantly. A story about Ashley recounting her fight on Eden Prime? Well, that's actually because Kai Leng arranged for it to happen. Things like that. It's clear that those three are his pet characters and their constant inclusion makes the universe feel small and, strangely enough, like they have more an effect on things than Commander Shepard.
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Dec 31, 2013 02:09
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Lt. Danger posted:Gonna be all contrarian again and say that it is. I know we all make fun of Bioware for heavily mining Joseph Campbell but there's more to the series than goodies and baddies in space. For example, look at the different inspirations for the art direction in each game: ME1 is like Star Trek or Babylon 5, ME2 is like Alien or Blade Runner, and ME3 is like Star Wars or Independence Day. I don't disagree that there's more to it than just goodies and baddies in space. There's cool ideas sprinkled around the main plot, but the core of the series is still basic Bioware 101 aka a chosen one type hero facing off against the ancient evil. Not surprisingly the most interesting parts of the series don't involve that core plot all that much (genophage, the geth, etc).
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Dec 31, 2013 02:13
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Speaking of EU bullshit, anyone remember that lovely iPhone game that introduced Jacob and Miranda? Bioware/EA pitched it by saying "Complete this game and tie it to your EA account and you'll get an awesome reward in Mass Effect 2"! That awesome reward? Jacob tells you about the events of the game. Also, one Salarian sidequest character will also tell you about the game, if you have Jacob in your party when you talk to him.
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Dec 31, 2013 02:26
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Veotax posted:Speaking of EU bullshit, anyone remember that lovely iPhone game that introduced Jacob and Miranda? Bioware/EA pitched it by saying "Complete this game and tie it to your EA account and you'll get an awesome reward in Mass Effect 2"! Galaxy. It was like maybe a half-hour of gametime with a morality system that did nothing. Then they had a twitchy iPhone cover shooter called Infiltrator with a morality system that did nothing. Most of their stuff outside the core trilogy has been low-effort and deeply weird.
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Dec 31, 2013 02:28
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You didn't even need to tie anything to your account, those references to it were in the game anyway.
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Dec 31, 2013 02:29
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Pattonesque posted:Most of their stuff outside the core trilogy has been low-effort and deeply weird.
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Dec 31, 2013 02:41
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MisterBibs posted:"Yay you forced peace onto them at gunpoint, I'm sure nothing will go wrong!"
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Dec 31, 2013 02:41
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Pattonesque posted:Galaxy. It was like maybe a half-hour of gametime with a morality system that did nothing. I was a little disappointed about that. Not because the game was at all good or worth the space on your iPhone, but because that main character could have fleshed out Cerberus as more than just plain mindless bad guys and, more importantly, could have been the much-needed Sentinel squadmate. VVVEdit: Huh. I did not play anywhere near long enough to see that. Geostomp fucked around with this message at 04:37 on Dec 31, 2013 |
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Dec 31, 2013 03:15
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Geostomp posted:I was a little disappointed about that. Not because the game was at all good or worth the space on your iPhone, but because that main character could have fleshed out Cerberus as more than just plain mindless bad guys and, more importantly, could have been the much-needed Sentinel squadmate. Instead, he was a gruff mercenary who fought a 20-foot-tall krogan clone thing
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Dec 31, 2013 03:16
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Geostomp posted:I was a little disappointed about that. Not because the game was at all good or worth the space on your iPhone, but because that main character could have fleshed out Cerberus as more than just plain mindless bad guys and, more importantly, could have been the much-needed Sentinel squadmate.
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Dec 31, 2013 04:36
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Mass Effect the Anime was hilarious because the first scene has some incredibly sexist and borderline homophobic poo poo in it and you expect it to be this way because it's an anime, but nope it was written by just some white nerd.
