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Really, the main thing turning me off to SDR2 as a DR1 fan is the stretching of suspension of disbelief. Like Slowbeef said, DR1 had some over-the-top elements but they were usually just there to be stylistic. You could have replaced all of the death scenes with a trap door opening underneath the guilty person's podium, and then replaced Monobear with a mysterious person in a coat whose face and body you can't see, and it'd still more or less make the same amount of sense - it was fairly realistic at its core. Here you've got giant robots, dudes surviving bazookas to the chest, and mysterious disease outta nowhere, and these are all major plot elements rather than things done just to be stylish. It's just such a drastic change from DR1, it really has killed some of my engagement for the story. But of course, I'll still read every update immediately upon it being posted.
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Jan 3, 2014 02:05
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From where I stand, the tonal shift seems more a product of the environment than it does the characters themselves. The environment in DR1 was a lot more grim, what with doors and windows visibly bolted shut and blocked by metal plating. The only obvious way out was a secure vault door guarded by two ceiling-mounted machine guns. There were obvious signs that the school has been tampered with and that someone was watching you, the least of which being the third machine gun mounted over the girl's locker room to speak nothing about the visible cameras throughout the game. It was immediately obvious that it was not just Monobear but the environment itself that was hostile, and you were locked inside with no way to escape, much less get a glimpse at the sky or the outside. By contrast, SDR2 takes place on a sunny island where the sky is clearly bright and visible, and the only indication something is even wrong at all is the massive probably-a-bomb-of-sorts in the park. Cameras are referenced in dialogue but they aren't visible. Barring the ornamented gates at the island chain's junction, you are free to go wherever pleases you. With a few exceptions, everything is clean, neat, tidy, and comfortable. DR1's environment created an atmosphere of implicit mystery by itself; what's behind that boarded-up window? Why can't we go into the cafeteria at night? What happens there? It feels more like a prison and the tension is obvious. SDR2's environment creates an atmosphere of sloth and vice. To be honest, I am a little surprised that the killings are going at the pace they are; why bother killing people to get off the island when you have resort-level accommodations and seaside property that would cost a fortune all to yourself? Hell, throw in an internet connection and I might seriously consider risking death-by-teenager to live there. Other than Monobear's motivations and the doom robots we've seen all of twice, there's really nothing creating any tension at all. Another contrasting point is Monobear himself. In DR1, Monobear offered an alternative to the mutual killings several times throughout the game; all you have to do is resign yourself to living there in the boarded up school, and you won't have to harm a fly. Unless my memory is off, Monobear doesn't mention any kind of alternative to the SDR2 cast, and in addition to that reveals a probably-a-bomb-of-sorts in the middle of the park. I am not yet sure what to make of this but I find it is an interesting shift in Monobear's own motive this time around. Lastly it may just be my own impression, but with the exception of this current chapter, Monobear seems less overall threatening in SDR2 than in DR1. DR1 Monobear would pop up fairly frequently outside of motivations or trials to harass or scare the DR1 cast. In SDR2, this role has been inverted and given to Monomi whom right out the gate has been shown to be incompetent and harmless. Outside of trials, or handing out 'motivations', Monobear is basically vacant. Lastly lastly, Monomi is probably my least favorite character in SDR2, and I believe the game would have been better without her. Facetious Jim fucked around with this message at 02:20 on Jan 3, 2014 |
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Jan 3, 2014 02:15
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About Gundam, there was a good post over in the Hatoful Boyfriend thread regarding his entire character archetype.
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Jan 3, 2014 02:38
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Slowbeef posted:Yeah, yeah, I mean to each their own. But to underscore, the point I'm making isn't "DR1 > SDR2," it's: "Super Dangan Ronpa 2 is turning off a bunch of Dangan Ronpa fans and I think this is why." I think Dangan Ronpa Fans are the biggest turn-offs for Dangan Ronpa fans.
