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Nika posted:I realize this is what people say, but I'm always confused as to how this became such a hard and fast rule. I mean, every single book I've got on my bookshelf uses words other than "said" for dialogue tags, though it's only a few times every several pages or so. And I sure as hell don't read THAT much YA. Said tags are like adverbs; they are treated as the Devil not because they are intrinsically bad, but because they are so easy to use badly. So the best and safest rule is to say 'don't use one unless the sentence wouldn't work without it'. Once you get used to that as the base rule you can learn for yourself where to break it. quote:'I had a hard time remembering which of these was "correct" until someone pointed out to me that if you replace the proper noun with a pronoun, it becomes immediately obvious which one is right. Eh. Just go with whichever sounds better in the sentence.
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Jan 3, 2014 01:06
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I sim sub all over the place. Just look on Duotrope what kind of response time they have and space them apart. Send to one that responds in 1-5 days (and is a pro market) and to one that responds in 2-3 months and you should be fine. The chances of getting accepted at both are astronomical and if you get accepted in the first one, you should have no problem withdrawing your story from the second one. Definitely don't do it too often though.
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Jan 3, 2014 01:14
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Echo Cian posted:As far as the bolded bit goes, where did you find that one? I found it in an article on fastcocreate.com, in reference to a book I ended up buying (Wonderbook). Wonderbook posted:Jeff Vandermeer's Wonderbook: The Guide to Creating Imaginative Fiction is jammed with storytelling wisdom from some of world's top fantasy writers. Here's some of it. Also has some great illustrations that don't exactly clarify anything, but look great.  And 
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Jan 3, 2014 01:29
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magnificent7 posted:I found it in an article on fastcocreate.com, in reference to a book I ended up buying (Wonderbook). Have you read and enjoyed anything by KSR? (Or Marquez, for that matter?) I don't think that the quality of a writer's advice is always directly proportional to their writing ability, and in any case, KSR is an award winning author with a very strong fan-base. But that said, he writes a very particular type of hard sci-fi. Many people feel that his books are too heavy on exposition and too light on plot. He says that's what most interesting to him is writing about what's not "us," and for him that includes the logistics of mining asteroids, etc. but that's a pretty broad definition of exposition, since it's certainly possible to write about what's "not us" while showing and not telling. Which you would you rather read? A scene where an asteroid mining ship breaks down and the hero has to repair it, or an instruction manual for repairing it? Similarly, Marquez writes absolutely gorgeous books that I wish everyone would read, but not everyone does, mainly because they are incredibly dense and slow to develop (in the most delightful ways.) but if you want to write about.... I believe it was 50-foot spiders, zombies, and parasitic aliens? You might find this advice is not right for you or your market. Finally, KSR does not speak for the entire world of literature, and his description of "show-not-tell" as a zombie rule does not actually make it so. This guideline (not rule) continues to be passed around because showing is important and something many beginning writers need to improve upon. Both telling and showing are important to a story, and using them each judiciously is key. Latching onto "god-is-dead" advice like this can be just as bad for your writing as clinging to the traditional dogma like a fundamentalist.
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Jan 3, 2014 02:13
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The bigger problem though is that a lot of those rules get in the way of a story. People jump on a manuscript, (this goes all the way back to my original point - I was jumping on his MS regarding the aversion to the word "said"... and in the end, the problem was that it's getting in the way of his story, not helping it) is that any of the current writing advice could eventually become outdated. I think attacking every example of "show don't tell" it nit-picking. When it gets in the way of the story, THEN it's obvious that it's in the way. There was a story in the 'Dome this week that was ripped to shreds, citing a lot of the current writing no-no's, but I liked the story... the attacks on the writing were legit, I suppose, but the story didn't suffer because of it. But that's all just my opinion... I'm still trying to find that happy medium between knowing every rule and knowing when breaking those rules will add to the story, instead of getting in the way.
