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Toady posted:I agree with Chris Crawford's distinction that a game is a goal-oriented activity with active agents that can interfere with each other. It doesn't make sense to me to classify chess or poker as a toy. And yet a chess set or deck of cards (particularly novelty ones) is more easily thought of as a toy.
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Jan 11, 2014 02:22
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Agreed. Crawford's definition states that a toy becomes a game element when rules are created for it.
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Jan 11, 2014 02:47
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Are we really getting to the point where people are having to define what a "toy" is? Let's drop this immensely dumb discussion and stop microanalyzing things that don't need analysis. We all play video games and are huge nerds and losers, that's all that needs to be said.
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Jan 11, 2014 04:50
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It was just a harmless back and forth to me. There's a bigger context involving Nintendo's image of itself as a toymaker and what that means for their approach to modern services.
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Jan 11, 2014 05:13
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Louisgod posted:Are we really getting to the point where people are having to define what a "toy" is? Let's drop this immensely dumb discussion and stop microanalyzing things that don't need analysis. We all play video games and are huge nerds and losers, that's all that needs to be said. I think there is value in analyzing whether nintendo's failures are just incompetence or whether there's some kind of management philosophy they have that has led to it. It's not super serious but I think it's interesting.
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Jan 11, 2014 05:27
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He's right that game theory nonsense is boring poo poo. To me, it was a mini-conversation branching from the "games are just toys" statement, which has context in this thread since people have complained about Nintendo's anachronistic handling of the Wii U, as if they still view themselves as a novelty toymaker in an industry that doesn't see itself that way.
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Jan 11, 2014 05:31
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Bruceski posted:Aren't there two other seasons, or did kindergarten lie to me? The fact that they didn't attach a season implies to me that it'll be the last season, especially since, when Nintendo's involved, "Spring" probably means Mario Kart will be out in May or June. Unless Iwata pulls a "Super Smash Brothers 4 Wii U and Nintendo 3DS will be available at the end of the conference" speech at E3 and makes everyone collectively facepalm.
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Jan 11, 2014 05:41
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icantfindaname posted:I think there is value in analyzing whether nintendo's failures are just incompetence or whether there's some kind of management philosophy they have that has led to it. It's not super serious but I think it's interesting. You can do that without getting super granular and delving into a semantics game. I saw the potential of the conversation droning into a snoozefest of a game of "what do we think this word means" and wanted to divert it to something more productive is all. Honestly I think reading the latest Emily Rogers piece about the Gamecube (it's literally 24k words long) will give you a fantadtic insight into Nintendo's thought process at a managerial, employee and partner level. Toady posted:He's right that game theory nonsense is boring poo poo. To me, it was a mini-conversation branching from the "games are just toys" statement, which has context in this thread since people have complained about Nintendo's anachronistic handling of the Wii U, as if they still view themselves as a novelty toymaker in an industry that doesn't see itself that way. I feel "toys" is a weird term to use when referring to something that has a main purpose to entertain. Yeah toys can entertain too but defining something as a toy carries its own weird stigma and connotations. Agh dammit you're luring me into this word trap drat you.
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Jan 11, 2014 06:06
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Trap sprung! Edit: It's really a debate over what ImpAtom touched on earlier and what you mentioned, which is the general attitude associated with that connotation. Games outsell Hollywood and are a primary source of entertainment, so I wonder if Nintendo believes games are anything more than toys. Toady fucked around with this message at 06:19 on Jan 11, 2014 |
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Jan 11, 2014 06:08
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Toady posted:Trap sprung! Oh they absolutely do, to a point where it seems they hope their games transcend entertainment and translate into unadulterated fun.
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Jan 11, 2014 06:45
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Louisgod posted:Oh they absolutely do, to a point where it seems they hope their games transcend entertainment and translate into unadulterated fun. That's a pretty good article. It even showed that even back then NOA knew what to do to try and save the gamecube but their hands were tied by NOJ not understanding America, and they couldn't defy NOJ.
