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Blind Melon posted:There were many lines that I read that had Terry Prachet's sense of humor, but the delivery was entirely lacking in his usual subtlety, usually taking the form of [joke] [reminder that he just told a JOKE]. There were a lot of times it read like a rough draft of Prachet's work. Not to mention the expanded cast of characters that now felt more like Greek gods slumming it with the mortals than human beings. I think that's possibly a result of his editors understandably going a little too easy on his work out of sympathy for his condition now. I'm guessing if we got on our hands on a rough draft of say, The Fifth Elephant,that it would read similarly to his latest works. They're still better than most of the schlock out there though. 
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Jan 3, 2014 07:18
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Hipster Occultist posted:I think that's possibly a result of his editors understandably going a little too easy on his work out of sympathy for his condition now. I really wish people would quit bringing up his Alzheimer's like it's OBVIOUSLY the source of EVERYTHING DIFFERENT about him now, or that he's treated with kid gloves because oh they feel so sorry for him. Creativity isn't frozen when you turn 21, you won't write or paint or play the same thing when you're 30. Or 40, or 50. Growth and development and all that. And I suspect the light editing accusation probably has more to do with extremely prolific writers having more experience than a lot of editors, which is probably a bit intimidating even if it isn't someone fantastically popular. If you just got out of college, are you going to have the balls to go and tell someone how to do the job they've been doing for 30 years? Maybe you would, but you'd be in the minority.
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Jan 3, 2014 19:32
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LooseChanj posted:I really wish people would quit bringing up his Alzheimer's like it's OBVIOUSLY the source of EVERYTHING DIFFERENT about him now, or that he's treated with kid gloves because oh they feel so sorry for him. Creativity isn't frozen when you turn 21, you won't write or paint or play the same thing when you're 30. Or 40, or 50. Growth and development and all that. God, yes. I don't care how much you think that it's a good explanation for why his latest books have been less good; you simply don't know a.) what his mental condition is like, and b.) how his editors are treating him. It's a fine theory but right now it has as much plausibility as just "his writing style has changed a bit over time" until someone who knows him personally comes out and says otherwise.
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Jan 4, 2014 02:57
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Hedrigall posted:Halfway through The Fifth Elephant and I don't know if it's going to be my favorite Discworld book but it may end up my favorite Watch book at the least. Funny you should say that. The Fifth Elephant is incidentally the first book I ever read that I was sad to finish because it was over. Granted, part of that was because it was only the second Discworld book I'd read (after Thief of Time), and so I was left with the impression that all of the books were stand-alones and I'd never see Vimes or the rest of the Watch again. Edit: How are you guys reading Raising Steam anyway? Trying to order it online and everywhere I see says pre-order for mid-March ApathyGifted fucked around with this message at 03:50 on Jan 4, 2014 |
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Jan 4, 2014 03:41
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ApathyGifted posted:Edit: How are you guys reading Raising Steam anyway? Trying to order it online and everywhere I see says pre-order for mid-March It's been out since November in the UK.
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Jan 4, 2014 11:46
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Amazon UK have the Kindle edition of Raising Steam for 99p at the moment.
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Jan 4, 2014 11:55
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ApathyGifted posted:Edit: How are you guys reading Raising Steam anyway? Trying to order it online and everywhere I see says pre-order for mid-March If you've got a kindle change the address on it to a british one and it'll let you buy through amazon.co.uk
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Jan 4, 2014 12:06
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DontMockMySmock posted:God, yes. I don't care how much you think that it's a good explanation for why his latest books have been less good; you simply don't know a.) what his mental condition is like, and b.) how his editors are treating him. It's a fine theory but right now it has as much plausibility as just "his writing style has changed a bit over time" until someone who knows him personally comes out and says otherwise. Wasn't there a TV documentary he was in a while back dealing with it? I vaguely recall him saying that he struggles with his vocabulary now, and that he finds it difficult to remember the words he wants to use, which is why he dictates his novels to someone (cant remember who) to type out? I mean sure you're right no-one knows for sure 100% why his writing style has changed unless they have actually asked him about it, but facts are facts and it's a bit naive to think that when you go from writing a book directly to dictating it to someone else (even ignoring the fact he struggles with remembering words) the writing style is going to change. I suspect that's why things like Siri and stuff always confuse what I'm saying, they are just simulating a human's reaction 
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Jan 5, 2014 03:52
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Kitchner posted:Wasn't there a TV documentary he was in a while back dealing with it? No, Pterry uses Dragon Naturally Speaking to dictate his novels directly onto his computer. He did dictate them to his PA for a short while before discovering it, though. The problem is that he's finding it increasingly hard to read back what he's written, and hence to review it. The change in style is thus more that we're seeing something closer to a first draft.