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Jan 3, 2014 02:39
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They are guidelines. Not rules. Regardless of the fact that my day job requires me to consider guidelines as "regulatory compliance" matters, in writing, they should not be treated as such. It is possible to do "show, don't tell" and yet not write well. There are instances where to show too much will kill your pacing, and drag the story to a halt, when all you need to say is a simple line of "he is sick". There are appropriate places to employ "showing" and also areas where they are not necessary at all. If you need to describe a phone shop attendant whose role is just to sell a phone, you don't have to go into massive detail unless (a) he shapes the way your character perceives people; (b) he has a much bigger role to play than selling a phone; or (c) describing him sets the mood of the situation/setting. For example, John Le Carre wrote this to describe an interrogation facility: quote:The gates opened electronically and beyond them lay mounds of clipped grass like mass graves grown over. Olive downs stretched towards the sunset. A mushroom-shaped cloud would have looked entirely natural. If you just go with "tell, don't show", here's how he would have written it: quote:The interrogation facility is very bleak. It is pretty depressing by the way. It's ok to like the "tell" version, but the "show" version shows a better use of the language, and it gives off a much stronger mood than "lol totes emo". That's not to say the story written in the "tell" version can't be enjoyable. It may, however, have room for improvement. Also, if you are using the review by Kim Robinson of Marquez, written in another book, as the reason why you are going to employ "tell don't show", then you would be remiss if you do not actually open 100 Years of Solitude and figure out if that is the style you want to employ. And personally, I have read that book awhile back and I don't ever recall it being "telling not showing". I've just flipped through a few pages this morning, and here are some "show don't tell" I see: quote:The world was so recent that many things lacked names, and in order to indicate them it was necessary to point. If Telling: quote:They lived in the world in its early days. Another "Show": quote:Úrsula lost her patience. “If you have to go crazy, please go crazy all by yourself!” she shouted. “But don’t try to put your gypsy ideas into the heads of the children.” If telling: quote:Ursula was very religious and did not believe in science. It's absolutely fine to break the age old rule of "show don't tell". But in order to break rules, you have to understand them well enough and know the correct way to twist them to your favour, or to find that one perfect loophole to jump through. Breaking without comprehension will just lead to a mess of words being slammed on the keyboard as if you were playing The Typing of the Dead: Overkill. The Saddest Rhino fucked around with this message at 03:35 on Jan 3, 2014 |
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Jan 3, 2014 03:30
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I'd like some advice on writing urban fantasy (not supernatural romance stuff; more like Dresden Files, Iron Druid, or even Percy Jackson, I guess). Is there anything I need to watch out for? Any big things I need to avoid or to put in the story? I'm making a slight homage to the Dresden Files with my novel, though the magic system is different and the locale (Utah) is completely different from the Dresden Files. Also, these opening two paragraphs; bad or decent or worthless worldbuilding? I don't want you to critique the entire story, just this potential opener.quote:Old-timers always say that if you make enough noise, you’ll wake the dead. When you work as an errand boy for an ancient Navajo deity, you learn quickly that those old-timers are absolutely correct. The average person might not notice it, but the dead walk the earth, just like any member of the living. Thing is, normally the dead-that-walk are the civilized types, vampires, your occasional ghost, nothing too monstrous. On special, even holy days like Dia de Muerte, the Day of the Dead, anybody’s body can just start strolling around. Depending on the amount of eldritch mojo present in a grave, sometimes those bodies stretch their legs regardless of the day.
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Jan 3, 2014 05:40
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Gygaxian posted:Words It could be snappier (and shorter). You're info dumping, and not all of it matters. Consider it from your character's point of view, would they think of their boss as "an ancient Navajo deity", or just Coyote? Why translate day of the dead? Most people know what it is, and if they don't they can look it up. quote:Old-timers
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Jan 3, 2014 06:51
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magnificent7 posted:
I think we all are, tbh. Dome style can tend towards the terse, which is at least partly to do with the harsh word limit, but learning to pick words like an old woman picks apples at the market is never a bad thing. Out of interest what was the story? Not to argue with you, but because it might add to the discussion to have a concrete example.
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Jan 3, 2014 07:55
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sebmojo posted:I think we all are, tbh. The one you critted, the cat in the tree and the dog on the ground. I read it, and then read your deconstruction of it. I get it - that's the way of the dome, but felt like you weren't seeing the forest for the trees on a lot of it. Didn't want to really debate it because that's how it goes in there; but it re-affirmed my opinion that maybe I was obsessing over guidelines, more than looking at the story I'm critting for a friend. In the end, it's a little of both. My insistence that he stick to "said/asked" is too much, but it's definitely worth pointing out that his obsession with a thesaurus takes away from the story.
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Jan 3, 2014 08:38
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magnificent7 posted:The one you critted, the cat in the tree and the dog on the ground. I read it, and then read your deconstruction of it. I get it - that's the way of the dome, but felt like you weren't seeing the forest for the trees on a lot of it. Didn't want to really debate it because that's how it goes in there; but it re-affirmed my opinion that maybe I was obsessing over guidelines, more than looking at the story I'm critting for a friend. Mercedes will be pleased  The forest for the trees thing is a risk, for sure; but I tend to find I read the piece, get a feeling whether I liked it or not, then start breaking it down with concrete examples. The risk is that this gives the impression that any given complaint is of equal importance, which of course it isn't. However a story is a prose machine crafted to create an effect. The only way you're gonna get it to work is to make sure the pieces fit together. For instance I think Merc's could have been greatly improved by shifting the punchline (the dog's awesomely OTT name) a couple of sentences down. This would have maintained the tension and made the joke (which was literally the enire point of the story) work. As it was it gambled and lost, which is the risk you take with that kinda story; if you go light you need precision.
