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redshirt posted:Coulson was in HEA-VEN! Son of Coul was in Valhalla, balls deep in a Valkyrie. Sorry cellist, what happens in Asgard stays in Asgard.
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Jan 10, 2014 01:47
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jscolon2.0 posted:Son of Coul was in Valhalla, balls deep in a Valkyrie. Sorry cellist, what happens in Asgard stays in Asgard. Maybe he still is. Maybe the resurrected Coulson is merely simulacra, a copy lacking its original essence because his soul never returned. Maybe his actions now no longer matter, because the part of him that mattered died long ago. Or, alternately, in the season finale Coulson wins a hot dog eating contest vs. the Clairvoyant, and FitzSimmons build a sassy robot friend to spice up season 2.
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Jan 10, 2014 03:01
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Irish Joe posted:People like Whedon, Abrams and Loeb aren't hired because they're brilliant auteurs, they're hired because they can consistently churn out a serviceable product that meets expectations. Wait, what? Every one of his shows outside of Buffy had to fight tooth and nail to avoid cancellation, most of them failing. Even Buffy had to switch networks after it was effectively cancelled.
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Jan 10, 2014 05:10
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There's a lot of discussion of the 'reveal' of this episode and I think it's worth considering that if that was actually a revelation, then I am totally on board with everyone being really disappointed. The issue I have with taking it at face value is that Whedon doesn't have a history of making any inroads on the arching plots early in the first season, and in fact I recall him saying on an episode commentary that a general rule of thumb in showrunning was to treat the first ten episodes of a new series as the pilot over and over again. He meant in terms of rehashing exposition and continually establishing the characters into their archetypes without much character development that might confuse newcomers to the show, but I think it definitely has to also apply to the 'mystery' plots. Take a look at Dollhouse and remember how incredibly disappointed with it everyone was. I think even the harshest critic of Agents of Shield will admit that Dollhouse loving sucked. Now remember how much of a loop they threw everyone for with Epitaph One. Now remember who wrote it. I'm not saying I am sure that things will get better, but I am saying that I have not expected any interesting developments at all from this series until after they came back from the break. Try to think of the first ten episodes as having been prologue. The show started with this episode. I don't think they would blow their wad right away and make the weird brain surgery the big reveal. There's more. Part of me suspects that maybe they knew Coulson wouldn't be satisfied by an answer he was just given if he didn't believe it, so they concocted the Tahiti story as just the first of several layers of deception, and then fed Dr. Book enough information to feed Coulson a story intended to make him think he'd learned the horrifying truth, when in fact it is just another deception because the actual story is way too hosed up.
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Jan 10, 2014 05:37
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IllustriousChen posted:Could the whole bringing Coulson back from the dead idea be a lead up to the Winter Soldier film and how Bucky is going to be re-introduced? This would tie in with the "we use this to market our huge movies". Also, I don't think it would be just pain or trauma that would bring Coulson low. What if the procedure caused pain and death to otherwise innocent people? His new life powered by the heart of a forsaken child or something else as comically evil. Something like that would probably have him begging them to not bring him back.
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Jan 10, 2014 06:37
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Javid posted:Now I like the idea that they ripped him back from Valhalla in the middle of a mead-drinking contest with a bunch of Asgardian warriors, and he woke up yelling I WAS WINNING YOU FUCKERS SEND ME BACK There kinda was that implication with the starfield. It would be an interesting moral dilemma if the technology that was used was reversed engineered from Zola's tech. We saw the plans for his robot in Cap, so if they have Hyrda blasters they could have other hydra tech.
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Jan 10, 2014 07:20
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twistedmentat posted:There kinda was that implication with the starfield. Psssh...lookit this guy! Obviously they used the Stargate to get him to a goa'uld sarcophagus. Ah-doy!!!
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Jan 10, 2014 07:22
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Olibu posted:Wait, what? Every one of his shows outside of Buffy had to fight tooth and nail to avoid cancellation, most of them failing. Even Buffy had to switch networks after it was effectively cancelled. Whedon is on everybody's shitlist now because he made something successful.
