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Demiurge4 posted:And yet people in this thread are advocating a first strike? I understand that Fascists are likely to use aggression and violence to take power if they feel they have the upper hand. But on the other side we don't have any competent Fascists, anywhere. The Golden Dawn are falling apart, the English Defence League is a joke and there are no significant contenders anywhere because they have all been successfully demonized. What people in this thread are advocating is violence against a bunch of poorly organized and ignorant youths being lorded around by racist old farts. If you're faced with an organization that has as a stated goal to literally murder you and yours for existing and the state isn't doing its duty of dissolving the hell out of it, then it is perfectly justified to employ violence against said organization to disrupt its ability to, you know, murder you and yours for existing. This is self-defense by definition. Arguing otherwise essentially measn that you relegate the targets of fascism to sit and wait until the fash are good and ready to come and stomp on them at a time and place of their choosing. Now, the exact kind of violence employed and if it's a tactically sound move to employ violence in a certain situation is another question, but this shock and horror about them poor widdle fash is outright liberal bullshit, and the liberal can acknowledge a hypothetical right for leftists to engage in self-defense, but curiously they always seem to get mad about leftists actually excercising that right. Also it's really easy to dismiss the threat that fascists pose when you're not among those targeted. We can empirically see that fascism isn't falling apart, and it probably won't do that anytime soon since the material conditions that have given the fascist mvements today their support haven't changed. Leftist and minority activists recieve death threats all the time and there are several cases where they have been assaulted or even murdered for their views. This isn't something that should be swept under the rug and ignored, no matter how much the liberal estblishment wants to blame the victims here. Darth Walrus posted:True, but containment and defence seem to be sufficient direct action at those levels. Fascists are scary in how fast they can escalate, yes, but they need resources and public support to escalate, and those are mighty hard to come by when the society and economy are working OK enough for their brand of alternative not to be appealing (let's be honest, an early-stage fascist party is just a bunch of ridiculous, charmless, racist thugs, and it takes a particular kind of alchemy for them to metamorphose into a proper menace). I think it's important not to run into the very same fascist trap of fetishising violence as a universal solvent. You can't kill fascism by obliterating the gently caress out of a party or three, because you won't be killing the demand, just encouraging others to repackage the same reprehensible poo poo at its core in slightly different labels, symbols, and surface policies. Social and economic reform is the only way to make fascism truly dead (or, because human stupidity is infinite, restricted to one or two nostalgic lunatics). I don't see how anybody is fetishising violence, and most certainly not in the same way as fascism does. See, what people keep missing is that fascism's take on violence is pretty unique among modern political ideologies. Most everybody else accepts violence under certain circumstances, but fascism sees violence as a moral good in itself. So until someone comes out and argues that violence is good by default, the comparison is lazy and dumb.
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Jan 6, 2014 11:41
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Holy poo poo yes. I hate violence and would love to live a life without it but I absolutely refuse to swear it off because it's unfortunately neccessary.
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Jan 6, 2014 11:56
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Cerebral Bore posted:I don't see how anybody is fetishising violence, and most certainly not in the same way as fascism does. See, what people keep missing is that fascism's take on violence is pretty unique among modern political ideologies. Most everybody else accepts violence under certain circumstances, but fascism sees violence as a moral good in itself. To be honest, I have seen a certain amount of that from the more... excitable members of the thread. For instance, Aduck's comment last page wasn't exactly that: Regarde Aduck posted:The problem is if the fascists ever decide to make poo poo get real we'll all be dead before we can take the kid gloves off. That's the problem here. The fascists are the active faction. They initiate and they escalate. You're talking about using peace to combat them in the time that THEY'VE given you. ... but it did carry the heavy implication that unless you're engaging in massive, overwhelming violence against fascists all the time, as opposed to just containment and defence, then they'll overrun you in seconds. Now, there's a decent argument for that when it comes to established monsters like the GD, but when you're talking about tiny clown-parties like the modern BNP and EDL it's kind of silly, and almost starts falling into that ultraviolence-for-ultraviolence's-sake mindset.