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Jan 3, 2014 02:43
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CodfishCartographer posted:Really, the main thing turning me off to SDR2 as a DR1 fan is the stretching of suspension of disbelief. Like Slowbeef said, DR1 had some over-the-top elements but they were usually just there to be stylistic. You could have replaced all of the death scenes with a trap door opening underneath the guilty person's podium, and then replaced Monobear with a mysterious person in a coat whose face and body you can't see, and it'd still more or less make the same amount of sense - it was fairly realistic at its core. Here you've got giant robots, dudes surviving bazookas to the chest, and mysterious disease outta nowhere, and these are all major plot elements rather than things done just to be stylish. It's just such a drastic change from DR1, it really has killed some of my engagement for the story. Fukawa/Genocider Syo survived an explosion point-blank that incinerated the top half of a corpse and flung her several feet into the air with nary a scratch on her. I don't think Nidai (barely) surviving a rocket to the chest is too far fetched considering that. I also disagree about the death scenes. Monobear turned Corncob into butter, and I don't think I need to elaborate too much on what was wrong with Junko's execution. SDR2 comes off a bit sillier to me, but I guess the problem most people are expressing with it comes down to stylistic choice. DR1 certainly dressed the events in the game better; the sillier parts of DR1 comes off more realistic than the more mundane parts of SDR2.
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Jan 3, 2014 02:44
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GrizzlyCow posted:Fukawa/Genocider Syo survived an explosion point-blank that incinerated the top half of a corpse and flung her several feet into the air with nary a scratch on her. Pretty much everyone agreed that was really loving stupid when it turned out she survived in DR1, too. slowbeef fucked around with this message at 02:49 on Jan 3, 2014 |
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Jan 3, 2014 02:47
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Slowbeef posted:Yeah, yeah, I mean to each their own. But to underscore, the point I'm making isn't "DR1 > SDR2," it's: "Super Dangan Ronpa 2 is turning off a bunch of Dangan Ronpa fans and I think this is why." This I can get behind.
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Jan 3, 2014 02:55
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CodfishCartographer posted:Really, the main thing turning me off to SDR2 as a DR1 fan is the stretching of suspension of disbelief. I think it's also exacerbated by having a non-trivial amount of time between updates; Five days of waiting for another fourteen minutes of gameplay is just more time to consider crazy stuff crazy. Where you could say "Psh, he survived the explosion, no way. That's so unbelievable. Oh, look some more stuff is happening," instead you can't move on until oren and Fedule show up again with another present. (Which isn't a criticism; they do have to translate and transcribe tons of poo poo, and I think it's drat good that they do.)
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Jan 3, 2014 03:21
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Prism Mirror Lens posted:There was way too much saccharine anime crap about friendship and loyalty and femininity in the main plot and the free time segments, and I just ended up not giving much of a drat about any of them. Too much femininity in the main plot? Are you talking about Sakura?
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Jan 3, 2014 03:41
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Slowbeef posted:Yeah, yeah, I mean to each their own. But to underscore, the point I'm making isn't "DR1 > SDR2," it's: "Super Dangan Ronpa 2 is turning off a bunch of Dangan Ronpa fans and I think this is why." I'm not thrilled with SDR2 so far but I recently got finished playing through DR1 for a review thing and it's really a really cartoony and silly game. The characters are inanely exaggerated for the most part. I think it eased you into the silliness a bit better but it was shameless about it's silliness, right down to having a character yell about how he was less silly in earlier chapters because his personality hadn't been fully defined yet. Upon actually playing it myself it felt like Phoenix Wright or Ghost Trick to me. occasionally delving into gruesome or terrible things but doing so in a ridiculous cartoony way. What turns me off about SDR2 so far is that I just don't really like the characters much. They're mostly pretty boring or flat-out unlikable. I liked the cast for the most part in DR1 but in DR2 so far I... think Sonia is amusing? And Hinata is less boring than Nagei? That's about it. It also doesn't help that we know what the deal is with the world now and so there is fairly little mystery there. (And I think that is what sparks a lot of the "it's probably VR" discussion.) The game is also a bit worse about giving clues out, I've noticed. The first game provided dripfeeds of hints on a near-regular basis. There just seems to be a lot less in DR2 and what few hints we've gotten are really suggesting that it's either some kind of VR/simulation/whatever or something insane like time travel/being kidnapped by aliens/whatever sort of thing. Either way there's relatively little in the way of development for the world and so the characters have to carry it a lot harder, but they're really not pulling their weight. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 04:03 on Jan 3, 2014 |
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Jan 3, 2014 03:52
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Bifauxnen posted:Too much femininity in the main plot? Are you talking about Sakura? My guess is they mean Chihiro.