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Jan 3, 2014 09:14
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sebmojo posted:Mercedes will be pleased And why the hell am I awake at 3am can't sleep thinking about writing. That's not so bad I suppose.
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Jan 3, 2014 09:17
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ravenkult posted:I sim sub all over the place. Just look on Duotrope what kind of response time they have and space them apart. Send to one that responds in 1-5 days (and is a pro market) and to one that responds in 2-3 months and you should be fine. The chances of getting accepted at both are astronomical and if you get accepted in the first one, you should have no problem withdrawing your story from the second one. And what's your position on multiples? Where they haven't asked you not to, that is.
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Jan 3, 2014 09:29
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magnificent7 posted:And why the hell am I awake at 3am can't sleep thinking about writing. That's not so bad I suppose. You could spend the rest of the night reading Marquez 
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Jan 3, 2014 09:50
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The Saddest Rhino posted:You could spend the rest of the night reading Marquez But what is it.
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Jan 3, 2014 10:07
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magnificent7 posted:What is Marquez and no I need to sleep. Follow the direction of the rolly eyes.
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Jan 3, 2014 10:16
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magnificent7 posted:What is Marquez and no I need to sleep. It's Gabriel Garcia Marquez, the writer of 100 Years of Solitude which you just quoted in your own post about "tell don't show" and I wrote a massive post about above. That above was a prime example of me "showing not telling" you that I think you really need to learn to read. The Saddest Rhino fucked around with this message at 10:23 on Jan 3, 2014 |
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Jan 3, 2014 10:17
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magnificent7 posted:What is Marquez and no I need to sleep. Here. This is Marquez. A nice, short story filled with wonderful. http://salvoblue.homestead.com/wings.html
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Jan 3, 2014 10:30
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G to the G to the muthafuckin M posted:On the third day of rain they had killed so many crabs inside the house that Pelayo had to cross his drenched courtyard and throw them into the sea, because the newborn child had a temperature all night and they thought it was due to the stench. The world had been sad since Tuesday. Sea and sky were a single ash-gray thing and the sands of the beach, which on March nights glimmered like powdered light, had become a stew of mud and rotten shellfish. The light was so weak at noon that when Pelayo was coming back to the house after throwing away the crabs, it was hard for him to see what it was that was moving and groaning in the rear of the courtyard. He had to go very close to see that it was an old man, a very old man, lying face down in the mud, who, in spite of his tremendous efforts, couldn't get up, impeded by his enormous wings. Holy god that is an amazing paragraph. Read it, Mag7. Read it aloud thirty times like a rosary.
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Jan 3, 2014 10:38
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The Saddest Rhino posted:It's Gabriel Garcia Marquez, the writer of 100 Years of Solitude which you just quoted in your own post about "tell don't show" and I wrote a massive post about above.
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Jan 3, 2014 15:25
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"A Very Old Man with Enormous Wings" is one of my all-time favorite short stories. I posted a link to it when we did that Magical Realism prompt a while ago (that nobody really got). I haven't read 100 Years of Solitude - I know, shame shame - so that short is my Marquez exposure.
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Jan 3, 2014 17:01
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Symptomless Coma posted:And what's your position on multiples? Where they haven't asked you not to, that is. Nah, I don't send multiples, even when allowed. I think it gives them the idea you're dumping all your lovely stories on them.
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Jan 3, 2014 18:20
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For me, most places take weeks or months, and usually have a very low acceptance rate. If I write a story that I want to publish, chances are the first place I send it to isn't going to accept it, and neither will the second, third, and so on. Why are these places so special that I should tie my story up for ages waiting to be rejected one by one until I'm finally accepted somewhere? Whoever reads it and likes it first gets to publish it, the rest I'll withdraw it from. edit: Ah, multiples not sim subs. Yeah, that I have yet to do.
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Jan 3, 2014 19:12
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blue squares posted:For me, most places take weeks or months, and usually have a very low acceptance rate. If I write a story that I want to publish, chances are the first place I send it to isn't going to accept it, and neither will the second, third, and so on. Why are these places so special that I should tie my story up for ages waiting to be rejected one by one until I'm finally accepted somewhere? Whoever reads it and likes it first gets to publish it, the rest I'll withdraw it from.  Please don't do this: editors remember all those withdrawals and you'll burn your bridges before you even get to build them. Except at Tor.com, they might deserve it  (I'm joking, High Editor Gorinsky)
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Jan 3, 2014 19:35
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General Battuta posted:
Realistically, I have yet to have to withdraw a single story. Granted, I've only had like 4 acceptances, but still. If you're hitting pro markets, the chances are astronomical. If Clarkesworld takes my story, I'm okay with having to withdraw from say, Analog.