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Jan 6, 2014 12:02
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Rutkowski posted:Nazis, in Sweden at least, are not a threat to society as it is. What they are, however, is a threat to minorities and other civilians and that should never be minimized. Does this mean you don't see SD as Nazis? I've been fascinated with the whole phenomenon. Mass immigration causes social tension and the only party that says they'll do something about it is shunned en masse. The rest of the parties are adamant on the "this is the only option" line. It's like they don't understand or care about why Sven Mellansvensson is agitated.
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Jan 6, 2014 15:55
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Hob_Gadling posted:Does this mean you don't see SD as Nazis? I say this without excusing them in any way. My mother and her husband are loyal SD voters and goddamn do I want to strangle them every time I talk to them and they know it. Also, the "old" parties are idiots when it comes to handling the situation. They let SD and their ilk control the debate by arguing on false premises(such as mass immigration actually existing here. It doesn't) and their solutions to what is and have always been social economic issues is by making them worse while blaming non-Europeans and Roma people. And the old parties are not unified in most ways when it comes to immigration. What they are unified in is that SD is wrong and in that way they're right. SD is wrong, very wrong.
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Jan 6, 2014 16:15
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Hob_Gadling posted:Does this mean you don't see SD as Nazis? From a Dutch perspective this is like looking 15 years into the past. Mass immigration is just a far right buzzword though.
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Jan 6, 2014 16:16
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Hob_Gadling posted:Does this mean you don't see SD as Nazis? Sounds exactly like Denmark in the 00's. edit: beaten
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Jan 6, 2014 16:22
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Orange Devil posted:From a Dutch perspective this is like looking 15 years into the past. I've yet to see anyone who says he's never been racist explain that part. Not in media, not in politics, not in private.
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Jan 6, 2014 16:22
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Rutkowski posted:Also, the "old" parties are idiots when it comes to handling the situation. They let SD and their ilk control the debate by arguing on false premises(such as mass immigration actually existing here. It doesn't) and their solutions to what is and have always been social economic issues is by making them worse while blaming non-Europeans and Roma people. What were the alternatives to someone who felt slighted? Whether SD could actually do anything is irrelevant; my point is that to someone who feels immigration is a problem SD seems like the only option (barring maybe some minor openly fascist groups). I guess you can argue that immigration is not a problem and never has been but this is not the perception of SD voters. I think it's pretty fair to say that whoever votes for them votes for this one question alone as their other opinions are a mess. quote:And the old parties are not unified in most ways when it comes to immigration. True, but didn't they agree not to co-operate with SD? Orange Devil posted:Mass immigration is just a far right buzzword though. Fair enough. What's a better term?
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Jan 6, 2014 16:45
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Hob_Gadling posted:Fair enough. What's a better term? Counter-gentrification
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Jan 6, 2014 17:17
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Rutkowski posted:They let SD and their ilk control the debate by arguing on false premises(such as mass immigration actually existing here. It doesn't) and their solutions to what is and have always been social economic issues is by making them worse while blaming non-Europeans and Roma people. But doesn't Sweden have a lot of immigrants, looking at wikipedia it says slightly less than 20% of inhabitants have either born abroad or born by somebody who came from abroad, according to data from 2011. What is it with (seemingly) unrestricted immigration?