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Jan 3, 2014 05:06
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CandyCrazy posted:The weird thing is he didn't start out that way. Originally, he was mainly just laid-back, but also really quick to panic. It wasn't until just before Koizumi's death that he started acting like that, and he dropped it pretty quickly because there was a murder. Come this chapter and now he's pushing the "Hanamura 2.0" schtick really hard. what if souda has despair fever too and it's "i am going to disassemble a girl, reassemble a girl into a car, and then kiss her" fever aka weird pervert guy here's a lovely mspaint comic to make up for how contentless my post must seem: 
pidgeon fucked around with this message at 07:11 on Jan 3, 2014 |
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Jan 3, 2014 06:31
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DR1 really does have a lot of silly stuff about it, it's just more in your face in DR2. The games have their ups and downs, but so far I'm enjoying the ride.
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Jan 3, 2014 06:38
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From to  Look how far he's come.
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Jan 3, 2014 07:45
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Slowbeef posted:Some of the crazier stuff in DR1 you can chalk up to stylistic choices. Monobear probably doesn't really have the resources to drop a fire truck on someone or make spikes appear from seemingly nowhere, but you forgive it because it's not important to the story. Here, though, possibly major plot elements involve how a chicken transmogrifies into a cow, how a magical stick's destruction precludes escape, and a magic disease that changes your personality. (note: I could be wrong on this being important, I'm just saying it seems so) A lot of the absurdity of Monobear/the island goes away if one assumes the virtual reality hypothesis. I’ve been a fan of this hypothesis from the beginning, but I favour it more every time something ridiculous happens.
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Jan 3, 2014 07:49
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orenronen posted:
Sainoji's taking steps forward, too. She suggested the quarantine to protect all of them, confirms it, and then takes a step towards solving a different problem to further assist the group.
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Jan 3, 2014 08:51
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If this fever can't be cured, we have to make sure it doesn't spread. Don't tell me you're so thick you don't even get that.
S...Still... Quarantine? That's a little too harsh, isn't it...?
Oh, right. We have to think of a way to communicate. We can't meet face to face or the fever will spread.
I guess it's your turn to shine, big bro Souda.
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Platystemon posted:A lot of the absurdity of Monobear/the island goes away if one assumes the virtual reality hypothesis. If this game ends like Harvester, I don't think I'll be able to deal with it.
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Jan 3, 2014 10:38
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Bifauxnen posted:Too much femininity in the main plot? Are you talking about Sakura? Not too much femininity in the plot (in fact I don't know... what that sentence would mean), but way too many dumb stereotyped 'truths' about it in dialogue. In retrospect I should have just said gender roles in general - you had Chihiro and Sakura wibbling on about how they had to compensate for/exaggerate their femininity, but also Oowari and Ishimaru doing their MANLY MANFRIENDS act, and I didn't find any of it enjoyable to read. Maybe that stuff looked less dumb in Japan because their ideas of gender roles are different, but I dunno it was just all a bit embarrassing and felt really outdated and anime-y. DR2 has not been like this yet!
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Jan 3, 2014 11:34
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Prism Mirror Lens posted:things Right...because gender roles and sexism don't exist outside of Japan. Those silly women always wibbling on about rights and being treated equal and all that. What a bunch of nonsense! CaptainFish posted:If this game ends like Harvester, I don't think I'll be able to deal with it.  You'll ask your dad about that meat for me, won't you Hinata?