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Jan 11, 2014 08:33
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An article's just popped up on Eurogamer about an unnamed British devco's problems developing for the Wii U (up to launch). Highlights include: - specs that appeared poor on paper that weren't sufficiently clarified - difficulty with a simple "Hello World" programme, difficult to compile code - communication problems with Japan, which involved e-mails going through a translator to the Japanese developers, and then back again through a translator - a complete lack of understanding for the online infrastructure at Nintendo, with senior bodies having not much knowledge of what PSN or XBLA was like
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Jan 11, 2014 12:30
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I've always viewed Nintendo games as filling this weird, creative nitch that MS, Sony, and PC developers never bothered touching. Games that are targeted more towards children and teens, but still fun for adults. They incorporate really vibrant color palates and simple, silly but likeable characters. They are easy to pickup, easy to play, and tell a very straightforward good guy vs. bad guy narrative that's likable and completely cohesive to play through (in comparison to something like Bioshock jammed full of obscure references, and social commentary). The thing is, indie devs have caught on to this, and both MS/Sony/PC indie devs are really beginning to push out titles similar in structure. Their only issue is that they are Live/PS+ arcade titles that are only 3-5 hours long and for the most part are one time, no sequel games. Meanwhile, Nintendo doesn't know what the gently caress to do in response, and is just falling back to their old faithful selection of Mario/Smash Bros/Mario Cart/Metroid/whatever IPs. I'm just curious as to how long Nintendo can last by just pushing forward reiterations of old IPs. When was the last time Nintendo actually attempted to try a game based around a new cast of characters in a new universe? The only example I can think of is Jet Force Gemini which was an N64 title. Since then, it has just been rehash after rehash while indie studios have been partially filling in the gap with simple, fun, and interesting games with the downside of low production values due to budget. Nintendo is really in trouble if they just keep stagnating instead of innovating at this point.
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Jan 11, 2014 13:02
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Avalanche posted:I'm just curious as to how long Nintendo can last by just pushing forward reiterations of old IPs. When was the last time Nintendo actually attempted to try a game based around a new cast of characters in a new universe? The only example I can think of is Jet Force Gemini which was an N64 title. Since then, it has just been rehash after rehash while indie studios have been partially filling in the gap with simple, fun, and interesting games with the downside of low production values due to budget. Pikmin (they're up to 3 now) Chibi-Robo (new camera-based gimmick game just came out for 3DS) Drill Dozer HarmoKnight Pushmo/Crashmo Sakura Samurai That's off the top of my head from Gamecube era onward, limited to things that can unarguably be considered "Nintendo" (for example Eternal Darkness was published by Nintendo and Nintendo-exclusive (as its sequel was to be if the Kickstarter hadn't been a pile of failure upon failure) but Silicon Knights did other games for other platforms). All of them have their own characters and universe that could allow for sequels later.
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Jan 11, 2014 13:43
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Chocolate Teapot posted:An article's just popped up on Eurogamer about an unnamed British devco's problems developing for the Wii U (up to launch). Great article thanks for sharing. It seems that Nintendo haven't got the resources to develop the platform / SDK up to the comparatively polished level of it's competitors.. That and the hardware is relatively weak.. If this is what third party teams have to go through well.. why should they bother at this point?
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Jan 11, 2014 14:37
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Animal Crossing is another example of a good IP Nintendo developed during the GC days.
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Jan 11, 2014 15:06
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Morby posted:Animal Crossing is another example of a good IP Nintendo developed during the GC days. N64 actually.
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Jan 11, 2014 15:28
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NeilPerry posted:N64 actually. Along with other wacky junk like Doshin the Giant! His point still stands, though. People just like to ignore all the new IPs Nintendo pumps out every generation for reasons I don't totally understand.
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Jan 11, 2014 15:30
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The Timely Howard posted:Along with other wacky junk like Doshin the Giant! They've been doing it since the Gamecube days. I remember a detailed post on Wii60 back in the day with all the exclusive and really good stuff that was on the Gamecube in response to 'When's the last time Nintendo consoles had new franchises?'. It's an image that is untrue but is somehow inextricably bound to them.
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Jan 11, 2014 15:32
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NeilPerry posted:N64 actually. I didn't realize Animal Crossing was on N64! Add this to the list of reasons why I regret giving away my N64 in my foolish youth.
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Jan 11, 2014 15:41
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There's good IP that's gone abandoned that they could pick up as well, like Skies of Arcadia or Grandia.
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Jan 11, 2014 15:49
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Morby posted:I didn't realize Animal Crossing was on N64! Add this to the list of reasons why I regret giving away my N64 in my foolish youth. ...Only in Japan, though. It was ported to Gamecube for American and European release.
