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Atma McCuddles posted:I like when they tried to poison a steel-type. A Steel type behind a substitute.
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Jan 7, 2014 21:10
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The Leper Colon V posted:http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-75710465 Deoxys-D is actually UU right now because it doesn't do well against a lot of things.
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Jan 7, 2014 21:12
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http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/vgc2014-75711559 Apparently the guy I beat earlier today is still mad. So mad that he watched one of my games and dropped heavy sarcasm throughout the whole thing. All because I beat his team with stuff he didn't expect. Improbable Lobster posted:I wonder if Magician Klefki is workable. Is it even available in game yet? I can't think of anything magician would do for Kelfki. I mean its a fun ability but Klefki's basically pure support. He can't benefit from a lot of items, and not having prankster makes his ability to support the team much weaker.
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Jan 7, 2014 21:13
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The Leper Colon V posted:http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-75710465 That Magnezone just laid on a comfy bed of spikes, subsitute dolly by his side as he absentmindedly just broke everything thrown at him.
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Jan 7, 2014 21:14
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Internet Kraken posted:Absolutely none of that addresses my original point of there being no good reason to give pokemon garbage stas right from the start. The Pokemon with garbage stats can still absolutely be useful in an in-game playthrough, the main point of the game.
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Jan 7, 2014 21:23
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notthegoatseguy posted:The Pokemon with garbage stats can still absolutely be useful in an in-game playthrough, the main point of the game. We were talking about competitively. Gamefreak obviously supports the competitive scene and have it in mind when designing lots of pokemon. There's no reason to give something low stats just because it can function ingame. Its not like it having lovely stats lets it fill some role ingame that it otherwise couldn't with good ones.
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Jan 7, 2014 21:27
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notthegoatseguy posted:The Pokemon with garbage stats can still absolutely be useful in an in-game playthrough, the main point of the game. The Protoss Scout, a unit with garbage stats, can still absolutely be useful in an in-game playthrough, the main point of the game. It has nothing to do with the idea of why kricketune or sunflora doesn't just get a higher BST so it can see some usage. Contrast it to Pinsir who at least had the stats to do things.
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Jan 7, 2014 21:28
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Bogart posted:Can Focus Energy be Baton Passed? Yes. FYI, this info is on both Smogon and Bulbapedia.
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Jan 7, 2014 21:44
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New UU is really fun. http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/uubeta-75717639 I make some bad predictions at the start, but I pull through near the end (I thought the Slwobro was going to be a Calm Mind booster). I'm really liking Barbaracle though.
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Jan 7, 2014 21:50
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Been breeding for good Froslass's So I've got like 5 Female Moody Snorunts with 31 IV in HP/Def/SpD/Spe and 1 with HP/SpA/SpD/Spe all with Spikes bred onto them. Does anyone want these spares before I toss them up on WT like the rest?
ZenMasterBullshit fucked around with this message at 22:03 on Jan 7, 2014 |
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Jan 7, 2014 22:00
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Internet Kraken posted:We were talking about competitively. Gamefreak obviously supports the competitive scene and have it in mind when designing lots of pokemon. There's no reason to give something low stats just because it can function ingame. Its not like it having lovely stats lets it fill some role ingame that it otherwise couldn't with good ones. Gamefreak absolutely has the competitive scene in mind when designing lots of Pokemon, but it obviously doesn't have it in mind when designing all of them, otherwise there wouldn't be any pure Poison-type or Ice-type Pokemon, because goddamn those are some lovely typings. Plus let's not forget the existence of Delibird. Also, although they're clearly at least trying to rehabilitate some old Pokemon with new abilities and moves and sometimes Mega Evos, they don't always know exactly what will or won't be useful - there's tons of Pokemon with abilities or whatever that scream "this seems kind of cool and has potential but probably isn't actually usable". For example, Beedrill got Sniper in Gen5, and between Gen4 move tutors and Gen5 move tutors it gets two (non-STAB, of course) moves with increased crit rate in addition to having Focus Energy. Is it good? Probably not, but if you really really like Beedrill it sounds almost usable as long as you don't run into anything with the speed or priority needed to punch through the relatively slow bug's paper defenses. Maybe you could give it some support in Doubles or something? Similarly, maybe Kricketune could get something out of Technician-boosted Fell Stinger or Power-Up Punch? Probably not, but Doubles support can make a lot more things viable. Of course, you could use that support on keeping an actually good Pokemon alive instead, but that's the price you pay using one of the Pokemon that wasn't specifically designed to be a competitive shitwrecker.
