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Orv posted:
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Jan 11, 2014 18:02
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A big issue I am seeing with this is that it is stupid to try and enforce this poo poo. Mods by legal definition fall under different rules and regulations than other computerized content. It is all derivative works and there are protected rights that everyone has in regards to fair use of derivative works (at least in the US). My big issue is if I want to make a modified version of someone's mod, legally I do not have to say poo poo to them, giving credit to the original mod author is a good thing, I can agree with that, but anything beyond that is not required of me by law. Basically, why should I care about someone's "moral rights" when my "legal rights" as dictated by derivative work and fair use laws are being shat on constantly. Again, this system creates a hell of a lot more issues than the original system of "If you post your mods here you give people the right to modify them": -No accountability for biased permission giving. (Oh, I disliked a post I saw you made on the forums/you belong to a group I dislike, you cannot get permissions from me/I'm revoking the permissions I gave you and now your poo poo is gone." -No contingency for what happens if a mod changes its permission stance later on. -No contingency for what happens if a mod author drops off the face of the earth and his mod is set to "Needs to ask for permission". Under the current rules no one would be able to maintain the mod for others to enjoy in the future. -Totally unenforceable outside the Chucklefish forums which is only going to create more and more threads on the official forums of "ILLEGAL MOD PACKS ON THIS SITE, MY MORAL RIGHTS ARE BEING INFRINGED ON!" It is a lovely system that is very broken, that is what my main complaint is. It is also very telling that the system is broken because people are throwing words around like "theft" and "plagiarism" and having to compare mods to loving houses because if they actually compare mods to what they are, derivative works, then all their arguments suddenly cave in on themselves. As others have said, this is something we've been dealing with in Skyrim, Minecraft, and other games and it always leads to lovely mod communities where eventually modders get it into their heads that they are first class citizens and everyone else is the loving poors who should praise their very presence. On an ironic note, Mojang is starting to actually come around on their EULA for mods and use of others mods to the point where the EULA can easily be taken as "shits derivative works, have at it" as well as one of the Devs correcting someone in IRC that, no, people can do whatever the gently caress they want with your mods.
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Jan 11, 2014 18:04
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GENUINE CAT HERDER posted:Honestly, the only thing that I think is slightly off with the race is calling them "Skellies" from the get-go. When I saw them I thought that maybe it should the race name should be "The Skellis" or something sort of proud and formal sounding, but then all of the other races end up referring to them as "Skellies". This in turn is then viewed by the skeletons as a somewhat derogative term for their noble '90s era race and thus adding to the weird racial tension that already exists between all of the current races Nekropunk.
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Jan 11, 2014 18:04
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Lallander posted:Indeed. Yeah, this is how's it's been done for a long time, and it's how it should be. If someone wants to be an rear end in a top hat and claim your work, than report them to the proper authorities like the Mod Forum Moderators, or whatever. You shouldn't have to ask, but you should at least want to. It's just courtesy.
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Jan 11, 2014 18:07
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Enzer posted:[Good detailed argument] Thanks, a lot of that was helpful. Lallander posted:If you don't want people to use your mod then it is very simple. Don't release it. For everyone else it would be cool if you gave them a heads up that you were putting their work into a pack. I was thinking about something like that too. Don't worry about permission BS, but just let people know where their mods are being used. That's doesn't seem like so much to ask. You could even easily make it automated so that if you include someone else's mod, they get a notification on their Starbound account letting 'em know what's up. It could even be kinda useful, since non-lovely mod authors could keep in contact with mod packers and help make sure their version is up to date, help them resolve conflicts, etc.
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Jan 11, 2014 18:11
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XboxPants posted:I was thinking about something like that too. Don't worry about permission BS, but just let people know where their mods are being used. That's doesn't seem like so much to ask. You could even easily make it automated so that if you include someone else's mod, they get a notification on their Starbound account letting 'em know what's up. This is literally what it was two days ago. If you use someone's mod, give credit and link back to the mod's page. If they had implemented the tag feature that lets mod authors know which pack has their mod then, that would have been great, as you said. But now we have this mess. 
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Jan 11, 2014 18:15
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Modpacks: Serious business. I know about [timg] but I ain't usin it, this image should never be shrunk Edit: These are the kind of people that are influencing policies, simply by being the loudest. We shouldn't let them get their way, ever.
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Jan 11, 2014 18:18
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Desideratus posted:Modpacks: Serious business. I know about [timg] but I ain't usin it, this image should never be shrunk Bwahahaha. Five bucks says the guy is a fan of Flowerchild, who used the argument of "My creative work and moral rights are being raped!" when someone attempted to make a derivative work that was actually compatible with anything (for those not in the know, FC's mod followed bad modding policies that made it more or less incompatible with any mod), it eventually got to the point where he was getting his fans to use "NO MEANS NO" and other anti-rape slogan poo poo in their forums signatures. Countdown till someone compares fighting for "modder rights" to be the same for the fight for women's suffrage. Also, isn't that the jerkwad whose being accused of using threats and poo poo to scare away people making mod packs? Edit: What thread is that from, I can't seem to find the post, loving hilarious. Enzer fucked around with this message at 18:32 on Jan 11, 2014 |
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Jan 11, 2014 18:28
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Yea, so if you have mods in your mod pack that say you can't include them just host them somewhere other than the main modding depository. Its really lovely that the Starbound devs are contributing to the shittiness of permissions in modding and just using peoples' loving mods, this weird poo poo is a cancer to modding and I can't wait until the next generation of modders doesn't think they're going to make a million off of their dragon dildos or whatever.