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Jan 10, 2014 07:44
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Olibu posted:Wait, what? Every one of his shows outside of Buffy had to fight tooth and nail to avoid cancellation, most of them failing. Even Buffy had to switch networks after it was effectively cancelled. Firefly was a victim of a network that marketed it as "Action cowboys and hookers IN SPACE AND BEING BADASS" using this song in the promos https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cBVeNQ-mtcY then airing the shows out of ordering and changing the air dates on the fly. Dollhouse getting 2 seasons was Fox apologizing for how badly they mangled Firefly. I don't Buffy was ever close to cancellation. It did tremendously well on The WB and got tons of great press. The switch was when the show came up for contract renewal and UPN offered a way better deal. It also seems to only have ended when SMG decided to quit.
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Jan 10, 2014 08:15
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Keshik posted:The issue I have with taking it at face value is that Whedon doesn't have a history of making any inroads on the arching plots early in the first season, and in fact I recall him saying on an episode commentary that a general rule of thumb in showrunning was to treat the first ten episodes of a new series as the pilot over and over again. He meant in terms of rehashing exposition and continually establishing the characters into their archetypes without much character development that might confuse newcomers to the show, but I think it definitely has to also apply to the 'mystery' plots. While I can imagine that someone out there thinks this is sage advice, it sounds pretty loving stupid to me. Seriously, at first it was "you can't judge a show by the first few episodes!" (fine), now it's "you can't judge a show by the first half of the season!" (wait, what?), and I'm expecting the inevitable "you can't judge a show by its first season!" I mean, it's not that shows don't improve, sometimes dramatically, at various points throughout their run. Revolution's first season was trash but I guess the second season is actually pretty good now? People who recommend Spartacus say that the first handful of episodes are kind of rough but then it takes off. A lot of people seem to find Person of Interest's first half of S1 a slog to go through. But the thing about this sort of excuse is it only works in retrospect, when you have something good to point at and go "see, this is what things were building to, isn't this awesome?" Until that happens all you've got is the televisual equivalent of the check being in the mail.
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Jan 10, 2014 09:21
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jscolon2.0 posted:Son of Coul was in Valhalla, balls deep in a Valkyrie. Sorry cellist, what happens in Asgard stays in Asgard. I'm betting that's halfway what it was. The colourful space background reminiscent of Asgard, Fury quoted as "moving Heaven and Earth to bring him back". Sounds like somebody asgardian was involved.
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Jan 10, 2014 10:05
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I wouldn't continue to watch a show just in the hopes of it getting good. I hope and expect that Shield gets better, because there are a lot of shows that I love now, that were just ok at first, or even only had an ok first season. Anyone who doesn't like Shield now, would probably be better off not watching it, they could spend that time doing something they like, and it would make this thread better.