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Jan 5, 2014 11:47
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People disagree on when exactly it became noticeable (for example, I still like Unseen Academicals's style okay whereas I know a lot of people found it trash, and I've read some folks saying they can see it starting up in Making Money or Thud even) but the fact of the matter is that there's been a now fairly stark downturn in his prose that is more or less correlated with the news of his condition and its advancement. I don't know why any reasonable person wouldn't assume it was causally related, when after the first handful of books his prose and plotting had been rock solid for like 16 years prior to that.
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Jan 5, 2014 19:18
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The recurring thing of something terrible taking over the protagonist's mind, forcing them to either fight it off or kill themselves/be killed by their friends & loved ones started in 2004, for what its worth.
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Jan 5, 2014 19:41
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pseudorandom name posted:The recurring thing of something terrible taking over the protagonist's mind, forcing them to either fight it off or kill themselves/be killed by their friends & loved ones started in 2004, for what its worth. And he was diagnosed in 2006.
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Jan 5, 2014 20:28
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End of 2007, actually.
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Jan 5, 2014 20:39
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pseudorandom name posted:The recurring thing of something terrible taking over the protagonist's mind, forcing them to either fight it off or kill themselves/be killed by their friends & loved ones started in 2004, for what its worth. Is this what we're talking about though? I have zero problems with this plotline occurring in Pratchett when it's written well. E.g. Thud and A Hat Full of Sky.
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Jan 5, 2014 21:47
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pseudorandom name posted:The recurring thing of something terrible taking over the protagonist's mind, forcing them to either fight it off or kill themselves/be killed by their friends & loved ones started in 2004, for what its worth. To be fair terrible (and therefore good) puns were also a recurring theme, I liked them still though.
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Jan 6, 2014 01:30
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PateraOctopus posted:End of 2007, actually. He publicly announced in 2007, we have no idea when he was diagnosed.
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Jan 6, 2014 03:27
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pseudorandom name posted:The recurring thing of something terrible taking over the protagonist's mind, forcing them to either fight it off or kill themselves/be killed by their friends & loved ones started in 2004, for what its worth. "Something is making me do things I wouldn't normally do" is a recurring theme in Discworld. Mort (and later Susan) unwillingly take on part of nature of Death as well as the role. Susan spends a lot of time trying to not be Death. Lords and Ladies, Carpe Jugulum, and Witches Abroad all have villains that get in your head (that's sort of the way Granny Weatherwax stories work). Soul Music and Moving Pictures have "stuff that leaked in" that changes the way people behave. The opera in Maskerade (non magically) makes people act crazy as hell, as does the war in Jingo. Death seems like he wants to be different but can't fight his essential nature, which is kind of a reverse of the whole thing. Elector_Nerdlingen fucked around with this message at 03:54 on Jan 6, 2014 |
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Jan 6, 2014 03:51
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Let's not forget the Gonne and how it changes how you act all the way back in "Guards! Guards!"
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Jan 6, 2014 05:57
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jng2058 posted:Let's not forget the Gonne and how it changes how you act all the way back in "Guards! Guards!"
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Jan 6, 2014 06:29
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jng2058 posted:Let's not forget the Gonne and how it changes how you act all the way back in "Guards! Guards!" I missed that one, and probably a few more. Like I said, it's a recurring theme. And yeah, that's Men At Arms. Although the dragon gets into people's heads in Guards - lots of people don't manage to see it as a giant burning lizard wrecking the city because it's a dragon. The idea of kings is another recurring one. Kings are in people's heads, despite the way A-M doesn't seem to have had a good one in living or undead memory. Oh, and Feet Of Clay is literally about putting ideas into something's head and the terrible results.
