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I don't think Renard was really hitting on them, just trying to make them uncomfortable. That's still rather creepy of him, don't get me wrong, but a lot less than him actually lusting after preteens.
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Jan 11, 2014 17:06
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BattleCake posted:God drat I never even noticed that. That's just slimy, gently caress. The giant robot is Diego, man. And so is the robot with the sword.
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Jan 11, 2014 17:11
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SHISHKABOB posted:The giant robot is Diego, man. And so is the robot with the sword. Yeah, my reading is that Diego is essentially self-destructive after the events with Jeanne. He set things up afterwards to destroy his own reputation, with the only records he left to his creations after his death being a recording of his crimes, so that they would continue hating him after his death. Unfortunately, the robots are incapable of understanding his sense of shame and guilt. Meanwhile, in a sealed and hidden shrine, his robots act out slaying a representation of himself forever.
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Jan 11, 2014 17:21
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Why entombing this then, instead of spreading it to the world? And why instilling every robot in the court with hatred for Sir Young and his successors? Diego might have remorses, but he still feels very much like he blamed Young for his own crime. I mean, his last words are litteraly pinning everything on Young.
Iceclaw fucked around with this message at 17:28 on Jan 11, 2014 |
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Jan 11, 2014 17:24
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Iceclaw posted:Why entombing this then, instead of spreading it to the world? And why instilling every robot in the court with hatred for Sir Young and his successors? Diego might have remorses, but he still feels very much like he blamed Young for his own crime. I mean, his last words are litteraly pinning everything on Young. Well, that's the interesting thing. The recording, which makes Diego look really bad, was *not* entombed. What was entombed was the *shrine*, which paints a more positive portrayal of Diego - specifically, some sense of genuine devotion to Jeanne, and contrition over his crime. I suppose an interpretation might be that Diego wanted to take Sir Young and the rest of the Court leadership down with him.
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Jan 11, 2014 17:28
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Point taken, but his last "public" message is still a wholesale denial of his guilt. "It's Young's fault! He forced me to devise his plan!". Dude wanted to go down in history as a victim.
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Jan 11, 2014 17:31
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Iceclaw posted:Point taken, but his last "public" message is still a wholesale denial of his guilt. "It's Young's fault! He forced me to devise his plan!". Dude wanted to go down in history as a victim. Well, he could easily have deleted the videos, or heck, not made them. The robots were certainly able to understand from the recording that 'Diego condemned Jeanne to death', however he might blame Sir Young. Maybe his final message was to make him a hypocrite as well as a murderer, to finalise his own self-destruction? Maybe it was to ensure that his successors would, in time, destroy the other conspirators? Or maybe he couldn't definitively decide in the end whether or not he blamed himself, or the others?
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Jan 11, 2014 17:39
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I think it's more likely the little robot just recorded everything on it's own, probably unnoticed by everyone and unknown to Diego and the robots edited out the unimportant time spans, assuming it even needed any editing. And the giant evil robot was unambiguously Sir Young.
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Jan 11, 2014 17:41
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Whitenoise Poster posted:I think it's more likely the little robot just recorded everything on it's own, probably unnoticed by everyone and unknown to Diego and the robots edited out the unimportant time spans, assuming it even needed any editing. And the giant evil robot was unambiguously Sir Young. Note the fingers on http://www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=653 which I assume are Diego's, turning on the recording robot for the meeting. Also, it seems unlikely that the robot would be at the Court's super-sekrit archery meeting totally by coincidence (the perspective suggests it was being carried by someone, since it recorded the watch from above, and the robot itself is quite short), especially given that Diego was under orders to destroy all records of it. Fangz fucked around with this message at 17:52 on Jan 11, 2014 |
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Jan 11, 2014 17:48
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Fangz posted:Note the fingers on I think those fingers are him holding the case for the arrow. You see the same in panel two, and the open box after that.