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Dec 31, 2013 05:05
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Geostomp posted:I was a little disappointed about that. Not because the game was at all good or worth the space on your iPhone, but because that main character could have fleshed out Cerberus as more than just plain mindless bad guys and, more importantly, could have been the much-needed Sentinel squadmate. I played it off and on when I had a free five minutes or so and eventually beat it. It sucked. They released another campaign, with a turian. I didn't play that bit. Pattonesque fucked around with this message at 05:11 on Dec 31, 2013 |
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Dec 31, 2013 05:05
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SubponticatePoster posted:I myself never understood the problem with a happy ending. You do everything right through the whole series, either by being super nice or a super rear end in a top hat and at the end you get to retire with your LI (or harem because Shepard is a slut) with all the Reapers blown up. Don't want a happy ending? Then just do Failshep runs, they're easy enough.  "
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Dec 31, 2013 05:26
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I know the previous two games in this series had fun, exciting climaxes with big explosions and upbeat endings, but you're a foolish baby if you expected the third game to also have that, instead of a subtext
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Dec 31, 2013 06:19
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U.T. Raptor posted:One of the dumbest and most infuriating things in the aftermath of the endings were all the idiots (including, I believe, some reviewers) going "You want a happy ending? What are you, a child? I agree. If you only want a happy ending in your stories, then you're worse than a child.
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Dec 31, 2013 11:42
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There were critics who went too far with that sentiment, just like there were fans or parts of the audience who got really, insanely preoccupied with being emotionally disrupted over why Bioware didn't give them their fairy-tale happy ending fantasy. The blind rhetoric used by both was pretty intolerable.
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Dec 31, 2013 11:50
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orcane posted:Also, people on the internet complain about everything. Goons complain about everything. That's not a good benchmark. Maybe it's because EA shoved the third game down everyone's throats, but when ME3 came out I saw an article on the BBC website about it, I read about it in papers and on non-gaming sites. The Google search interest and Twitter trends alone show that this was a massive deal at the time. You can't say that there will always be complaints, because the sheer volume of complaints and articles about the ending was way, way above the norm in this case.
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Dec 31, 2013 11:57
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Lt. Danger posted:I agree. If you only want a happy ending in your stories, then you're worse than a child. I'd think the Venn diagram of people who want a happy ending in everything and the people who wanted a happy ending as an option in this particular game aren't perfectly overlapping circles. That said I'm not even sure what a happy ending would be in a galaxy that's already seen billions put to the
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Dec 31, 2013 12:33
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Bobby Deluxe posted:Yes, but an astonishing amount of people complained about this, and people who don't normally notice sci-fi RPGs. orcane fucked around with this message at 12:44 on Dec 31, 2013 |
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Dec 31, 2013 12:38
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Fwoderwick posted:I'd think the Venn diagram of people who want a happy ending in everything and the people who wanted a happy ending as an option in this particular game aren't perfectly overlapping circles. KOTOR had a tragic ending where DS Revan dies in Carth's arms in a final act of redemption. Bioware cut it, though. It'd be silly to think that they should have put it back in as an option - and that was a solid ending, creatively speaking. Bioware didn't want a tragic ending in their space opera, and that's fair enough - it is what it is. Bioware also didn't want a perfectly happy ending in their sci-fi epic, and that's also fair enough. It's not even as if it's that sad or complicated!
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Dec 31, 2013 12:49
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Yep, Bioware produced the game (and endings) they wanted with the time, resources and skill they had available. Thread closed.
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Dec 31, 2013 13:21
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Fwoderwick posted:I'd think the Venn diagram of people who want a happy ending in everything and the people who wanted a happy ending as an option in this particular game aren't perfectly overlapping circles. ME3's ending would, at best, involve billions horribly killed (including at least a few of Shepard's crew members), planets burned (including Earth), intelligent species nearly wiped out, and the entire civilization in shambles. Yet, somehow, that is still not tragic enough for some unless Shepard dies and forces some ridiculous magical change on everyone in a hamfisted semi-religious metaphor. Accomplishing your goal at great cost and picking up the pieces over the following centuries is just too happy. Guess those "mature" gamers just know better about writing stories than I do.
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Dec 31, 2013 15:50
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I too was devastated hearing about the death of unnamed Turian #1382 on Palaven. Almost stopped playing right there.