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Jan 3, 2014 12:13
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EdgeryWorthy posted:Right...because gender roles and sexism don't exist outside of Japan. Those silly women always wibbling on about rights and being treated equal and all that. What a bunch of nonsense! That's the complete opposite of what I said though?? Neither 'femininity' plot line (Sakura and Chihiro) was about being treated equally to men. Both started from the position of 'women are weak' - therefore Sakura thought she had to overcompensate with her physical strength, and Chihiro wanted to present as female to avoid having to have responsibility and strength. None of the other characters ever pointed out how dumb either of those ideas were. Meanwhile the bits about masculinity started from the position that men are super awesome and strong and always keep their promises and poo poo like that. While western media aren't great about sexism, I'm pretty sure even they'd balk at writing something like Chihiro's plotline, so I can only imagine there's a different level of acceptablity for that kind of thing in Japan.
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Jan 3, 2014 13:15
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Seriously Safe posted:From ...I do find it somewhat unsettling how he has the exact same creepy smirk in both instances, though.
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Jan 3, 2014 14:21
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geri_khan posted:About Gundam, there was a good post over in the Hatoful Boyfriend thread regarding his entire character archetype. Yes. I've actually been starting to wonder if there's not a tiny bit of reference to Anghel. I mean, they're both definitely chuuni as gently caress, so it's likely to be a coincidence, but the Demon King/Ruler of Ice lines in this last update rang oddly specific to me.
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Jan 3, 2014 14:51
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Prism Mirror Lens posted:That's the complete opposite of what I said though?? Neither 'femininity' plot line (Sakura and Chihiro) was about being treated equally to men. Both started from the position of 'women are weak' - therefore Sakura thought she had to overcompensate with her physical strength, and Chihiro wanted to present as female to avoid having to have responsibility and strength. None of the other characters ever pointed out how dumb either of those ideas were. Naegi points out exactly that during Sakura's free time events - that she doesn't have to choose between being strong and being a woman. There's also a similar message in Asahina's final free time event - Naegi tells her that she doesn't have to act out some kind of traditionally feminine role, that he likes her exactly the way she is. quote:Meanwhile the bits about masculinity started from the position that men are super awesome and strong and always keep their promises and poo poo like that. I would argue that Mondo's entire arc is basically intended to subvert this concept - he presents himself as the sort of "man's man" you described, but in the end, he's the one who ends up being weak and breaking his promise. I do agree, though, that Chihiro's whole backstory did lean a bit heavily on the "woman = not strong enough to be a man" trope.
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Jan 3, 2014 15:52
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I think that for me, a lot of my enjoyment of SDR2 will hang on the resolution of the coming case. If the resolution is something akin to what many posters proposed - e.g. someone uninfected murdering someone infected "because I don't want to catch the deus-ex-machina disease!" - I'll be satisfied. However, if the resolution is "X did it because they caught the deus-ex-machina disease!," I probably won't. I'll probably feel cheated by the game to some extent, instead.
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Jan 3, 2014 17:18
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Overflight posted:...I do find it somewhat unsettling how he has the exact same creepy smirk in both instances, though. The eye patch at least makes it look less creepy.
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Jan 3, 2014 17:31
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DaveWoo posted:I do agree, though, that Chihiro's whole backstory did lean a bit heavily on the "woman = not strong enough to be a man" trope. I'm pretty sure that was intentional, what with everyone's reaction to his gender reveal, and the fact that Chihiro seemed to be abandoning that mindset and growing out of it, right up until he was murdered. It helped show the parallel between his situation and Mondo's.
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Jan 3, 2014 18:20
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skepsipol posted:I'm pretty sure that was intentional, what with everyone's reaction to his gender reveal, and the fact that Chihiro seemed to be abandoning that mindset and growing out of it, right up until he was murdered. I think what the poster is saying (and I agree) is that the solution seemed to be that he would become stronger and in doing so embrace his masculinity, which by necessity implies that he couldn't be strong as a woman. I think the Sakura and Aoi story arcs cancel that out, though.