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Jan 10, 2014 10:10
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All I know is if I died a violent death then people moved heaven and Earth resurrecting me for 8 days, then on top of that nuked all my horrible memories of the experience and made me remember a great vacation, I think I'd be more thankful and amazed than pissed and brooding.pentyne posted:Dollhouse getting 2 seasons was Fox apologizing for how badly they mangled Firefly. Dollhouse was a show with a very interesting "upper concept" and an amazing supporting cast. That chose to throw all that out for the majority of the show's run in favor of a woman with the acting capability of cardboard and negative charisma and keep throwing stories of the week at her. Seriously. The supporting cast was great. I want to see them all do more things. Deshku or whatever should just... get out of acting, drat it. I still hold the show would have been far more compelling if her role was swapped with one of the other actress, but it was her vehicle (the show was made FOR her, apparently) and yeah.. no getting around that poo poo. The episodes without her were actually really good. The whole thing is angering because the whole point of the show came about in a freaking unaired episode, when it turns out it was about how they'd bring about the apocalypse, but you'd never, ever, EVER get that from any of the episodes that made people give up, or the ones immediately after. It seemed like a groan-inducing attempt to redo La Femme Nikita with a one-liner spouting "badass lead" and failing terribly until that revelation. pentyne posted:Firefly was a victim of a network that marketed it as "Action cowboys and hookers IN SPACE AND BEING BADASS" using this song in the promos https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cBVeNQ-mtcY then airing the shows out of ordering and changing the air dates on the fly. Firefly was also victim of the network looking at the awesome pilot and going "Nope!" resulting in the first episode being when they rob the train full of Starship Troopers instead. It's not a terrible episode and has a few classic moments in it, but it was a horrible FIRST episode, since it plays on already established serialized characters. It was also done on almost no time, because they had to basically re-shoot a pilot at the last second. So yeah. They were shooting their feet before they even got out of the gate with Firefly. In a way I half am wondering if it was for the best, because in my opinion we got a show with only one weak episode Heart of Gold, because is was painfully heavy handed - and even that episode has some good moments. Then we got an amazing series finale with the movie. If it had gone on, it might have fallen apart. Blazing Ownager fucked around with this message at 10:28 on Jan 10, 2014 |
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Jan 10, 2014 10:16
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Keshik posted:Take a look at Dollhouse and remember how incredibly disappointed with it everyone was. I think even the harshest critic of Agents of Shield will admit that Dollhouse loving sucked. Now remember how much of a loop they threw everyone for with Epitaph One. Now remember who wrote it. I absolutely am not discounting the possibility of AoS getting better at some point, but it's not strange to talk about any problems with stuff we've already seen.
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Jan 10, 2014 10:32
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Dollhouse took a lead actress who was nowhere near capable or performing at the level required for someone assuming a wholly different role weekly and depended on her way too much. As an example of how incredibly better the main cast was, late season 2 Victor (Enver Gjokaj) had to assume the identity of another main cast member for a bit and nailed it so well it was like watching the original actor in a perfect CGI skinsuit.
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Jan 10, 2014 10:51
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Keshik posted:Take a look at Dollhouse and remember how incredibly disappointed with it everyone was. I think even the harshest critic of Agents of Shield will admit that Dollhouse loving sucked. Now remember how much of a loop they threw everyone for with Epitaph One. Now remember who wrote it. They scripted it based on Joss Whedon's plot, though.
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Jan 10, 2014 12:19
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Oasx posted:Anyone who doesn't like Shield now, would probably be better off not watching it, they could spend that time doing something they like, and it would make this thread better. Wish I could emptyquote this, over and over, for a page or two.
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Jan 10, 2014 13:03
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Blazing Ownager posted:All I know is if I died a violent death then people moved heaven and Earth resurrecting me for 8 days, then on top of that nuked all my horrible memories of the experience and made me remember a great vacation, I think I'd be more thankful and amazed than pissed and brooding. I feel like you're not seeing the forest for the trees. He wasn't just remembering the nice vacation - he was waking up in cold sweats because he was already remembering the lovely parts. He was displaying a strange vocal tic he couldn't control. On top of that, his already notably shady employers were caught in lies about what happened and then hid information from him in a way the show commented on as being a Weird Thing. Oasx posted:I wouldn't continue to watch a show just in the hopes of it getting good. I hope and expect that Shield gets better, because there are a lot of shows that I love now, that were just ok at first, or even only had an ok first season. Basically this - show isn't going to convert anyone in its current state. Levantine fucked around with this message at 15:00 on Jan 10, 2014 |
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Jan 10, 2014 13:11
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Oasx posted:Anyone who doesn't like Shield now, would probably be better off not watching it, they could spend that time doing something they like, and it would make this thread better. yes, please go away so the rest of us can watch Coulson's character development in peace.
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Jan 10, 2014 14:30
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Irish Joe posted:People like Whedon, Abrams and Loeb aren't hired because they're brilliant auteurs, they're hired because they can consistently churn out a serviceable product that meets expectations. I get that for Whedon and Abrams, but with Loeb it HAS to be that he knows where all the bodies are buried. Even the sympathy because his kid died must have run out by now.