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Jan 3, 2014 19:40
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I sold the last two stories I wrote to Clarkesworld within a week. If I'd sim-subbed to Lightspeed, which has similar response times, there's a very good chance I could've been looking at acceptance letters from both markets one really awkward morning. The chances may be astronomical on aggregate, but if you just look at Really Good Stories - the stories you write that are going to sell - you shouldn't be sim subbing. And since you don't know when you're going to cross from 'this will get 10 rejections' stories into 'everyone will want to buy this', just don't get into the habit of sim subbing. It can only burn you. Of course, I just put blue squares' (anonymized) post to the collective SF/F short fiction editorial world on Twitter and they told me not to bother talking him out of it, so maybe I should stack arms. e: I am probably coming off as a bit of a fascist about this, I apologize. Odds are you are not going to wreck your entire career with a few simsubs. Just, uh, keep it quiet. General Battuta fucked around with this message at 19:58 on Jan 3, 2014 |
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Jan 3, 2014 19:53
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General Battuta posted:I sold the last two stories I wrote to Clarkesworld within a week. Who the gently caress are you?
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Jan 3, 2014 19:58
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I'm sorry, I know that came off really dickish. Edited my post to sound like less of a writer Hitler.
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Jan 3, 2014 19:58
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No, no, I just wanted to know who you are. That's impressive.
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Jan 3, 2014 20:01
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I was super pleased, but it wasn't something I'd expected, and if it ever happens to anyone here it'd be really awkward to have to withdraw on account of prior sale to Lightspeed or another fast-response market. I'm Seth Dickinson, I've sold a handful of short pieces.
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Jan 3, 2014 20:07
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Frankly, I'm shocked at the response I'm getting here. I did some googling on "ethics of simultaneous submissions" and didn't find a whole lot, but here is an article that supports my thinking: http://michaelkardos.files.wordpress.com/2010/05/simultaneoussubmissions.pdf This is the business that I want to be in as a career, so I'm trying to learn from you all. I'm not trying to be obstinate. When I search on duotrope, I check the box that says "sim subs." I read the submission guidelines and follow them. So far I haven't sent any of my work to a market that specifies no sim subs. I feel like I'm following the rules. The short story contest I mentioned also allows sim subs.
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Jan 3, 2014 20:38
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If the market allows sim subs it's okay. Your posts made it seem like you were sim subbing to places that didn't allow it. We're just trying to help you here.
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Jan 3, 2014 20:41
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Yes. That said, you might be missing out on the best markets in your field if you're selecting only for those that take sim subs. What genre are you working in? (Also, I hope someone's made it clear that very few people make a full time living as a writer, and no one as a short story writer - though I suspect you know all this by now.)
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Jan 3, 2014 20:54
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General Battuta posted:
NOOOOoooooooo  I thought with sim-subs, though, which ever publication accepts it first gets it. So if you submit to Analog and Doc Kloc's Science Fiction Mag, and I accept first, you withdraw from Analog. Not string me along for a month waiting to hear back from your preferred market. In which case Blue Squares should withdraw from the contest. (Depending on the specific rules, I guess.) Of course, if it's a tiny magazine you can screw them with few consequences, but you're still screwing them.
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Jan 3, 2014 21:00
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The one I sold wasn't genre, though I have written a little in horror and sci-fi. I'm a beginner in terms of taking writing seriously and actively trying to improve and publish, though I've written off and on for fun for years. When I write something I think is really great, I'll be patient and think hard about the best market for it.
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Jan 3, 2014 21:01
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In general the game with sim-subs is to count on most markets rejecting most submissions. So you submit to Analog and to Doc Kloc's SF Mag, you get an acceptance from Doc Kloc's, and you gamble that you'll get a rejection from Analog in a couple months...or you bite the bullet and withdraw from Analog right then, taking the chance that Mr. Quachri will know (he'll know) what you were up to.
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Jan 3, 2014 21:02
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When Clarkesworld tells me my story was "almost, very close, but not exactly what we're looking for. Please submit again." are they blowing smoke up my rear end or should I send em something else?
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Jan 3, 2014 21:06
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Martello posted:When Clarkesworld tells me my story was "almost, very close, but not exactly what we're looking for. Please submit again." are they blowing smoke up my rear end or should I send em something else? Is that verbatim what they said? That's a high-tier form rejection, maybe even a personal, which are very very rare from Clarkesworld. Someone deliberately chose to send you that instead of their stock form rejection. Absolutely submit there again, you genuinely did get close.
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Jan 3, 2014 21:12
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I paraphrased a bit from memory. The actual text was: Neil Clarke posted:Dear Martello,
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Jan 3, 2014 21:18
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It's a high-tier form rejection, yeah. I couldn't say if it's the highest, but it's a much more positive response than most authors are going to get from them.
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Jan 3, 2014 21:20
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