|
Cyclomatic posted:So it looks like clam jacks are the next model to get an iterative adjustment to balance. Slams and tramples no longer cause them to lose armored shell. 
|
#
?
Jan 11, 2014 04:26
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 10, 2024 00:27 |
|
|
Took my new Rahn list out with reasonable results last night. I was playing: Adeptis Rahn - WJ: +6 - Sylys Wyshnalyrr, The Seeker - Phoenix - PC: 10 - Chimera - PC: 6 House Shyeel Artificer - PC: 3 House Shyeel Magister - PC: 2 Mage Hunter Assassin - PC: 2 House Shyeel Battle Mages - Leader & 5 Grunts: 5 Dawnguard Sentinels - Leader & 9 Grunts: 9 - Sentinel Officer & Standard - PC: 2 First up was againt someoen whos a good player and was playing his new Ashlynn list. We played CLose Qaurters from SR2013. Cant remember the exact composition, but A&H, Mule, Nomad ( I think), ATGM +UA, MacNaile, Taryn di la Rovissi, Nys Hunters and Reinholdt were def in it. Game was very bloody, started with me dashing a Chimera forward where he had moved the ATGMs and Taryn up on my flank hiding behind a wall. I managed to get off some arced Chain Blasts, pretty much wiping out the ATGMs and UA which was a great start. Polarity shield on my Sentinels really seemed to gently caress with his plans, and when he feated, by brining Ashlynn pretty much into the centre of the board, it nullified pretty much everything in my force. I realised I could still arc spells into her however as Rahn was outside her contorl zone, which got her Force Hammered staright back into Holt, killing him and knocking Ashlynn down to 4 health. The game continued in a bloody way, with my sentinels and MHA wrecking his Nomad, and my feat wiping out his Nys, MacNaile and Reinholdt pretty effectively. At this point I was controlling his flag and was in a position to dominate my own, and his force (Mule, Ashlyn, Aiyanna were all that were left pretty much- Id lost my MHA, half my Battle Mages, Artificer and half my Sentinels) were in a small pocket on the corner of the kill box out of contention of zones, and my opponent resigned. Really good first game, pleased with how it turned out. 2nd game was very different. Another reasonably experienced player also brought a new Mortenebra Tier list (Infernal Machines Lvl 4), and man what a pain in the arse that was. 6 Jacks, 4 heavies, 2 lights, 2 Warwitches. My Phoenix took out a Helljack and I managed to hurt most f the heavies and kill the warwitches, but I panicked following his feat turn and thought my only chance to win the game was to take a gamble on a assassination, which in hindsight was a bad idea. I did manage to put some hurt on Mortenebra but it wasnt close to enough. This left my decimated force unable to protect Rahn from a Slayer that had enough systems up to wreck Rahn. Mort was left with 4 or 5 health at the end, so maybe with some better dice, my couple of chances to assassinate throughout the game might have worked out better. Good games and I really like Rahn. Im not so sure about the Artificer solo though. 3 points seems a lot, and while his Force Barrier action was handy when I sat him in the middle of the sentinel unit at some point, he just doesnt seem that good. Wondering if its worth replacing him with a Arcanist and another Magister, or MHA. Any thoughts? Serotonin fucked around with this message at 12:16 on Jan 11, 2014 |
|
#
?
Jan 11, 2014 11:06
|
|
|
Had an awesome game the other night, my cryx vs his Menoth, witch coven vs Kreoss. My mcthralls smashed into his Errants which just never died, I pulled a Vanquisher in with malice who possessed and shot at kreoss setting him on fire. The withershadow charged in to wreck it but despite back struck bonus one of them missed. On his turn he took some fire damage and feated knocking almost my whole army over, which meant his Repentor could spray rid of almost all my mechanithralls without needing to roll any dice! Horrors! He smashed up my other stuff with his jacks. On my go I realise he's just in a much better place than me, and I have to pull of a bullshit cryx victory, so I inch a deathripper out of woods near kreoss and arc three boosted stygian abyss shots him, leaving him on one. He burns to death on his go. I love that hail Mary plays are often the right choice, it makes games exciting right up to the very very end! !Klams fucked around with this message at 12:11 on Jan 11, 2014 |
|
#
?
Jan 11, 2014 12:08
|
|
|
Cyclomatic posted:So it looks like clam jacks are the next model to get an iterative adjustment to balance. Slams and tramples no longer cause them to lose armored shell. Wait, what? That does sound pretty awesome. Did they release a new errata already? That changes so much. I used to just run them, bouncing stuff around with bulldoze, but actually getting to slam or trample without going to ARM crap seems like such a good deal. Sort of makes me want to run two Clamjacks with Butcher2, because gently caress ever having to spend focus on Warjacks.
|
|
#
?
Jan 11, 2014 16:23
|
|
|
Zwiebel posted:Wait, what? That does sound pretty awesome. Did they release a new errata already? Infernal ruling that takes effect immediately and will be in next errata. I'm loving pumped. Might attach one to Malekov.
|
|
#
?