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Jan 6, 2014 17:20
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Hob_Gadling posted:What were the alternatives to someone who felt slighted? Whether SD could actually do anything is irrelevant; my point is that to someone who feels immigration is a problem SD seems like the only option (barring maybe some minor openly fascist groups). I guess you can argue that immigration is not a problem and never has been but this is not the perception of SD voters. I think it's pretty fair to say that whoever votes for them votes for this one question alone as their other opinions are a mess. quote:True, but didn't they agree not to co-operate with SD? quote:Fair enough. What's a better term? http://www.migrationsverket.se/Om-M...verige-....html 103 059 people moved to Sweden in 2012, 20 462 were Swedes moving back home. Of the other top ten nations in the first graph is Poland, Denmark, China, Thailand and Finland, none being opposed by SD. The remaining countries are Iraq, Somalia, Syria and Afghanistan, four continued violence hotspots. Then we have 51 747 personer who moved out of Sweden in 2012 of which 38 percent were Swedish citizens. That means we have a + in people living here through immigration and emigration of 51 312. That's 0.5 percent of the entire country. That's not mass immigration. EDIT: here's a source with a pie chart that's interesting. http://www.migrationsinfo.se/migration/sverige/ 23% is EES-certified Right of Residence 17.9% is work immigration 13.6% is asylum seekers 29.9% is relation-immigration and adoptions 7.1% is relation-immigration for those with temporary asylum and asylum-seekers The pie chart to the right of it is students(number is not displayed but it's of a very similar size) The dark blue unnumbered piece is UN-quota refugees The dark brown(?) unnumbered piece is people living in Sweden without legal papers but unable to be deported due to different reasons So that's what, roughly 61% of all immigrants(if we count ALL adoptions and relation-immigration as being for non-Swedes which is, well, plainly wrong) not of Swedish citizenry that's 50385 that entered the country that weren't EES-holders. That's less than half of all who moved to Sweden and less who moved out of Sweden. quote:But doesn't Sweden have a lot of immigrants, looking at wikipedia it says slightly less than 20% of inhabitants have either born abroad or born by somebody who came from abroad, according to data from 2011. What is it with (seemingly) unrestricted immigration? Rutkowski fucked around with this message at 17:49 on Jan 6, 2014 |
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Jan 6, 2014 17:33
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Rutkowski posted:That means we have a + in people living here through immigration and emigration of 51 312. That's 0.5 percent of the entire country. Huh, that's higher than I thought it would be. That's like a small city of foreigners springing up every year
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Jan 6, 2014 17:46
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Enjoy posted:Huh, that's higher than I thought it would be. That's like a small city of foreigners springing up every year Then there's all the people that don't get children in the first place.
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Jan 6, 2014 17:51
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Rutkowski posted:Immigration isn't the problem, growing economic differences in the wake of all parties becoming more and more economically liberal in a historically social democrat nation with low class differences is the problem. Part of the solution is educating people that the reason the welfare system is failing is because our government is selling it to private actors who run it into the ground for profit and not because we get a bunch of immigrants. Right, this is exactly what I mean. People who vote SD don't believe this. You're essentially saying "no, you are wrong" and that's not a message voters will eat up. Since we have people from Denmark and Netherlands, could you expand on your "this happened to us 10-15 years ago"? I'd be very interested in hearing what happened back then and where did it lead.
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Jan 6, 2014 17:53
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Hob_Gadling posted:Right, this is exactly what I mean. People who vote SD don't believe this. You're essentially saying "no, you are wrong" and that's not a message voters will eat up.
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Jan 6, 2014 17:56
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Rutkowski posted:Just because they don't believe it doesn't mean it's wrong. What should we do, cater to their racism and go "yeah okay we're totally promoting crime and poverty by bringing in foreign hordes to ruin the country for the sake of it"? Damned if I know, but that's the message political far right across Europe rides on. It seems to work.
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Jan 6, 2014 18:33
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Hob_Gadling posted:Damned if I know, but that's the message political far right across Europe rides on. It seems to work.
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Jan 6, 2014 18:39
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SSJ2 Goku Wilders posted:I'm glad of Robespierre and the Terror. Personally I think they are good. I'm pretty much against violence of all sorts. I just dont' think it works and has some ugly unspoken assumptions. But If Golden Dawn in greece gets much stronger, antifa and the labor movement might find itself having to make some stark decisions regarding what to do with a fascist movement that will kill them given enough strength, and refuses to lie down. If it means targetting and neutralizing (if you'll excuse the euphemism) those in Golden Dawn who would and have killed, then its only self defence. But not before its too late, only after.
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Jan 6, 2014 18:46
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Rutkowski posted:So your solution is to join them then and work with them? No, of course not. I just think that the whole cause of this problem is people feeling that they've been left alone with a problem they can't solve. It's irrelevant that far right can't solve the problem either. They're giving the appearance of trying to solve it and here's the scary part: people are desperate enough to believe them. Preventing this desperation from being born is the best solution; barring that, addressing it directly in a way that alleviates the fears of people is the second best choice. Telling people that they're wrong, there is no problem, deal with it is the worst solution. Politics is partly putting up appearances. Failure of European established left to do so has been staggering in proportion, when their opponents can say the sort of insane conspiracy theories they do and still gather significant support.