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Jan 7, 2014 22:13
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For mixed attackers (specifically Salamence and Lucario) is there ever any justification of going with a neutral nature? It just seems like nerfing one of your defenses seems like a bad idea.
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Jan 7, 2014 22:13
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Some people get really upset over Challenge Cup: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/challengecup-75725066 Maybe he would do better if he didn't constantly and predictably switch.
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Jan 7, 2014 22:13
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ZenMasterBullshit posted:Been breeding for good Froslass's So I've got like 5 Female Moody Snorunts with 31 IV in HP/Def/SpD/Spe and 1 with HP/SpA/SpD/Spe all with Spikes bred onto them. Does anyone want these spares before I toss them up on WT like the rest? I want 2 of them. How does random things from the 4-5IV box I was about to wonder trade sound? IGN: Locke FC: 3883-6057-2559 edit:thanks L0cke17 fucked around with this message at 22:26 on Jan 7, 2014 |
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Jan 7, 2014 22:20
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L0cke17 posted:I want 2 of them. How does random things from the 4-5IV box I was about to wonder trade sound? Sure that sounds fine. FC:0989 2944 5596 IGN: Clue. I'm online right now
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Jan 7, 2014 22:22
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pik_d posted:For mixed attackers (specifically Salamence and Lucario) is there ever any justification of going with a neutral nature? It just seems like nerfing one of your defenses seems like a bad idea. No. Mixed Sweepers generally go for a defense reducing nature based on what's likely to check them. For example, Lucario is more likely to be checked by physical attacks aside from another special lucario's vacuum wave so you reduce his special defense. Losing 10% speed or 10% into an attacking stat is too much to justify not losing a bit in defense.
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Jan 7, 2014 22:33
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ZenMasterBullshit posted:Been breeding for good Froslass's So I've got like 5 Female Moody Snorunts with 31 IV in HP/Def/SpD/Spe and 1 with HP/SpA/SpD/Spe all with Spikes bred onto them. Does anyone want these spares before I toss them up on WT like the rest? I'd be interested in one. Got some 5IV mawiles lying around if you want one in return. 4768 7629 8819 IGN Joshua
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Jan 7, 2014 22:34
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^^^^ Got anything else? I literally just got done Leveling my 5 IV mawile. I mean if you don't you can still have one I'm just wondering what else you've gotL0cke17 posted:edit:thanks No problem. Now I've just got to get a decent Water 3 male. Thought I had a 5 IV Crawdaunt waiting but turns out She's a lady so that doesn't help much!
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Jan 7, 2014 22:35
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Main Paineframe posted:Gamefreak absolutely has the competitive scene in mind when designing lots of Pokemon, but it obviously doesn't have it in mind when designing all of them, otherwise there wouldn't be any pure Poison-type or Ice-type Pokemon, because goddamn those are some lovely typings. Plus let's not forget the existence of Delibird. Also, although they're clearly at least trying to rehabilitate some old Pokemon with new abilities and moves and sometimes Mega Evos, they don't always know exactly what will or won't be useful - there's tons of Pokemon with abilities or whatever that scream "this seems kind of cool and has potential but probably isn't actually usable". You're really good at saying a whole lot of nothing. Since you seem to keep forgetting, my original point was there's no reason for Gamefreak to keep giving a bunch of pokemon poo poo stats. You have yet to provide any explanation as to why they should. Yes they've done some things that have made pokemon that were otherwise ignored useful, but that doesn't change the fact that they are still adding pokemon that are crippled from the word go simply because their stats are atrocious. Not everything needs to be a 600 stat beast but I don't see any reason for sub 400 stat pokemon to still be added. Your Beedrill example is trash though because its still crippled by its stats. It doesn't matter what you try to do with Beedrill; its a 75 speed pokemon with paper defenses. It can't outspeed a ton of stuff, it can't take a hit, and even when it lands a hit of its own it doesn't have any sting to it. Its inherently crippled by the stats it carries and you can't do anything about it. You shouldn't have to pay a price for not using a pokemon designed entirely for comp because there's no good reason for these pokemon to have such atrocious stats. It doesn't improve the game in ANY way and just dissuades people from using pokemon they might like.