Jan 11, 2014 17:23
|
|
|
Here we go with more super high arm bricks... Bricks are boring as poo poo and I think PP trying to support the style more is a really bad thing.
|
|
#
?
Jan 11, 2014 17:38
|
|
|
Panzeh posted:Here we go with more super high arm bricks... Harkevich with Black Ivan and five Demolishers... chills! I agree though, I think armor spam is super boring (and a lot more boring than DEF spam since there's no way around it).
|
|
#
?
Jan 11, 2014 18:21
|
|
|
Panzeh posted:Here we go with more super high arm bricks... I already had trouble with Khador, now those jacks can trample through my infantry swarm with impunity.
|
|
#
?
Jan 11, 2014 18:21
|
|
|
They are expensive, slow, they don't trample very far, their MAT isn't great, and they will still sit there and slowly die to a heavy. I don't think that taking clam jack spam is suddenly going to be a thing. It does make them a little bit better, and a little bit more interesting.
|
|
#
?
Jan 11, 2014 19:05
|
|
|
Serotonin posted:Took my new Rahn list out with reasonable results last night. K, Rhan is my main guy and I run him as pure infantry-spam. While Ret solos are fantastic, I want as many force bolts on the feat turn as possible. I also don't think you should ever run Ret jacks without an Arcanist, ever. Our jacks are balances to have concentrated power, without it they are pillow-fisted. With that in mind, the first change I would make is -1 Artificer and -1 MHA for +1 HSBM Unit After that I would look at -1 Chimera for +1 Arcanist and +1 Stormfall Archer unit Beyond that we are talking about -1 Sentinels Unit + UA -1 Magister for +1 Halberdiers Unit + UA + Soulless + Eiryss 2 For the least disturbance you could start with -1 Artificer for +1 Arcanist and +1 Magister, like you suggested. The only reason I'm not a big fan of that is because you end up owning two magisters and I don't end up running 2 anymore.
|
|
#
?
Jan 11, 2014 21:15
|
|
|
GEMorris posted:K, Rhan is my main guy and I run him as pure infantry-spam. While Ret solos are fantastic, I want as many force bolts on the feat turn as possible. While I also prefer to have a few HSBM around, I'm not sure how helpful this advice is in general. You're not so much tweaking his list as replacing everything that's not Rahn and the Phoenix with something different, which makes it into an entirely different list/play style. There's a large number of Rahn plays who think building for the feat turn is a trap (which I'm agreeing with more and more). I'm also an enormous fan of keeping the two arc nodes for the best Force Hammer angles. My advice would be to drop the Artificer. With Rahn, he's mostly redundant as his best two uses are blast immunity and loving up formations, both of which Rahn is already really good at doing himself. Throw in another MHA (great with back-strikes from TK) and an Arcanist.
|
|
#
?
Jan 11, 2014 21:29
|
|
|
Cheers for your thoughts. Im going to drop the Artificer for the Arcanist and Magister for sure. Shame becuase Ive done a decent paint job on him too! Im keen on keeping the 2 Jacks at this time, and Im quite a fan of the Sentinels so far, so would like to keep them in. If I expand to 50 (which i soon will) I will add Stormfall archers and maybe Halberdiers and UA and Thane. I might even swap out the Chimera for another Phoenix if I can.
|
|
#
?
Jan 11, 2014 21:32
|
|
|
Serotonin posted:Cheers for your thoughts. Im going to drop the Artificer for the Arcanist and Magister for sure. Shame becuase Ive done a decent paint job on him too! For the record, the main purpose of the Artificer is to protect the Stormfall Archers from carpet-bombing and sniping; but you generally need to run two units of Archers to make the cost worth it (and running two units of Archers is often worth it). If you ever spurge on a Hyperion, you might want to check out Rahn's Fires From On High theme list; it's pretty sweet.
|
|
#
?
Jan 11, 2014 21:39
|
|
|
Paper Kaiju posted:For the record, the main purpose of the Artificer is to protect the Stormfall Archers from carpet-bombing and sniping; but you generally need to run two units of Archers to make the cost worth it (and running two units of Archers is often worth it). If you ever spurge on a Hyperion, you might want to check out Rahn's Fires From On High theme list; it's pretty sweet. I really quite fancy a Hyperion, especially if Issyria's spoilers are true.
|
|
#
?