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Jan 6, 2014 18:54
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Rutkowski posted:So your solution is to join them then and work with them? Come on, he didn't say that. Gather arguments that show that evil immigrant talk is bullshit, point out examples of immigrants doing good things, and stuff like that. While it would bring even more attention the whole 'immigrant danger' rhetoric, it would weaken the right wing "we're the only ones solving the problem" card. Or you could use a mild, mostly harmless form of national pride as a vent to reduce the amount of harmful one. Emphasize that people moving in means that the country is doing well (with subtle implications of WE ARE AWESOME), and that people should feel proud because of that. It might backfire if you argue for this the wrong way, or cause a different kind of harm (If I had a dollar for every time I heard/read a person from a Northern European country say "I can't be nationalist, I'm <nationality>" I'd be a rich man) but it could help. edit: Of course, this requires more effort than saying "You can't convince a fascist", so...
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Jan 6, 2014 18:59
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Hob_Gadling posted:No, of course not. I just think that the whole cause of this problem is people feeling that they've been left alone with a problem they can't solve. It's irrelevant that far right can't solve the problem either. They're giving the appearance of trying to solve it and here's the scary part: people are desperate enough to believe them. Preventing this desperation from being born is the best solution; barring that, addressing it directly in a way that alleviates the fears of people is the second best choice. Telling people that they're wrong, there is no problem, deal with it is the worst solution. Obviously, the solution is educating people about the non-existence of the problem, that they're being lied to, and why those people are lying to them. It's not an easy solution by any means, but it is the only solution, not the worst solution. If you just want to talk about the mechanics of politics in a dreary way, then the other 'solution' is to find a problem they consider bigger, but there are plenty of people who, due to believing something false, will vote single-issue on immigration. Similarly, in the US, we have people that vote Republican purely out of racism. The only way to permanently combat this is education.
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Jan 6, 2014 19:36
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Does anybody have even an anecdotal example of a racist being convinced to be not racist? I ask because if the solution is to convert conservatives before they become fascists, then we need to have at least an abstract idea of how to do that. In my experience all that's ever happened is that a racist will say that the minorities they know are "exceptions" or "one of the good ones" but that their racist viewpoints hold up in general.
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Jan 6, 2014 19:41
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visceril posted:Does anybody have even an anecdotal example of a racist being convinced to be not racist? Yes
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Jan 6, 2014 19:44
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Obdicut posted:Obviously, the solution is educating people about the non-existence of the problem, that they're being lied to, and why those people are lying to them. I don't think this will work in the specific case of Sweden. The people who vote for SD voted predominantly for leftist parties. Convincing them to switch back doesn't happen by simply saying "you're being lied to". The reasons they stopped voting left are still there. Swedes were, and still are, overwhelmingly in support of helping those in need. Also, this is Sweden we're talking about. Unless the nation is significantly different from what I've always believed it to be the people who vote SD are predominantly not racists and not even right-wingers. They'll flip back overnight if their concerns are addressed in a way that they have faith in. As long as the left says "there is no immigration problem, you've imagined it all" and right says "look out your window and decide for yourself" right is going to garner more support. This is stupid. Who comes off as more honest?
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Jan 6, 2014 20:04
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Hob_Gadling posted:This is stupid. Who comes off as more honest? For the sake of discussion, imagine you're a member of the SD/average guy they're reaching out to and tell us what the problems are. Just put a bolded clause saying that's not what you really think, since some of the people who post here have a really short attention span. We kinda need to know what they're saying to know how to counter them. edit: spellchecking my dad fucked around with this message at 20:15 on Jan 6, 2014 |
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Jan 6, 2014 20:09
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I don't understand. So we need to clone Nelson Mandela and have him go meet every racist?