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Jan 11, 2014 17:52
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Right. So here http://www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=775 and over the next few pages we see Jeanne being lowered down to the river, seeing her lover on the other side of the river, him swimming over and being shot while half way across. Obviously comics can compress and expand time as they see fit, especially in a flashback like this, but it appears to take place fairly quickly, and the arrow is aimed at the lover when he's part way across. This is relayed by Jeanne to the girls, through visions or some other magical means and is based on her memory. However, here http://www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=656 she is said to have been on the riverbank for THREE HOURS and the no one, including the archer, is watching the water (as he would have to be if he was planning to hit the green guy when he was part way across the river) but instead the archer takes his shot after a specific amount of time has passed. If he was going for the elf, there would definitely be someone watching the river, who would say "hey guys, the elf guy has turned up, get ready to take your shot" or whatever. He also seems to be aiming straight down, not into the middle of the river (though this could just be due to the angle of the shot and isn't definitive). This is all relayed to us through a robotic recording, so can be assumed to be the truth (if not the WHOLE truth) I don't think Tom would give us such an inconsistent story unless there was more to it. I think Jeanne is an unreliable narrator in the visions she gives to Annie and Parley, probably not knowingly but due to the nature of the enchantments/etheric shenanigans going on with the arrow. The archer did not hit the green man from the forest, in fact the green man was never even there, but hit and was aiming at Jeanne (Young says "did you hit THE TARGET", that's pretty deliberately vague), and her memories of the killing of her lover are entirely artificial, induced by the device and designed to turn her into a rage ghost. Whatever can be done to free Jeanne from this role will involve finding out what actually happened to the lover after she vanished, via Annie's connection with the forest. Hell, we don't know how long elves live, he might even still be alive, or if not, have living descendants.
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Jan 11, 2014 17:56
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The robot play is definitely Diego defeating Sir Young. It is curious that Diego brought his little recording robot to all this. Though it's possible he was just followed by a cohort of small robots all the time, like Kat tends to be, and the recording robot just happened to be among them at those times. Side-note: Jeanne's lover looks like a tree elf, like the Anwyn. Annie might have already met his descendents, if he did indeed not die down there. Tenebrais fucked around with this message at 18:02 on Jan 11, 2014 |
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Jan 11, 2014 17:57
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Another thing is that (IIRC?) Spirit-Jeanne doesn't have anything to say about Diego at all. You'd think that if she suspected (as the recording shows) Diego had something to do with it, her rage would include Diego. Instead, in her flashback, the only clear antagonism is vs the archer, Steadman. EDIT: Basically, I don't think we've seen close to the full picture of what actually happened with Jeanne. Fangz fucked around with this message at 18:05 on Jan 11, 2014 |
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Jan 11, 2014 18:01
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Fangz posted:Basically, I don't think we've seen close to the full picture of what actually happened with Jeanne. That we can all agree on.
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Jan 11, 2014 18:07
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What does Jeanne call Parley here: http://www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=779 ? "A fine stike, <something>" Just something I noticed now. Also there is something about "three hours past midnight" in the letters that she writes to her lover btw. So she might have waited 3 hours down there.
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Jan 11, 2014 18:42
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"Fille" is french for girl.
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Jan 11, 2014 18:45
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Kikas posted:What does Jeanne call Parley here: http://www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=779 ? "A fine stike, <something>" Just something I noticed now. Yes she definitely was down there for 3 hours, as noted here (http://www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=656).
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Jan 11, 2014 19:06
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Kikas posted:Also there is something about "three hours past midnight" in the letters that she writes to her lover btw. So she might have waited 3 hours down there. Huh, you're right (though it's in his letters to her, her paper is white, his is blue). There goes my theory  . Even so, there's obviously a lot we don't know, and I'm looking forward to seeing some of the gaps filled in and inconsistencies explained.
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Jan 11, 2014 19:47
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Kikas posted:Also there is something about "three hours past midnight" in the letters that she writes to her lover btw. So she might have waited 3 hours down there. Look carefully at the color of the paper, the "three hours past midnight" there is from the letter brought by the bird (the slightly greenish paper). She writes on the other paper, the slightly pinkish one. The only word of hers we can read is "escape". Also she remembers that Diego was a creep. Tenebrais posted:"Fille" is french for girl. Though it's kinda awkward to use it like this. She should have called her "jeune fille" instead, I guess. From the sequence, it seems Ysengrin's belligerence and Young's paranoia prompted Coyote to act and split the Court and Forest apart. Cat Mattress fucked around with this message at 19:54 on Jan 11, 2014 |
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Jan 11, 2014 19:51
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I think you are reading a lot out of some deliberately very vague and abstract pages.
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Jan 11, 2014 20:00
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Has Reynardine had anything to say about Jeanne? He never seems to be around when the subject comes up. He was in the forest by the time she died.
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Jan 11, 2014 20:23
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When they discovered Diego's shrine he made some inferences based on her portrait, suggesting he didn't know her back then. It could have been a ruse?
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Jan 11, 2014 20:34
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Well, also Coyote can delete their memories at will.