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Jan 10, 2014 14:48
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Blazing Ownager posted:a woman with the acting capability of cardboard and negative charisma and keep throwing stories of the week at her. Imagine if they had Tatiana Maslany back then. She's amazing in Orphan Black. EDIT: \/ Great minds think alike I guess. Maslany is just amazing and making you believe she is these different people despite them looking alike. Mokinokaro fucked around with this message at 15:44 on Jan 10, 2014 |
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Jan 10, 2014 15:01
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pentyne posted:Dollhouse took a lead actress who was nowhere near capable or performing at the level required for someone assuming a wholly different role weekly and depended on her way too much. Imagine Dollhouse, but with Tatiana Maslany from Orphan Black instead of Dushku. That probably would have been way better. Dollhouse did eventually get interesting, but it was too late by that point - and I agree, the supporting cast of Dollhouse was so much better than it's lead. With SHIELD and the Coulson thing, there has to be more to his resurrection than what they are telling us so far, otherwise it doesn't make sense given the amount of secrecy involved. I still think it's possible that the current Coulson is a robot/clone/whatever, basically there has to be some kind of dark secret involved, because otherwise why are they keeping this secret from him. Also, it's odd that they expended the resources to revive the guy, because even though he's likeable by the fans, in-universe he's just a bit player - I really hope there is a good reason for his revival that goes beyond "we just wanted to make a show with him."
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Jan 10, 2014 15:21
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imperialparadox posted:I really hope there is a good reason for his revival that goes beyond "we just wanted to make a show with him." I'm sure that Gregg was happy to reprise the character but suspect it was closer to "he was the only character with a speaking role from the films we were allowed to use/could afford."
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Jan 10, 2014 15:36
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Snowglobe of Doom posted:I'm sure that Gregg was happy to reprise the character but suspect it was closer to "he was the only character with a speaking role from the films we were allowed to use/could afford." I think he'll take any opportunity to play Coulson. He does all the voice work in any media he appears in (games, cartoons, whatever). Agent (principal) Coulson is one of the best parts of Ultimate Spiderman IMO.
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Jan 10, 2014 15:40
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Snowglobe of Doom posted:I'm sure that Gregg was happy to reprise the character but suspect it was closer to "he was the only character with a speaking role from the films we were allowed to use/could afford." Maybe, but Coulson did have a pretty vocal fanbase from the films, and they could have easily gone with a completely new agent (maybe even one with a history, like Quartermain). Also, Clark Gregg is a good actor, so its not like it was a huge compromise on ABC/Disney's part to cast him as the lead for the show. imperialparadox posted:Imagine Dollhouse, but with Tatiana Maslany from Orphan Black instead of Dushku. That probably would have been way better. Dollhouse did eventually get interesting, but it was too late by that point - and I agree, the supporting cast of Dollhouse was so much better than it's lead. I suspect the manner of his death will have some relevance to why/how he was brought back. He got stabbed through the chest by a spear containing an alien artifact of considerable power that had previously been used to mindfuck people with just a touch. Coulson's innards had intimate contact with said power source, and maybe that changed something about him. It might even be something not immediately detectable by current technology (or whatever passes for current technology in the MCU). That's probably what I would go with if I were writing the show. I think its a more interesting proposition than having something nebulous in his past (Inhumans, Kree, etc...) since that seems to be the direction they're going in for Skye.
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Jan 10, 2014 15:51
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If Coulson's heart is close to someone else's heart he can make them his mind slave. Beware his hugs.