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Jan 3, 2014 18:44
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Prism Mirror Lens posted:Not too much femininity in the plot (in fact I don't know... what that sentence would mean), but way too many dumb stereotyped 'truths' about it in dialogue. In retrospect I should have just said gender roles in general - you had Chihiro and Sakura wibbling on about how they had to compensate for/exaggerate their femininity, but also Oowari and Ishimaru doing their MANLY MANFRIENDS act, and I didn't find any of it enjoyable to read. Maybe that stuff looked less dumb in Japan because their ideas of gender roles are different, but I dunno it was just all a bit embarrassing and felt really outdated and anime-y. DR2 has not been like this yet! Girl's showers have locks. Boy's showers don't have locks? Why? Because sexist plot holes. That's why!
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Jan 3, 2014 20:28
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DaveWoo posted:Naegi points out exactly that during Sakura's free time events - that she doesn't have to choose between being strong and being a woman. Yes, but understand Naegi is pretty much the nicest, most non-judgmental kid on the planet. In an actual high school scenario, any girl who even looked/acted remotely like Sakura (obviously she is extremely exaggerated and anime, but if you can imagine a more "realistic" version of her) would be brutally made fun of by guys and girls alike. And that treatment does carry over later in life. Same way with Chihiro. In real life I doubt anyone would start crossdressing just to avoid bullying and the expectations of a man being "manly" but if you've ever listened to two guys in high school insult each other chances are they're using an insult that's challenging their masculinity. Mondo and Chihiro's story is pretty simple but it's the probably the best in the series up to this point. Despite how they look and act, Chihiro was the one brave or "man" enough to reveal their secret.
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Jan 3, 2014 21:12
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[redacted]
Skunkrocker fucked around with this message at 09:10 on Feb 18, 2014 |
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Jan 3, 2014 22:13
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As another line of discussion, one thing I've noticed is that so far we haven't yet seen much in the way of pushback against Monobear's plans. Aside from Akane challenging the bear head-on, but a frontal assault was pretty much doomed from the get-go. Otherwise, the bear's been running rampant, pushing forward his despair plans with little resistance. We don't really have anything like Alter Ego that could tip the balance in the students' favor. There's Monomi, but Monobear has been doing everything in his power to poison the well, such as claiming that she was the one who erased the students' memories. Furthermore, since it's difficult to tell whether the bear is telling half-truths or whole lies, it's still up in the air as to whether Monomi can be trusted. But in the chapters to come, the students might not have much choice in the matter. Even if something has happened to the outside world in the missing two years, anything's got to be better than staying on this island with a psycho who infects his victims with random diseases. But is Monomi actually capable of doing anything to help the students besides asking them very nicely to please stop killing each other? Maybe she'd be able to override the password to let us into the replica school on the second island. Chances are, there's something there that the mastermind doesn't want us poking our noses around in. Or there's something there that Monomi doesn't want us poking our noses around in, and she does have a hidden agenda.
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Jan 3, 2014 23:07
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Granted, We didn't meet Alter Ego until after at least the third trial, right? Considering we're still not even at the third trial yet, I'd assume we're not even halfway through the game yet. still gotta lotta surprises in store, I'm sure.
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Jan 3, 2014 23:22
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We knew about Alter Ego in at least chapter 2, since Chihiro programmed it before his death. And Celes takes it before chapter 3's murder to get Yamada to do what she wants. VVV I'm also pretty sure that if anyone were to make fun of Sakura to the point of angering her she'd just kick their spine in half. curiousTerminal fucked around with this message at 23:56 on Jan 3, 2014 |
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Jan 3, 2014 23:47
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EdgeryWorthy posted:In an actual high school scenario, any girl who even looked/acted remotely like Sakura. . . would be brutally made fun of by guys and girls alike. And that treatment does carry over later in life. I gotta say, this makes it sounds like you only know assholes. Sakura's cool, and all the cool kids would know how cool she was.