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Jan 7, 2014 22:38
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ZenMasterBullshit posted:^^^^ Got anything else? I literally just got done Leveling my 5 IV mawile. I mean if you don't you can still have one I'm just wondering what else you've got That's the only breeding project I've done yet this generation. I've probably got something decent amongst the stuff I've gotten from wondertrade, but I'm not sure.
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Jan 7, 2014 22:43
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Blhue posted:That's the only breeding project I've done yet this generation. I've probably got something decent amongst the stuff I've gotten from wondertrade, but I'm not sure. Dude! Thanks for the Feebas! EDIT: Down to 2 Snorunts left. One HP/Def/SpD/Spe and one HP/SpA/SpD/Spe
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Jan 7, 2014 22:45
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Yep. Had to browse a bit for something not garbage in my unsorted wondertrade boxes.
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Jan 7, 2014 22:47
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Improbable Lobster posted:I wonder if Magician Klefki is workable. Is it even available in game yet? You know how Michael Jordan quit basketball to play baseball? (as chronicled in the 1996 biopic Space Jam) Well magician Klefki is kind of like that.
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Jan 7, 2014 22:48
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Sebadoh Gigante posted:You know how Michael Jordan quit basketball to play baseball? (as chronicled in the 1996 biopic Space Jam) Well magician Klefki is kind of like that.  My only close comparison was chlorophyll whimsicott or defiant Thundurus-I  .
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Jan 7, 2014 22:49
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Internet Kraken posted:You're really good at saying a whole lot of nothing. If they're going to make good pokemon why shouldn't they make poo poo ones too? For every player gaming stats and move sets there's gotta be someone that plays just because they enjoy collecting cute things.
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Jan 7, 2014 22:54
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Internet Kraken posted:You're really good at saying a whole lot of nothing. There is no actual reason for having Pokemon with low stats, but that just adds more variety, there will always be crappy joke Pokemon, or early game stuff that outlives its usefulness mid-game, encouraging you to swap it for something else. That's how things are in a lot of games, there's good stuff and there's bad stuff. Beedrill especially has low stats because you can get it a level 10. It teaches the player about evolution, that things get stronger. Something you can upgrade in future and since you get it so earlier, it's definitely not gonna have high stats, it'd make the early game trivial, so they make it weak so it fits in a difficulty curve. If you want, sure, you can go through the game with Fire Spell Lv1, but you're gonna switch to Lv2 or Lv3 eventually when you get them, but if you really try, then Lv1 will be just fine. Maybe. And Gamefreak just make weird decisions in general, how they make a Pokemon and distribute its stats is somewhat baffling and they'll make bad Pokemon because there can be.
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Jan 7, 2014 23:01
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Slightly Toasted posted:If they're going to make good pokemon why shouldn't they make poo poo ones too? For every player gaming stats and move sets there's gotta be someone that plays just because they enjoy collecting cute things. I mean, maybe I'm weird, but I don't see why something that's cute has to be bad.
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Jan 7, 2014 23:02
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Countblanc posted:I mean, maybe I'm weird, but I don't see why something that's cute has to be bad. Not all the cute ones are bad though. Zoness posted:No. Mixed Sweepers generally go for a defense reducing nature based on what's likely to check them. For example, Lucario is more likely to be checked by physical attacks aside from another special lucario's vacuum wave so you reduce his special defense. Thanks, just feels a little like potentially shooting myself in the foot. With Salamence You see Naive with reduces special defense, but with fairy moves being mostly special, that may not be as simple a choice anymore.
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Jan 7, 2014 23:04
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Ice still being poo poo is baffling to me since there's so many things that do glass cannon far better now.
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Jan 7, 2014 23:05
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Crosspeice posted:There is no actual reason for having Pokemon with low stats, but that just adds more variety, there will always be crappy joke Pokemon, or early game stuff that outlives its usefulness mid-game, encouraging you to swap it for something else. You can't justify Magcargo being so bad. You can't.
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Jan 7, 2014 23:08
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pik_d posted:
You can (should) switch out against fairies if you don't ohko/outspeed them and there are no priority fairy moves.