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Jan 10, 2014 15:53
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Does anyone really imagine that there was initially any bigger reason for Coulson being resurrected and cast in this series than the fact that he was a fan-favorite character from the Marvel films and they thought that would be a big fun drawing point for fans of the films? Like, I'm sure they've brainstormed ideas about what they'll end up revealing down the line...far, far down the line...but there's nothing from the episodes shown so far that suggests his whole deal isn't simply a straightforward case of "Okay we want this character in the show and we'll just hammer out the actual plot about it as we go along." Which isn't terrible, and it's not as if it's totally unheard-of for showrunners to run their show that way, and maybe the thing they end up revealing about the resurrection...far, far down the line...will actually be kinda cool. But the fact is that they could end up revealing virtually anything at all and still say they "planned it all along" because so far everything about his resurrection has been so vague that it could end up accommodating virtually any revelation whatsoever, up to and including flat-out retconning anything they've already shown about it! Well, maybe I'm just too cynical. Maybe I'm just too used to hugely-hyped secret comic book revelations that literally...and I mean actually, literally...end up being nothing more than "The big secret all this time was that there was no actual secret." Thank you, Brand New Day. Thank you, anything at all Bendis ever writes. Okay okay I promise to try to shut up about this. Starting now or possibly later. BrianWilly fucked around with this message at 16:21 on Jan 10, 2014 |
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Jan 10, 2014 16:13
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BrianWilly posted:Well, maybe I'm just too cynical. Maybe I'm just too used to hugely-hyped secret comic book revelations that literally...and I mean actually, literally...end up being nothing more than "The big secret all this time was that there was no actual secret." Thank you, Brand New Day. Thank you, anything at all Bendis ever writes. There's no such thing as 'too cynical.' My issue is that the show keeps hyping the secret of Coulsen's death and resurrection without ever giving us a reason to care. It could be nothing, as you said, or he could be a clone, a skrull or whatever, and it wouldn't matter because it doesn't connect to anything else on the show. When BSG hyped "the plan," what the plan was mattered because the robots were actively chasing and trying to kill the humans. The nature of the island on Lost mattered because it was preventing the castaways from escaping. Coulsen being a robot doesn't matter because the only person that revelation affects is Coulsen. Its trivia, and a stupid piece of trivia at that.
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Jan 10, 2014 16:32
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Shield is perhaps the most powerful organization in the world, so if they have the ability and authority to say who lives or dies, and the way they implement that authority, matters.
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Jan 10, 2014 16:44
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Irish Joe posted:There's no such thing as 'too cynical.' My issue is that the show keeps hyping the secret of Coulsen's death and resurrection without ever giving us a reason to care. It could be nothing, as you said, or he could be a clone, a skrull or whatever, and it wouldn't matter because it doesn't connect to anything else on the show. When BSG hyped "the plan," what the plan was mattered because the robots were actively chasing and trying to kill the humans. The nature of the island on Lost mattered because it was preventing the castaways from escaping. Coulsen being a robot doesn't matter because the only person that revelation affects is Coulsen. Its trivia, and a stupid piece of trivia at that. Well, they did try to connect it to the main arc by having Centipede kidnap him specifically because of the resurrection. It looks like whatever the calculation/language stuff was in 'Eye Spy' is connected to Coulson coming back from the dead, so there's that, as well. The diagrams actually remind me of Feynman diagrams (at least the types of diagrams you use in condensed matter physics) more than anything else that people have guessed at. I think they're actually attempting to make Coulson's death and resurrection central to the plot, such as it is. It's just that the plot has been poorly conceived and the episodic nature of the show (to date, anyway) doesn't lend itself well to an elaborate, season-long arc. The problem I've had is that the various episodes have been so disconnected that even the plot tie-ins in those episodes feel forced, rather than organic. It shouldn't take a show-runner to point out that they've had a couple of episodes sort of tied in together. The tie ins are clumsy, as well, especially when you compare it to something like Fringe, which I thought did an excellent job of weaving things together without constantly rubbing your face in it, particularly in the first three seasons.
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Jan 10, 2014 16:48
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Kaizer88 posted:I'm betting that's halfway what it was. The colourful space background reminiscent of Asgard, Fury quoted as "moving Heaven and Earth to bring him back". Sounds like somebody asgardian was involved. One would think it'd be tough to have Asgard involved and Thor not finding out about it, and I thought a lot of this was still keeping secrets from the Avengers. Asgard probably also wouldn't be at quite the level of shameful secret all this is sounding like because "Heimdal beamed in Eir and healed you" doesn't sound like something they'd really need to cover up.