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Jan 3, 2014 23:48
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meristem posted:I think that for me, a lot of my enjoyment of SDR2 will hang on the resolution of the coming case. I think the only time monobear's motives directly resulted in "I'm going to commit murder for this" was Celes wanting money in DR1. His motives are always attribute to the crime, but usually there's something else going on alongside that. I'm pretty sure the culprit, or at least the mastermind of the crime, would be a sane person. zetsubous posted:I think what the poster is saying (and I agree) is that the solution seemed to be that he would become stronger and in doing so embrace his masculinity, which by necessity implies that he couldn't be strong as a woman. I think the Sakura and Aoi story arcs cancel that out, though. Joenen fucked around with this message at 00:10 on Jan 4, 2014 |
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Jan 3, 2014 23:59
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CodfishCartographer posted:Granted, We didn't meet Alter Ego until after at least the third trial, right? Considering we're still not even at the third trial yet, I'd assume we're not even halfway through the game yet. still gotta lotta surprises in store, I'm sure. curiousTerminal posted:We knew about Alter Ego in at least chapter 2, since Chihiro programmed it before his death. And Celes takes it before chapter 3's murder to get Yamada to do what she wants. There was a reference to Chihiro making an AI in his free time events, but we actually met Alter Ego at the start of Chapter 3. Aoi thought she saw Chihiro's ghost in a locker, then they found the laptop in there the next day.
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Jan 4, 2014 00:04
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Wyvernil posted:As another line of discussion, one thing I've noticed is that so far we haven't yet seen much in the way of pushback against Monobear's plans. Aside from Akane challenging the bear head-on, but a frontal assault was pretty much doomed from the get-go. Otherwise, the bear's been running rampant, pushing forward his despair plans with little resistance. However, I think its too soon to say what she'll do to even the balance. There has to be some sort of catch. I mean Monobear's much stronger than her and has more influence over the island as things currently stand, but I don't think monomi's side would jsut agree to such one-sided terms. Unless of course, they had no choice in the matter.
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Jan 4, 2014 00:09
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whitehelm posted:There was a reference to Chihiro making an AI in his free time events, but we actually met Alter Ego at the start of Chapter 3. Aoi thought she saw Chihiro's ghost in a locker, then they found the laptop in there the next day. Ah my mistake, I thought we didn't run into alter ego until ch. 4. Then yeah, I could definitely go for some more counter-measures going on.
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Jan 4, 2014 00:10
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thanks for reuploading beautiful ruin, i was getting pissed
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Jan 4, 2014 00:17
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I think one of the big differences from DR 1 is the amount of non-mystery material versus mystery material. Most of what happened in DR 1 either directly concerned the mystery (often in a serious, "Be on the lookout for the clues here, people" kind of way) or offered a small but significant amount of character development to characters who were otherwise fairly flat. In this game, there's a substantial amount of character development going on independently of the mystery. The proportion is substantial enough that I'd bet if you compared the two threads, you'd find a significantly higher amount of mystery-related discussion in the first. DR 1 was a murder-mystery game with other stuff wrapped around it. DR 2 expands the scope of things going on alongside the murder-mystery game. But from a translation-thread perspective, that massively slows down the murder-mystery part where the thread can be trying to solve the crime, and massively expands the amount of idle speculation about characters and setting and where the story is going. The story of DR 1 was entirely about the murder game. The story of SDR 2 looks to be going in several directions. In part, it's the mystery of what's going on here IN RELATION TO DR 1. The amount of meta-content is considerable thus far. Personally, I'm enjoying where things are going, but that's purely out of not expecting this game to be like the last. At the same time, I can see there's a sharp feeling of separation between the matter of each case and the broader plot developments. The higher amount of content also means more updates required to move the game plot to the same place as in DR 1, so everything seems to run at a slower pace with more downtime between mysteries. Those delays also encourage the mind to register these characters as less complex than they actually are. SDR 2 has struck me as pretty subtle in characterization, with a few obvious exceptions, but those subtleties either get blown up to huge proportions by the thread, or end up being glossed over.
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Jan 4, 2014 04:43
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