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Dec 31, 2013 16:01
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Fwoderwick posted:Yep, Bioware produced the game (and endings) they wanted with the time, resources and skill they had available. Thread closed. You'd be surprised how few people agree with this! quote:ME3's ending would, at best, involve billions horribly killed (including at least a few of Shepard's crew members), planets burned (including Earth), intelligent species nearly wiped out, and the entire civilization in shambles. Yet, somehow, that is still not tragic enough for some unless Shepard dies and forces some ridiculous magical change on everyone in a hamfisted semi-religious metaphor. Has anyone actually asked for ME3 to be made more tragic? I think people have only said "tonally it fits just fine with the rest of the series," which it does, and "you'd lose something by not having Shepard (appear to) die," which you would. ME3 is actually quite upbeat. Death is ended! Millennia of genocide, both avenged and averted! A future that belongs to us! What more could you possibly ask?
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Dec 31, 2013 16:09
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I think terms like happy/tragic end up getting merged in with good writing/bad writing, or possibly more like 'deep ending' and 'straight forward ending'. Personally I think if you can't finish something with a genuinely thought provoking ending (let alone 3), then you're better off with a hollywood triumphant overcome the odds ending. As Geostomp just outlined, it wouldn't even be a magical fairy happy ending as the galaxy has been decimated, I bet you could even have Shepherd heroically die in battle and more people would accept it over 20 minutes of fairly leftfield synthetic chat and 3 possible futures you've not been remotely briefed on beforehand. But as has been said before, Bioware were pushing new ground with this series, trying to drag a cohesive narrative across 6 years and 100 hours of gameplay. It's a hell of a lot easier to sell a concept and get your themes across to people in 2 hours of tightly focused film than it is when broken up by hours of alienshoots and fetch quests. This wasn't exactly a well trodden path and in that respect it'll be an important stepping stone, failings and all. I would just selfishly prefer it if this had happened in someone else's epic videogame saga they'd sank days of time in to and not mine.
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Dec 31, 2013 16:47
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Lt. Danger posted:Has anyone actually asked for ME3 to be made more tragic? I think people have only said "tonally it fits just fine with the rest of the series," which it does, and "you'd lose something by not having Shepard (appear to) die," which you would.
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Dec 31, 2013 16:55
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I'm... not sure how the countless genocides are "avenged". No matter how good you think Synthesis is, an inconceivable amount of people suffered horribly for it, in ways far too cruel - seriously, melting people alive and conscious to make a giant ship's core drive is hosed up. Then again the whole idea of that ending reeks of "forced enlightenment" to me anyway, so we clearly took the meaning of Synthesis differently.
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Dec 31, 2013 16:55
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Fwoderwick posted:Personally I think if you can't finish something with a genuinely thought provoking ending (let alone 3), then you're better off with a hollywood triumphant overcome the odds ending. Fair enough. Again, though, I'm gonna have to disagree and say that to me, a creative risk is always more interesting than a by-the-numbers trope, even if the risk doesn't pay off. Like, ME2 had a great ending that everyone likes, so the only thing we can ever get from it is "yup, that's certainly a great ending." A cool chase, a big explosion, Shepard runs a lot... yeah. ME3 is divisive and is more... difficult as a work, but I think it has more value than ME2 as a cultural artefact. And I loving love ME2.
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Dec 31, 2013 18:02
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I didn't expect or really want a happy ending, I suppose I wanted bittersweet. I wanted Shepard to live, but I was fully prepared to be selfish for that outcome. Like the end of Dragon Age, where the only way for your character to live is to either send Alistair/Loghain to their death or sleep with the witch whose name inexplicably escapes me right now. I suppose with destroy I got that, I just didn't expect there to be so much... collateral damage.
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Dec 31, 2013 18:31
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I was thinking about the first game's ending and it would have been cool if Sovereign had succeeded. Then the Reapers enter, but over the last however many millennia divisions had formed between them and different camps of Reapers emerge - some hellbent on repeating the cycles, some attempting to stop it, some wanting to gently caress off and do whatever. Spend Mass Effect 2 trying to stop the main group of Reapers who are attempting to reactivate the Collectors while trying to forge an alliance with one of the breakaway groups. Spend Mass Effect 3 fighting the bads.