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Jan 6, 2014 20:23
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visceril posted:Does anybody have even an anecdotal example of a racist being convinced to be not racist? Yeah, I've known a ton of people who've grown up mildly racist, gotten some real-life experience, and wised up and are no longer racist. I also know a smaller, but significant, number of people who went from virulent racists to non-racist. quote:I don't think this will work in the specific case of Sweden. The people who vote for SD voted predominantly for leftist parties. Convincing them to switch back doesn't happen by simply saying "you're being lied to". The reasons they stopped voting left are still there. Swedes were, and still are, overwhelmingly in support of helping those in need. I didn't say to simply say "You are being lied to". Can you explain how you got that out of my post, when I said that you had to educate people and that it wasn't easy? If it were just saying "You are being lied to," then it's easy. The problem is actually showing people that they're being lied to. quote:Also, this is Sweden we're talking about. Unless the nation is significantly different from what I've always believed it to be the people who vote SD are predominantly not racists and not even right-wingers. They'll flip back overnight if their concerns are addressed in a way that they have faith in. As long as the left says "there is no immigration problem, you've imagined it all" and right says "look out your window and decide for yourself" right is going to garner more support. This is stupid. Who comes off as more honest? Why do you keep making a straw-man out of the argument on the 'left'? Is what you're somewhat bafflingly asking for a long essay right now in this forum of the type that could be used to convince some SD voter, or what? You do get that saying "Convince people they're being lied to" goes farther than just walking up to them and saying "You're being lied to", right?
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Jan 6, 2014 20:25
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visceril posted:I don't understand. So we need to clone Nelson Mandela and have him go meet every racist? No. But you asked if there was even anectodal evidence of racists stopping being racists. Here's a more personal example related to a different issue. A few of my friends became a lot less homophobic when I explained to them the violence I, a straight person, had to suffer because someone spread the rumor of me being gay among some local thugs in my hometown. Humanize the issue. It won't always work, I'll grant you that, but you vastly underestimate people's ability to change their views when given the right arguments.
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Jan 6, 2014 20:31
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my dad posted:For the sake of discussion, imagine you're a member of the SD/average guy they're reaching out to and tell us what the problems are. Okay, lets give this a try. Disappointed new right voter posted:I fear for my own and my relatives safety because a person I know was robbed by an immigrant. I think it is wrong that some of the immigrants bring their stone age customs with them and refuse to let go. I feel lied to because we were supposed to be helping but many of the people who came here curse us, make no effort to integrate and rather travel back to fight in wars than try to build a new life here. As far as I can tell, this is the what seems to happen. SD had 5,7% of the vote in 2010 and got 20 people in. This is too large a group to be all neo-Nazis and extremists. Something else must be going on. Obdicut posted:Can you explain how you got that out of my post, when I said that you had to educate people and that it wasn't easy? I assumed you meant the whole nine yards. The idea of education isn't new and it is an ongoing process in all Nordic countries, maybe more in Sweden than anywhere else. And despite it, people stopped voting for old parties and switched to new right. quote:Why do you keep making a straw-man out of the argument on the 'left'? Because that is my honest interpretation of how the message is received among the people who switch sides. I know it feels stupid but that's how it seems to work. Hob_Gadling fucked around with this message at 20:44 on Jan 6, 2014 |
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Jan 6, 2014 20:33
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visceril posted:Does anybody have even an anecdotal example of a racist being convinced to be not racist? Yes. I was raised by Holocaust deniers. My father took me to neo-nazi rallies as a child. Around age 20 or so I suddenly realized that my faith in the cause had been steadily eroding away and I didn't believe it any more, and hadn't for some time. I wish I could say that I was reasoned out of it, but the truth is more that peer pressure is a hell of a drug. The best way to convert fascists is to force them to confront alternate viewpoints constantly, to isolate them from other people who share their beliefs, to constantly hammer away at the inconsistencies in their ideology. Some of this is more applicable to young people than adults, but all this stuff is why integration of schools, having outspoken leftists in positions of visible authority, and riding the thin line of neither driving people with nutty beliefs into self-reinforcing cults nor treating their position as legitimate in public discourse are so important.