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Jan 7, 2014 23:08
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Countblanc posted:I mean, maybe I'm weird, but I don't see why something that's cute has to be bad. I don't think there is any correlation whatsoever between how cute something is and how good it is. I just think it's funny how somebody trying to make the argument against game freak making poo poo pokemon wouldn't be much different from someone trying to say they shouldn't make ugly pokemon.
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Jan 7, 2014 23:10
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Slightly Toasted posted:If they're going to make good pokemon why shouldn't they make poo poo ones too? For every player gaming stats and move sets there's gotta be someone that plays just because they enjoy collecting cute things. Why do you think All Pokemon Being Usuable/Viable can't coexist with just enjoying collecting cute things? For people who only care about Collecting Cute things stats don't matter so they don't care if the cute things are also good. Like there's not point in NOT making everything somewhat usable.
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Jan 7, 2014 23:11
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Slightly Toasted posted:I don't think there is any correlation whatsoever between how cute something is and how good it is. I just think it's funny how somebody trying to make the argument against game freak making poo poo pokemon wouldn't be much different from someone trying to say they shouldn't make ugly pokemon. Beauty is subjective while battle viability can be objectively extrapolated from usage data.
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Jan 7, 2014 23:12
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Zoness posted:Beauty is subjective while battle viability can be objectively extrapolated from usage data. Also objectively extrapolated by just running the stats/movepool. Like there are a lot of pokemon that COULD be good if they just gave them moves to actually use.
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Jan 7, 2014 23:16
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I think the answer is simple: a lot of stuff stays handicapped because it plays into the themes literally every game promotes. When I battle someone online, and see they've caught under 100 Pokemon and evolved 22 times, I just roll my eyes. Yes you can look up ahead of time which ones are going to be absolute murder machines and ignore everything else. But taking the figurative runt of the litter, and raising it with care until it can take on the champion is fun for some people. Game Freak's been working on this series for drat near 20 years now. I think we can safely say their creative teams are every bit as hardheaded about the 'lore' and 'message' of the games as you are about the balance aspect. It's like asking why can Golurk learn Fly and so many beam attacks? Because it's a giant robot and therefore can fly and shoot lasers. Why does Mawile get Fake Tears, an attack which is utterly useless for it? Because of the 'two-faced' theme. There are dozens more like this.
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Jan 7, 2014 23:18
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Steel Monotype is still silly even with the nerf and for some reason a fire team even forfeits? http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/oumonotype-75739175
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Jan 7, 2014 23:22
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Just have a mode that scales all stats to 600BST. Why yes, I'd love a 160 base speed Dugtrio and a 150 base attack Granbull. e: 300 base HP Happiny 
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Jan 7, 2014 23:23
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_Endgame_ posted:Steel Monotype is still silly even with the nerf and for some reason a fire team even forfeits? He lost his sun lead to whatever he was trying to achieve and has no way to clear hazards. Heatran kind of checks a lot of fire types that way. Meat Recital posted:Just have a mode that scales all stats to 600BST. Why yes, I'd love a 160 base speed Dugtrio and a 150 base attack Granbull. Averagemons is actually pretty funny for that. It's a Smogon format that changes everything to base 100 stats. It also has a lot of obnoxious speed ties. Huge Power and something else is banned, and I think evo stones still do the same stat changes. Corsola with 100's across the board and regenerator is hilarious, for starters.
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Jan 7, 2014 23:25
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Rangpur posted:I think the answer is simple: a lot of stuff stays handicapped because it plays into the themes literally every game promotes. When I battle someone online, and see they've caught under 100 Pokemon and evolved 22 times, I just roll my eyes. Yes you can look up ahead of time which ones are going to be absolute murder machines and ignore everything else. But taking the figurative runt of the litter, and raising it with care until it can take on the champion is fun for some people. You could do this without pokemon having poo poo stats. Even if all these trash pokemon got huge stat buffs they still wouldn't see much use since they are overshadowed by other pokemon. In that sense they would still be underdogs. I don't see any of this as a good reason to condemn a pokemon to obscurity by butchering its stats. I get that some pokemon are jokes but frankly the "joke" of bug types having poo poo stats has gotten old for me.
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Jan 7, 2014 23:29
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