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Jan 11, 2014 21:18
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Jeanne's lover sent her a letter by bird (not the bird pictured here, though) saying they'd meet and escape three hours after midnight. Steadman the archer sent her response back by arrow, but he looks like he knows something's up at this stage. The Court must've ordered Jeanne to go to the Annan at midnight, which had her panicking that they knew about her plans to escape or something (cue going to Diego for advice). The Court disperses so the elf can emerge from the forest and make his own way down without thinking something's up, then come back on the appointed hour to shoot him.
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Jan 11, 2014 21:19
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Fangz posted:I think it's awfully convenient that the recording robot recorded only that exact sequence of videos. It would not surprise me if what we've seen so far is only part of the story, and someone (Diego himself in a fit of self-hatred?) edited it to cut out something important. I expresed that sentiment in a chatroom years ago and was accused of "siding with Diego".  We did end up learning more about those events. For example, it was initially assumed the arrow merely shot Jeanne, but now we know it actually shot her lover and left her to a much worse fate than death. Obviously there are still many mysteries to clear up, but that's the nature of this comic.
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Jan 11, 2014 22:19
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If they wanted to just kill someone, I wonder why Diego had to craft such a special arrow to do so. I don't think it simply kills the target (especially since the end isn't even sharp).
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Jan 11, 2014 22:54
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IUG posted:If they wanted to just kill someone, I wonder why Diego had to craft such a special arrow to do so. I don't think it simply kills the target (especially since the end isn't even sharp). It kept her from leaving the riverbed. Possibly it still does.
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Jan 11, 2014 23:13
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I'm more wondering why they shot Bosmer Dan instead of Jeanne with it. Unless this is one of those things like how Black Mage's Hadoken spell runs on love ("Every time I cast it, the divorce rate goes up"), and they needed to harness the love she felt for him and the anguish caused by seeing him die to properly create a murderghost.
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Jan 11, 2014 23:13
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Dr. Buttass posted:they needed to harness the love she felt for him and the anguish caused by seeing him die to properly create a murderghost.
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Jan 11, 2014 23:16
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JT Jag posted:She probably need to die slowly and in emotional agony to make a proper murderghost. A quick shot from an arrow wouldn't have done the job. This raises two increasingly worrying questions: how did the Court know about murderghosts? And how did they know what the correct method to make one was?
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Jan 11, 2014 23:58
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seravid posted:This raises two increasingly worrying questions: how did the Court know about murderghosts? And how did they know what the correct method to make one was? The UK is hardly short on murderghosts. Just poke around some castles.
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Jan 12, 2014 00:14
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Honestly there are a lot of things that the early Court knew that are equally as puzzling, if not quite as grim.
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Jan 12, 2014 00:17
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Tollymain posted:Honestly there are a lot of things that the early Court knew that are equally as puzzling, if not quite as grim.
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Jan 12, 2014 00:18
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seravid posted:This raises two increasingly worrying questions: how did the Court know about murderghosts? And how did they know what the correct method to make one was? More precisely, how did Diego know how to create murderghosts? The probable answer is that he was a creepy, creepy genius.
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Jan 12, 2014 01:01
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Cat Mattress posted:More precisely, how did Diego know how to create murderghosts? The probable answer is that he was a creepy, creepy genius. Well, keep in mind that the original robots, his creations, eventually turned out to be golems. So he's got some arcane knowledge.
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Jan 12, 2014 01:18
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My mad speculation is that Coyote was involved. Both sides wanted the rift to be put in place, so both sides had their roles to play.
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Jan 12, 2014 01:37
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Tenebrais posted:The robot play is definitely Diego defeating Sir Young. Welp 
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Jan 12, 2014 01:40
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Fangz posted:Well, that's the interesting thing. The recording, which makes Diego look really bad, was *not* entombed. What was entombed was the *shrine*, which paints a more positive portrayal of Diego - specifically, some sense of genuine devotion to Jeanne, and contrition over his crime.
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Jan 12, 2014 02:13
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Maybe the lil' robot was like a TiVo and recorded stuff people might find interesting on his own. Diego just liked carrying him around.
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Jan 12, 2014 05:42
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Blackheart posted:Maybe the lil' robot was like a TiVo and recorded stuff people might find interesting on his own. Diego just liked carrying him around. Record Jeanne one time and suddenly it's recording every drat thing that's got to do with her. Surprised it didn't also log eighteen hours of footage of things with arrows on them
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Jan 12, 2014 06:11
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