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Jan 6, 2014 20:50
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:I was raised by Holocaust deniers. My father took me to neo-nazi rallies as a child. Around age 20 or so I suddenly realized that my faith in the cause had been steadily eroding away and I didn't believe it any more, and hadn't for some time. I have a friend who was raised in the exact same circumstances and stopped believing in the exact same ideals for the exact same reasons. I guess he isn't quite as unique as I thought. Do you ever have situations where you spontaneously use a (problematic) figure of speech you learned during your childhood and realize a moment too late what you just said? He has a bit of a problem with that.
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Jan 6, 2014 20:57
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my dad posted:I have a friend who was raised in the exact same circumstances and stopped believing in the exact same ideals for the exact same reasons. I guess he isn't quite as unique as I thought. Do you ever have situations where you spontaneously use a (problematic) figure of speech you learned during your childhood and realize a moment too late what you just said? He has a bit of a problem with that. I spent a lot of time consciously removing that sort of thing from my idiom, to the point where I've been made fun of for how fastidiously I avoid it now. 
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Jan 6, 2014 20:59
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visceril posted:Does anybody have even an anecdotal example of a racist being convinced to be not racist? http://guardianlv.com/2013/11/kkk-member-walks-up-to-black-musician-in-bar-but-its-not-a-joke-and-what-happens-next-will-astound-you/ Apparently this man decimated the Maryland KKK by being friendly and a good musician.
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Jan 6, 2014 21:06
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Hob_Gadling posted:Okay, lets give this a try. That education didn't completely work doesn't mean it can't work, or hasn't worked somewhat. It's almost certain that Nordic society now is far less racist than it was in, say, the 1930s. There are some people you won't reach. I really have no clue what you're asking at this point. People on the left do not, as you claimed, simply say "You're being lied to", and that interpretation is, of course, a strawman. The process of education is, as you said, ongoing, and it clearly has had a lot of effect. You seem like you're looking for some specific answer. What is it?
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Jan 6, 2014 21:08
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Huh wow I guess that does work. I mean, in my experience it's the result if something just clicking rather than the active influence of others. I have a typical Republican dad and I went from over-the-top conservatism to gain his approval to smug "gently caress you dad" libertarian to actual leftism. I dunno it felt like I just became more mature and stopped doing things just to get a rise out of others or approval from an authority figure. I did have a leftist teacher in high school who would ask me proving questions sometimes, and I usually responded in talking points from Rush, but I did think about it for a long time after. I mean, if I really think about it I've challenged a lot of my parent's political beliefs. A lot of it has to do with the Overton window shifting so far so rapidly (both voted for Bush; my mom has declared her support for Hillary and my dad wants Gary Johnson). I guess I was too quick to go negative. Coolio
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Jan 6, 2014 21:09
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:Yes. Exactly the same thing happened to the sisters who were the neo-Nazi pop group Prussian Blue. They were raised in hate, took it as the way you should be, then they went to college and their views expanded.
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Jan 6, 2014 21:14
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Hob_Gadling posted:
People get very xenophobic when their way of life changes in anyway. You need only to look at Denmark for examples of that. The issue people have is, to be blunt, that they think their country is being invaded by Arabs and black people. That's not something you can just logic away.
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Jan 6, 2014 21:26
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Obdicut posted:That education didn't completely work doesn't mean it can't work, or hasn't worked somewhat. It's almost certain that Nordic society now is far less racist than it was in, say, the 1930s. You're talking about something completely different. It's an interesting tangent but not something I'm going to start getting into. quote:I really have no clue what you're asking at this point. There is a disconnect between what people feel and what Nordic (and on a larger scale, European) moderate left tells them. I find this fascinating and want to talk with people who are in organizations dealing with this issue. Make of that what you will.
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Jan 6, 2014 21:27
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Hob_Gadling posted:You're talking about something completely different. It's an interesting tangent but not something I'm going to start getting into. I'm not in the least bit talking about something different. Your question is how to reach voters who believe the anti-immigrant fictions, and my answer is that you need to educate them about the reality, that those fictions are, in fact, fictions. You don't like this answer, but it is an answer. quote:There is a disconnect between what people feel and what Nordic (and on a larger scale, European) moderate left tells them. I find this fascinating and want to talk with people who are in organizations dealing with this issue. Make of that what you will. Can you give any examples at all?
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Jan 6, 2014 21:32
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