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Jan 6, 2014 10:15
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I've been marathoning Discworld over the last two years (almost there, I'm up to Unseen Academicals) and I knew from this thread that something changed towards the end, but didn't know when. I noticed it around Thud/Making Money. There was just too much dialogue I think, with none of that nice Pratchett Narration (TM). Thud and Making Money are still decent, but nowhere as good as previous books. Controversial Opinion Time: I mantain that Colour of Magic/Light Fantastic are actually good books in the series, most people here seem to hate them. Of course better books might come later, but as a starter I really like them. Some of the Discworld cannon is different in those first books, but I see it as an opportunity to see how Discworld (as a world and as a book series) evolves through time. I do need to reread them some time soon so I can see whether I'm talking out of my rear end, also because I plan to gift some Discworld books to a friend soon and the completionist in me would find it hard to buy books from the middle. Also, there are some really bad books in the beginning to compare to: Equal Rites and Sourcery are both pretty bad, even if Equal Rites introduces The Witches.
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Jan 6, 2014 19:31
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pseudorandom name posted:The recurring thing of something terrible taking over the protagonist's mind, forcing them to either fight it off or kill themselves/be killed by their friends & loved ones started in 2004, for what its worth. In the second book in the series Rincewind has to get a spell out of his head and the creatures from the dungeon dimension tries to get out in reality through Tymon's mind.
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Jan 6, 2014 20:34
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Markovnikov posted:I've been marathoning Discworld over the last two years (almost there, I'm up to Unseen Academicals) and I knew from this thread that something changed towards the end, but didn't know when. I noticed it around Thud/Making Money. There was just too much dialogue I think, with none of that nice Pratchett Narration (TM). Thud and Making Money are still decent, but nowhere as good as previous books. CoM and LF are pretty good parodies of fantasy lit, but I don't think they're quite Discworld in the way that Equal Rites was Discworld. They seem more like prototypes, in the way that Strata was the prototype for the series as a whole. In a similar vein, a while back I was thinking about how the series has evolved over time. It looks to me like there's three distinct phases. First we've got early Discworld, which is very much focused on parodying D&D, Tolkien and other such traditional fantasy. That lasts up until Moving Pictures, possibly with Eric as a buffer, where Terry starts introducing concepts from Roundworld but with the status quo maintained at the end of each novel. The high fantasy stays mostly in the Witches books, though they get progressively more 'real world' with each successive one, starting with new world magic and the various fairytale/New Orleans stuff in Witches Abroad, the New Age witches and Verence's attempts at reforms in Lords and Ladies, an almost complete departure from fantasy in Maskerade, and then the Anne Rice vampyres in Carpe Jugulum. Then comes The Fifth Elephant, and I think this is really where modern Discworld begins. The clacks is introduced and doesn't go away, as does every subsequent development in later books. That said, I think the style remains similar to middle Discworld up until Going Postal, though that could be because the chapters are a big departure from previous books. What do you think? Sounds sensible or am I talking out of my arse?
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Jan 7, 2014 02:11
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I think you're broadly right, I think CoM and LF are OK stories, but there's a lot of fleshing out to the disc yet to come (which is to be expected as it's only two novels in and maybe even PTerry didn't think it would last 40 novels!). One the the best examples of this is in (I think) Light Fantastic where there's a disagreement between the Thieves Guild and the Assassins Guild in a pub. In this novel they are very similar to "stereotypical" fantasy thieves/assassins in the way they are basically thugs. When Vetinari is introduced and the Assassins guild is this bizarre gentleman's club + murder with rules and the Thieves Guild is an official city function it starts taking on a much more unique and interesting dimension. I think you're right though, earlier novels introduce roundworld ideas and then mock them, and all the flaws we identify in real life with the concepts/ideas etc are the reason it doesn't take hold (Moving pictures, the gonne etc). However in later novels instead of leaking roundworld concepts into the disc and then getting rid of them, the disc starts mirroring the roundworld permanently (e.g. police officers are called "Sammies" in the same way they are called "Bobbies" in the UK). Raising Steam is a good example of this, in an earlier novel I feel it would have been about someone who got this idea, while Vetinari et al talk about how terrible an idea it is to travel somewhere using an engine that can explode, and it all has disastrous results which are only just averted at the end of the book by a "hero" and city life returns to normal. Instead you have the permanent addition of the train to the Discworld. Going Postal always struck me as a typical discworld novel, I always got the feeling he was trying out the chapters thing just to see if it worked. He used it again in Making Money, but dropped it for Raising Steam.