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Jan 11, 2014 18:30
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Enzer posted:Also, isn't that the jerkwad whose being accused of using threats and poo poo to scare away people making mod packs? Just FYI as awful as this guy clearly is this turned out to be unfounded, the creator took it down as his own choice without any external fuckery.
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Jan 11, 2014 18:33
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Whoever posted the Wrye paper on the Starbound forums is a cool guy. Wrye is a cool guy. Give it a read. http://wryemusings.com/Cathedral%20vs.%20Parlor.html
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Jan 11, 2014 18:38
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Smarmy Coworker posted:Whoever posted the Wrye paper on the Starbound forums is a cool guy. Wrye is a cool guy. Give it a read.  if someone abandons a mod completely, than remake your own
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Jan 11, 2014 18:44
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Babe Magnet posted:
god that guy is a huge idiot. Also taking someone's art (sprite work in his/her example) is something else entirely 
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Jan 11, 2014 18:49
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So the optimal solution to an unsupported mod is to completely recreate your own, wasting both your own time because the base for what you are trying to do already exists and making it so all the work the original author put into it was useless.
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Jan 11, 2014 18:50
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Babe Magnet posted:if someone abandons a mod completely, than remake your own Yep, this kind of thinking is about par for the course. These assholes don't see game mods as a way to improve the experience for everyone, only as a way to get other internet nerds to fellate their ego. I think we're past the point of no return from the golden age of modding- I remember none of this bullshit ever happening way back in the day when I was heavy into the HL1 and CS modding scenes. Whatever, that's a rant better saved for the Awful Mods thread. I just know I'm only ever going to be using goon made mods or mods hosted only on the Workshop when it goes up.
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Jan 11, 2014 18:51
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djw175 posted:I really don't get why people are do annoyed at this. It placates the idiots and doesn't really effect cool people. Why is it such a big loving deal? Tell me: when in history has placation ever worked? All it does is make people push for more.
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Jan 11, 2014 18:53
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On the one hand I appreciate that Chucklefish are trying to set reasonable, enforcable guidelines but on the other hand there's a reason why most big companies don't get involved with their modders - It's a surefire way to have your people/forum mods burn out from all the retardation they have to deal with. In a sense, modders and the Nexus deserve each other.
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Jan 11, 2014 18:59
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Smarmy Coworker posted:Whoever posted the Wrye paper on the Starbound forums is a cool guy. Wrye is a cool guy. Give it a read. The only thing that threw me at first was the use of the Cathedral analogy for his preferred community. Mainly because of this. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Cathedral_and_the_Bazaar Good read from the Wrye paper though.
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Jan 11, 2014 19:00
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Starbound - Modders raped my baby.
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Jan 11, 2014 19:03
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Smarmy Coworker posted:Whoever posted the Wrye paper on the Starbound forums is a cool guy. Wrye is a cool guy. Give it a read. That paper is a great read, thanks! Check it out if you haven't. (also, writing a high-quality, semi-formal treatise on Morrowind modding? oh, you elder scrolls community  )
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Jan 11, 2014 19:08
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There were problems here and there with the morrowind modding community, but it was nowhere near as bad as the one that sprung up around oblivion and every subsequent bethesda game.
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Jan 11, 2014 19:21
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Smarmy Coworker posted:Also taking someone's art (sprite work in his/her example) is something else entirely Yeah, that's my angle on it - my Estus Flask mod uses spritework that I explicitly sought out permission for (and received), so I'm flagging that as "do not modify the assets". Sadly there's no more finesse to it than that, but whatever. My Oxystones and Seaforium, on the other hand, use and modify to your heart's content. v  v
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Jan 11, 2014 19:24
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Well, just before I went to bed last night, I saw Molly's post about the radio boxes and set my mod to "ask permission" with a note attached saying I'd be unlikely to say no, it was just so I could be in the loop if someone did something really cool. Then I wake up to find I'm on the axis of evil. I mean, I get that in an ideal world, companies would just post a giant flashing "gently caress OFF" gif in response to any complaint and/or drama on their forums and everyone involved would learn to be a better person as a result but we don't live in that ideal world, so is it really worth getting bent out of shape over?
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Jan 11, 2014 19:27
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Pilchenstein posted:Well, just before I went to bed last night, I saw Molly's post about the radio boxes and set my mod to "ask permission" with a note attached saying I'd be unlikely to say no, it was just so I could be in the loop if someone did something really cool. Then I wake up to find I'm on the axis of evil. Having seen what modders' rights bullshit did to Minecraft? Yes. Yes it is.