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Jan 10, 2014 20:32
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There's no bridge between Asgard and Earth at the time of Coulson's death. The Bifrost is still broken, and Odin doesn't magically teleport just anyone.
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Jan 10, 2014 20:43
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greatn posted:Shield is perhaps the most powerful organization in the world, so if they have the ability and authority to say who lives or dies, and the way they implement that authority, matters. How does it matter in the context of the TV show? The problem Irish Joe is pointing out is that it doesn't matter to any of the characters besides Coulson. SHIELD having a respawn machine affects FitzSimmons how? Skye how? I mean you could argue that everyone has experienced either a death in their lives or almost died themselves so SHIELD only using a resurrecting procedure on certain people kind of sucks? But that's pretty weak when we still don't even know exactly what SHIELD did. The problem is that they are dragging out this mystery, and the journey that the audience and characters are on in discovering the answers doesn't feel like it has any actual weight to it. Sure, there are ways it could be a big important plot thing, but that is speculation on our part. For now, this is purely Coulson's personal issue, which would be fine if this show were about Coulson (I wish it was.)
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Jan 10, 2014 20:44
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If the tech that they used to resurrect Coulson was a shady HYDRA invention with unknown (or known-and-horrible) side-effects, that might be enough to make them want to hide it. Continuing questionable HYDRA research and lying about it was a big plot point in Avengers, so we know SHIELD would do it. Or since we know the Marvel movie universe's overarching plot is tied in to the Infinity gems, perhaps one of them is involved in some way, and they absolutely can not reveal that they have it for various reasons.
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Jan 10, 2014 21:01
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Here's a dumb theory that will never come to pass: Coulson is the main weapon against the Clairvoyant. The Clairvoyant will struggle to find the purpose behind Coulson's resurrection, and that struggle will be the Clairvoyant's downfall. For there was no purpose behind it. Alternatively, this is a comic book TV show and characters are resurrected by silly means and reasoning all the time.
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Jan 10, 2014 21:05
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Robot Hobo posted:If the tech that they used to resurrect Coulson was a shady HYDRA invention with unknown (or known-and-horrible) side-effects, that might be enough to make them want to hide it. Continuing questionable HYDRA research and lying about it was a big plot point in Avengers, so we know SHIELD would do it. So would it be the Soul gem in this case? Or, could it be the Reality gem? The interesting thing about that is that it was in the hands of the Inhumans for a while. I can see them hinting at that for a while and then using Captain America 2 to confirm it (and then confirming it later on the show itself.)
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Jan 10, 2014 22:58
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PriorMarcus posted:
This is awesome. I wonder of it's a cheap Vancouver VFX company reusing its assets, or if that's a real building in BC with fake field in the AoS shot. Then by coincidence it's also modeled for future Vancouver in ME3 but has added extra future crap.
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Jan 12, 2014 17:27
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GOT VIRUS FROM MP3 posted:that's a real building in BC with fake field in the AoS shot. Then by coincidence it's also modeled for future Vancouver in ME3 but has added extra future crap. This. We're all familiar with BioWare's design philosophy. There's no way they came up with that on their own. 
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Jan 12, 2014 17:51
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Irish Joe posted:This. We're all familiar with BioWare's design philosophy. There's no way they came up with that on their own. Kinda like they took the entire plotline for Mass Effect from Star Control 3
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Jan 12, 2014 20:59
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Irish Joe posted:This. We're all familiar with BioWare's design philosophy. There's no way they came up with that on their own. Well remember they had a VFX company make those live action trailers for ME3 so I could see Bioware stealing the asset from them, never actually using it in the game, then the VFX company is in a pinch so they edit a scifi building that's in their library already. Anyways it's a great catch I love seeing things like that. The Tali image above was funny too.
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Jan 12, 2014 21:48
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