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Dec 31, 2013 23:30
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Similar to Iseeyouseemeseeyou, In the lead up to ME3, I thought you'd get the chance to talk to a few more Reapers. Like, sure, Harbinger is obviously big on the idea of keeping the cycle going, but it'd be fascinating if there were some Reapers who - upon seeing their brethren getting blown up and this Cycle being a bloody slog - might've said 'Hey, you know what, Shepard? We don't want to die and have all our culture and knowledge go extinct, so, you don't mind if we gently caress off back to dark space, right? Or we'll help you fight Harbinger and then we can go?'
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Dec 31, 2013 23:48
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I don't have anything specific in mind, but I agree that it would've been cool to see some change of behavior after Tuchanka that illustrates the concept that virtually-immortal beings are actually way more afraid of death than mortal beings.
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Dec 31, 2013 23:52
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Milky Moor posted:Similar to Iseeyouseemeseeyou, In the lead up to ME3, I thought you'd get the chance to talk to a few more Reapers. Like, sure, Harbinger is obviously big on the idea of keeping the cycle going, but it'd be fascinating if there were some Reapers who - upon seeing their brethren getting blown up and this Cycle being a bloody slog - might've said 'Hey, you know what, Shepard? We don't want to die and have all our culture and knowledge go extinct, so, you don't mind if we gently caress off back to dark space, right? Or we'll help you fight Harbinger and then we can go?' I thought we'd face one named Reaper for each "Hub" -- so, one for the Tuchanka segment, one for Rannoch, etc. Nope, only Sovereign and Harbinger get names. Oh well.
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Jan 1, 2014 00:26
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Dan Didio posted:There were critics who went too far with that sentiment, just like there were fans or parts of the audience who got really, insanely preoccupied with being emotionally disrupted over why Bioware didn't give them their fairy-tale happy ending fantasy. The blind rhetoric used by both was pretty intolerable. This was my overall feeling at the time. I just didn't understand why it was such a big deal to peopee. It had a bad ending. Some people said that ruined all three games, and now they were a waste of time. I just can't wrap my brain around 5 minutes making the 1st and 2nd games a waste.
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Jan 1, 2014 01:35
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Spikeguy posted:This was my overall feeling at the time. I just didn't understand why it was such a big deal to peopee. It had a bad ending. Some people said that ruined all three games, and now they were a waste of time. I just can't wrap my brain around 5 minutes making the 1st and 2nd games a waste.
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Jan 1, 2014 01:44
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Nihilarian posted:It's mainly the people who were in it more for the story than the gameplay. And you know what, I loved the storyline. I'm the kind of guy who gets into companion development and romances. Just what I like. To me, any problems I had with the ending were fixed with Citadel. New question: Do you think we'll ever stop talking about the ending of ME3? What did people take away the most from ME1? ME2?
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Jan 1, 2014 02:00
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Spikeguy posted:This was my overall feeling at the time. I just didn't understand why it was such a big deal to peopee. It had a bad ending. Some people said that ruined all three games, and now they were a waste of time. I just can't wrap my brain around 5 minutes making the 1st and 2nd games a waste. Yeah, this. I know that the story is important and I agree that Bioware botched the endings, but the criticism went a bit too far, and I just don't understand how a bad ending retroactively destroys all the fun you had with the ME series. There are book series where I was hugely upset with later novels, but I just trashed the offending books and declared them non-canon. Now I can happily reread the series without the later books spoiling the good first parts of the series for me.
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Jan 1, 2014 02:17
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Some people are just overdramatic about stuff. I don't care about the crappy ending, the games are still good.
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Jan 1, 2014 02:25
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Torrannor posted:Yeah, this. I know that the story is important and I agree that Bioware botched the endings, but the criticism went a bit too far, and I just don't understand how a bad ending retroactively destroys all the fun you had with the ME series. There are book series where I was hugely upset with later novels, but I just trashed the offending books and declared them non-canon. Now I can happily reread the series without the later books spoiling the good first parts of the series for me. But I haven't felt any desire to return, either.
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Jan 1, 2014 02:29
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