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Jan 11, 2014 19:29
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And Skyrim. And STALKER. And Oblivion. And Total War.
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Jan 11, 2014 19:32
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Ah yes, modder's rights. Where is MLK when we need him? Oh right he dead. Dragon dicks make him roll over in he grave
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Jan 11, 2014 19:37
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NihilVerumNisiMors posted:On the one hand I appreciate that Chucklefish are trying to set reasonable, enforcable guidelines but on the other hand there's a reason why most big companies don't get involved with their modders - It's a surefire way to have your people/forum mods burn out from all the retardation they have to deal with. One thing that made me happy is to see a lot of people on the official forums as well are open antagonistic of the modders rights thing. I don't think anyone wants a repeat of Skyrim/Minecraft modding, so I think anyone that causes drama will just be pushed aside by the community. This game is so modding friendly that anyone that tries to restrict their mod will probably just find that someone else will make an open alternative.
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Jan 11, 2014 19:45
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Holy lord these people are dumb as poo poo but it's fun to talk them into admitting what's really got them is NOT BEING RESPECTED.
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Jan 11, 2014 19:52
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Any community should squash  Modder's Rights assholes on sight. They are like cancer that kills modding, turning it into abominations like Nexus or Minecraft modding community.
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Jan 11, 2014 19:53
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The Mattybee posted:Holy lord these people are dumb as poo poo but it's fun to talk them into admitting what's really got them is NOT BEING RESPECTED. And getting them to admit that all they care about is MY NUMBER OF DOWNLOADS AND LIKES/RECOMMENDATIONS/WHATEVER THE gently caress SB CALLS THEM.  And getting them to claim that that is one of the main drives that gets people to mod. Still have yet to get any of them to tell me if they honestly think that modding would die if Chucklefish removed the listing for download numbers and recommendations.
Enzer fucked around with this message at 19:57 on Jan 11, 2014 |
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Jan 11, 2014 19:54
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The people who whined hard enough to get Chucklefish to make that rule don't care about having a good modding community or having their mods used and enjoyed, they just want a circlejerk to boost their sense of self worth. You can't discuss things rationally with people like that.
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Jan 11, 2014 19:57
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I feel like most of these idiots dont have the technical knowhow to make mods or the artistic capability to do sprite art
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Jan 11, 2014 19:58
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The Mattybee posted:Having seen what modders' rights bullshit did to Minecraft? Babe Magnet posted:And Skyrim.
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Jan 11, 2014 19:59
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The majority of mods that will have this restriction will be trivial to re-create. You can look at the mod files and unless it contains a vast quantity of artwork it shouldn't take too long to make your own version of what ever it is that you think would work well in your pack. Get yourself a pixel artist and you're unstoppable. The entitled modders end up with functional duplicates of their work so all the "no modpacks" option does is make their mod substandard and the alternative far more popular.
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Jan 11, 2014 20:05
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nigga crab pollock posted:I feel like most of these idiots dont have the technical knowhow to make mods or the artistic capability to do sprite art Ah yes, the forever useful "ideas guys"
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Jan 11, 2014 20:06
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Pilchenstein posted:...and the "I'm not modding anymore until this injustice is righted" crowd are being overly dramatic. What a good thing then, that no one in this thread has said that. 
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Jan 11, 2014 20:20
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Pilchenstein posted:Well, just before I went to bed last night, I saw Molly's post about the radio boxes and set my mod to "ask permission" with a note attached saying I'd be unlikely to say no, it was just so I could be in the loop if someone did something really cool. Then I wake up to find I'm on the axis of evil. Yeah I set mine to that, literally because I want to see whatever fun stuff comes out of modding my mod. Though I'm worried having a big old warning up there will make people not want to bother asking me. Maybe I should leave a note too. That said it's really sad to see a rule of "don't be assholes" have to be clarified further. Most people I've encountered or heard from have been pretty chill which really seems like the way to go. Though it would be funny as hell if this resulted in some stupid mass exodus like with "Gategate" because I really don't think the average player gives a poo poo about petty Mod drama unless there is plagiarism involved and probably not that much then, either. Anyway Chucklefish have said they will look after anyone who has anything stolen and have gone against adfly bullshit, so what more can you ask for really? It's not worth worrying about until someone actually does steal someone's work anyway.
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Jan 11, 2014 20:22
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Shoehead posted:"Gategate" 
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Jan 11, 2014 20:38
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What amuses me is that the original modding scene has never had these problems. Quake and Unreal and their descendants have always had active, supportive mod communities. Don't get me wrong there have been the occasional slapfights but there has never been a culture of "this is my creation, don't you even think of touching it or it's DMCA time motherfucker." It's a completely different culture and a heck of a lot more fun to get involved in.
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Jan 11, 2014 20:53
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By the way guys, I'd recommend checking out my most recent post in the Starbound IRC information thread in the PGS forum. Tell all your goon pals as well.
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Jan 11, 2014 20:55
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