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Jan 11, 2014 15:54
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NeilPerry posted:They've been doing it since the Gamecube days. I remember a detailed post on Wii60 back in the day with all the exclusive and really good stuff that was on the Gamecube in response to 'When's the last time Nintendo consoles had new franchises?'. It's an image that is untrue but is somehow inextricably bound to them. It's mostly because none of their franchises have reached to Mario or Zelda levels. During the SNES era stuff like F-Zero and Starfox were promoted along side their other titles, which was why they're still featured in crossover games. But then a good portion of their franchises were shelved and you wound up getting stuff that didn't appeal to people. da anime bulldog posted:There's good IP that's gone abandoned that they could pick up as well, like Skies of Arcadia or Grandia. Skies of Arcadia belongs to Atlus now.
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Jan 11, 2014 16:14
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da anime bulldog posted:There's good IP that's gone abandoned that they could pick up as well, like Skies of Arcadia or Grandia. Neither of those is a Nintendo IP. They're Sega and Game Arts, respectively. NeilPerry posted:They've been doing it since the Gamecube days. I remember a detailed post on Wii60 back in the day with all the exclusive and really good stuff that was on the Gamecube in response to 'When's the last time Nintendo consoles had new franchises?'. It's an image that is untrue but is somehow inextricably bound to them.  (Why isn't Endless Ocean on there, and where's my Endless Ocean U at, Nintendo?)
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Jan 11, 2014 16:51
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Dexie posted:
Because Endless Ocean started on the playstation as Everblue.
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Jan 11, 2014 17:11
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The Taint Reaper posted:It's mostly because none of their franchises have reached to Mario or Zelda levels. During the SNES era stuff like F-Zero and Starfox were promoted along side their other titles, which was why they're still featured in crossover games. But then a good portion of their franchises were shelved and you wound up getting stuff that didn't appeal to people. This is basically the problem. During the same time ("since 2001" according to the excessive infograph from Dexie above), Sony and Microsoft (and many third parties) have aggressively pushed all sorts of new IPs, which also had big advertising pushes to help them become the monsters that they are today. Even some brand new IPs which have sold well in the last generation may now be abandoned (like God of War or Gears of War) due to a decline in sales, but probably not without some other new IP(s) aggressively pushed to take the reins. Or you talk about Geist or Xenoblade Chronicles.
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Jan 11, 2014 17:13
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Chocolate Teapot posted:This is basically the problem. During the same time ("since 2001" according to the excessive infograph from Dexie above), Sony and Microsoft (and many third parties) have aggressively pushed all sorts of new IPs, which also had big advertising pushes to help them become the monsters that they are today. Even some brand new IPs which have sold well in the last generation may now be abandoned (like God of War or Gears of War) due to a decline in sales, but probably not without some other new IP(s) aggressively pushed to take the reins. Fire Emblem has probably been more promoted overall than Xenoblade. But FE started way back on the SNES and only came to America on the GBA. Hell most people don't even know what Xenoblade is because Gamestop was the only place that sold it in America.
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Jan 11, 2014 17:15
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Fire Emblem actually started out on the NES. Also I think Xenoblade sold pretty well considering it was an exclusive but there's no way to know the numbers.
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Jan 11, 2014 17:25
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Louisgod posted:Fire Emblem actually started out on the NES. Also I think Xenoblade sold pretty well considering it was an exclusive but there's no way to know the numbers. Yeah I hope that Xenoblade did well because they're taking their sweet time with X and it's probably one of the few really worthwhile games on the Wii. I could live with Xenoblade getting a dozen or so installments. But we're not even up to the second one if/when it comes out.
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Jan 11, 2014 17:33
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Avalanche posted:I'm just curious as to how long Nintendo can last by just pushing forward reiterations of old IPs. When was the last time Nintendo actually attempted to try a game based around a new cast of characters in a new universe? The only example I can think of is Jet Force Gemini which was an N64 title. Since then, it has just been rehash after rehash while indie studios have been partially filling in the gap with simple, fun, and interesting games with the downside of low production values due to budget. Not every game is going to be a Mario or Zelda. I personally didn't realize that Pushmo was a 1st party game for quite some time
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Jan 11, 2014 17:49
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Avalanche posted:I've always viewed Nintendo games as filling this weird, creative nitch that MS, Sony, and PC developers never bothered touching. Games that are targeted more towards children and teens, but still fun for adults. They incorporate really vibrant color palates and simple, silly but likeable characters. They are easy to pickup, easy to play, and tell a very straightforward good guy vs. bad guy narrative that's likable and completely cohesive to play through (in comparison to something like Bioshock jammed full of obscure references, and social commentary).