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Jan 7, 2014 03:06
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Amazing Maurice was the first DW book with chapters though.
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Jan 7, 2014 12:10
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Who's the headless guy on the hardcover of Raising Steam? I thought there was going to be a zombie or something helping Moist, but...
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Jan 7, 2014 12:12
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Mister Roboto posted:Who's the headless guy on the hardcover of Raising Steam? What on earth are you talking about?
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Jan 7, 2014 12:18
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Mister Roboto posted:Who's the headless guy on the hardcover of Raising Steam? Headless guy? The nearest thing I can figure is the shape on the last train, which is a troll, either Detritus or Corporal Bluejohn.
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Jan 7, 2014 12:22
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I suppose I could have worded that better and said "guy whose head appears to have no body." Seriously though, didn't anyone look at the cover?  To the right of Moist(?) appears to be a head just sort of there. Possibly sitting on the ending or maybe flying by after being whacked off. I thought it was just bad perspective in the art and it's supposed to be Simnel on the other side of the engine, but he doesn't even have a neck. Mister Roboto fucked around with this message at 12:52 on Jan 7, 2014 |
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Jan 7, 2014 12:48
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I see a body. To be specific I see part of his back and left shoulder and the top of his left arm.
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Jan 7, 2014 13:00
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Hedrigall posted:I see a body. To be specific I see part of his back and left shoulder and the top of his left arm. Genuinely trying to see it, but I don't see anything you're referring to. Maybe a quick mspaint of what you see as his shoulder? All I see is the engine curve. Edit--Ok, looking at it without color SORT of makes what you see clearer, it's the fact his "arm" is the same color as the engine that makes it odd looking. Especially as the arm is so flat and streamlined and looks like part of the metal. Mister Roboto fucked around with this message at 13:09 on Jan 7, 2014 |
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Jan 7, 2014 13:04
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Mister Roboto posted:Genuinely trying to see it, but I don't see anything you're referring to. Maybe a quick mspaint of what you see as his shoulder? All I see is the engine curve. I dont have MS Paint but here: 
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Jan 7, 2014 13:12
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Now do Nightwatch, Hedrigall.
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Jan 7, 2014 13:53
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Hedrigall posted:I dont have MS Paint but here: Draw more covers please
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Jan 11, 2014 17:14
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You may or may not know that the Goddess of Things Stuck In Kitchen Drawers is called Anoia. Knowing this, you may assume that the name is a pun on "annoyer", it being irritating when you can't open a drawer because something is stuck in it. What you probably didn't know is that the Greek verb for "open" is pronounced "anoigo".
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Jan 14, 2014 13:46
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Hey Goons, I recently just finished re-reading Nation, I'd forgotten how great of a book it is and how much I enjoy it. I haven't read any of his other non-Discworld books though, do you guys recommend any of them in particular? I know one (Dodger?) recently just came out.
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Jan 20, 2014 16:07
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The Johnny books are well worth reading, although very much rooted in early 90s British culture - especially the first one, Only You Can Save Mankind, which is heavily based around computer games and sci-fi films. Also if you haven't read it then Good Omens is great - he wrote it collaboratively with Neil Gaiman and it's about the apocalypse.
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Jan 20, 2014 16:30
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I'll check out the Johnny books, I'd forgotten to mention Good Omens for some reason, but I haven't read that book in years so it may be worth reading again to see what I missed or have forgotten since last time I read it. Thanks mate.
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Jan 20, 2014 17:01
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I read and enjoyed Dodger, and a long time ago I read The Dark Side of the Sun and Strata; I don't really remember much about them. I vaguely remember liking Strata; it's a sort of sci fi take on Discworld written two years before The Colour of Magic. I don't remember The Dark Side of the Sun at all, so it can't have made that much of an impression on me.
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Jan 20, 2014 17:48
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Flipswitch posted:Hey Goons, I recently just finished re-reading Nation, I'd forgotten how great of a book it is and how much I enjoy it. I haven't read any of his other non-Discworld books though, do you guys recommend any of them in particular? I know one (Dodger?) recently just came out. Dodger is okay. I certainly enjoyed it, but it's nothing stellar. I would recommend both "Good Omens" and "the long Earth" though. Just finished the long earth and it reminded me a lot of ring world, while still being unique.
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Jan 21, 2014 19:53
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