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Jan 11, 2014 17:55
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IIRC, part of what helped pick up Fire Emblem in terms of popularity was its inclusion in Smash Brothers, same deal for stuff like Kid Icarus. But yeah, even when Nintendo does develop new IPs, it tends to go with the model of 'see if it does well enough minimally, then push it if it gets some popularity anyway'. They push Mario because they know it already sells, Wonderful 101 got little to no advertising outside of a Nintendo Direct. On a minor note though, Glory of Heracles isn't actually a new IP - it was just the first of its series (by the same name) to actually see a release outside of Japan. Also got little to no advertising, just guess how well it did.
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Jan 11, 2014 17:59
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J-Spot posted:Honestly I think Media Molecule is poised to give Nintendo a run for their money in this department. Little Big Planet and Tearaway are exactly the kind of IP we ought to be seeing from Nintendo. If LBP had been developed for a Nintendo system Miyamoto would have stepped in and replaced Sackboy with different colored Toads, removed the level editor because they want to control the quality of levels and nixed online multiplayer with some bullshit excuse about how the game should be enjoyed by people in the same room. I really hope the next LBP gets the drat platforming physics right. 2 was a step up from the abysmal physics of the first game, but it's still a loving far cry from Rayman Legends or NSMBU.
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Jan 11, 2014 18:05
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Astro Nut posted:On a minor note though, Glory of Heracles isn't actually a new IP - it was just the first of its series (by the same name) to actually see a release outside of Japan. To be fair, I don't know if that's a title that should have got a lot of advertising. Starfy on the other hand
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Jan 11, 2014 18:47
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deadwing posted:I really hope the next LBP gets the drat platforming physics right. 2 was a step up from the abysmal physics of the first game, but it's still a loving far cry from Rayman Legends or NSMBU. The platforming in Tearaway is perfectly fine, although it is a 3D game rather than a 2D one. I've aced all the levels LBP 1, 2, PSP, and Vita, but I think the issue with the platforming comes from the fact that Sackboy has to act like a physics object, since the entire world is driven by a physics engine. Either that, or they didn't want to change how it controls in the sequel so that user-made levels from the first game would still play the same. There are tons of user-made levels that completely overhaul the game, including the art style, gameplay mechanics, and especially the platforming, so they could possibly improve it for the next game if it's not meant to be backwards compatible. I think a lot of people's issues with the game would be diminished if Sackboy could jump higher, or pull himself up from ledges.
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Jan 11, 2014 18:59
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That loving Sned posted:The platforming in Tearaway is perfectly fine, although it is a 3D game rather than a 2D one. I've aced all the levels LBP 1, 2, PSP, and Vita, but I think the issue with the platforming comes from the fact that Sackboy has to act like a physics object, since the entire world is driven by a physics engine. Either that, or they didn't want to change how it controls in the sequel so that user-made levels from the first game would still play the same. I'd be happy if they just included an Incredible Machine mode or something.
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Jan 11, 2014 19:01
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Chocolate Teapot posted:An article's just popped up on Eurogamer about an unnamed British devco's problems developing for the Wii U (up to launch). Highlights include: This was really interesting and explains the quiet drop in third-party support soon after the Wii U came out.
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Jan 11, 2014 19:11
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The Taint Reaper posted:I'd be happy if they just included an Incredible Machine mode or something. I've seen people make Rube Goldberg stages, with custom camera angles and sound effects, but making it a gameplay mode like Crayon Physics would be amazing. The game doesn't let you create objects while you're playing a stage, only put stickers on things, so I don't think it could be done in a user-made stage. Toady posted:This was really interesting and explains the quiet drop in third-party support soon after the Wii U came out. Yeah, it pretty much confirms Nintendo's treatment of third party developers and the issues they've been having with the system. That Fucking Sned fucked around with this message at 19:40 on Jan 11, 2014 |
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Jan 11, 2014 19:37
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The Taint Reaper posted:Because Endless Ocean started on the playstation as Everblue. Xenoblade started as Xenosaga/Xenogears if you want to get down to it. Bayo 2 should probably be on that list because its a Nintendo IP now, isn't it?
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Jan 11, 2014 20:40
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hubris.height posted:Bayo 2 should probably be on that list because its a Nintendo IP now, isn't it? No. They're publishing the game but I don't think they actually got the IP rights. e: Yeah just double checked, SEGA still owns Bayonetta. Nintendo does own the W101 IP though. But I doubt they'll be doing much more with that 
Crowbear fucked around with this message at 21:01 on Jan 11, 2014 |
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Jan 11, 2014 20:59
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