Jan 11, 2014 22:55
|
|
|
CaptCommy posted:While I also prefer to have a few HSBM around, I'm not sure how helpful this advice is in general. You're not so much tweaking his list as replacing everything that's not Rahn and the Phoenix with something different, which makes it into an entirely different list/play style. There's a large number of Rahn plays who think building for the feat turn is a trap (which I'm agreeing with more and more). I'm also an enormous fan of keeping the two arc nodes for the best Force Hammer angles. That's basically why I did it in stages. Starting with things I'd most advise doing, and ending with basically the list I run. People tend to think that HSBMs are "only for the feat turn". They aren't, they are a good unit regardless. Having two units of HSBMs does not make a Rhan list some kind of feat-turn-one-trick-pony or anything remotely like that. That being said, Rhan has an insanely good feat, doubly so if you build properly for it. Wiping gobs of points off of the table before your opponent even gets to do anything is pretty effective in my experience. I understand the argument for two nodes, but I would always recommend 2x Phoenix over running a Chimera as the second jack. I do run 2x Phoenix at 50points. The Chimera is exceptionally fragile even with the tricks it has. More than anything his list is missing arcanists, if you look at the posts where people have worked out the mathematical effects of Concentrated Power, you'll see that Ret jacks are designed with the assumption that Arcanists will be in the list, without them Ret jacks are weak. Eiryss2 is just good, there's no real reason to not be running her. Adding her is not "Replacing everything that's not Rhan," it's adding a versatile toolbox (which I could argue that switching from Sentinels to Halberdiers does as well) I'll try to better explain my selections next time. I'm operating under the assumption that players know they need Tarpits, Armor Cracking, Mobility, and Volume of Attacks. This may be assuming too much. GEMorris fucked around with this message at 23:22 on Jan 11, 2014 |
|
#
?
Jan 11, 2014 23:18
|
|
|
Why the Halbs over Sentinels? The Sentinels seemed really good to me in the 2 games Ive played so far with them. Stick Polarity shield on them, and the Artificers Force Barrier action and they are hard to hurt (other than bloody sprays), and they hit like a truck, 3 of them took down a Nomad no problem yesterday. Plus they are nice models. 
|
|
#
?
Jan 11, 2014 23:24
|
|
|
Serotonin posted:Why the Halbs over Sentinels? The Sentinels seemed really good to me in the 2 games Ive played so far with them. Stick Polarity shield on them, and the Artificers Force Barrier action and they are hard to hurt (other than bloody sprays), and they hit like a truck, 3 of them took down a Nomad no problem yesterday. Plus they are nice models. For background: I have played both of the units in question a lot. I started with Sentinels, and eventually moved to Halberdiers (this is actually pretty common based on posts I've read and conversations I've had). Retribution Tarpits: Tarpit: A unit that can bog down your opponent, and preferably weather incoming attacks or at least eat those attacks so higher-value targets don't. Options: Houseguard Halberdiers, Dawnguard Sentinels, Mage Hunter Infiltrators Armor Cracking: A unit or model that can output high-pow attacks which can deal with ARM20+ models. Houseguard Halberdiers: Houseguard Halberdiers really must be looked at with the UA. In that package you get the following: Mat 6 Reach Pow 10 with Combined Melee Attack, Powerful Charge (+2 Damage on Charge), Shield Wall (making them ARM 18), and a UA mini-feat (Team Effort) which gives them +2 to attack and damage rolls against any target which is also engaged by a member of this unit. That by the way, makes them dice -2 compared to Sentinels on the Charge when they mini feat. So while they aren't weaponmasters, they can get a near-weaponmaster charge off. On the defensive side they Have Set Defense which gives opposing models -2 on charge or power attack rolls. On the usability front they have Ranked attacks which means friendly models can shoot and draw LOS through them. On the mobility front they are speed 6, with the UA granting Reform, which allows them to move 3" after their activation is finished. This means they can move 9" without any additional support and still be in shield wall (Def 13 (an effective 15 vs charges) and Arm 18). Your opponent will waste many attacks to get through these guys, or they will get their charge off and make short work of their target. The soon to be released Houseguard Thane solo can also give these guys an additional 2" of movement for a turn. Summary: Halberdiers are a good/great tarpit and for one turn they provide good armor cracking. CMA means they can chose between armor cracking and volume of attacks, adding to their versatility. Dawnguard Sentinels: Hey, grunts with Mat 7 and Reach Pow 12 weaponmaster are no joke. Unfortunately they have Defensive line as their survival option. The difference between Def 12 Arm 17 and Def 13 Arm 18 in this game is immense. The UA grants Vengeance which gives the unit the possibility of getting extra mobility and making extra attacks, but it puts the decision in your opponents hands, as they have to chose to kill a sentinel or not. What this means is when your opponent goes after Sentinels, they are either a. Targeting the UA if you didn't protect him, or b. Killing all of the sentinels at once. Once a player has faced Sentinels a few times, the player adapts and the overall effectiveness of Sentinels is generally reduced. On the usability side Sentinels will block LOS for your ranged troops, and Speed5 can have trouble keeping up with an army that is almost entirely speed 6. Summary: Sentinels are a medicore tarpit and provide great armor cracking, providing you can protect them so they make it to their target. Mage Hunter Infiltrators: I don't have enough experience with these guys to make an accurate assessment of how good of a tarpit they are. They are high speed, high defense, and stealth, which is Kayazy-esque and we know that CAN work. They don't block LOS to your back-line troops from enemy ranged attacks which can be bad (that being said their goal is most likely to run to engage said ranged units). To get any additional unit/attachment buffs with them, you have to take their only UA which is Eiryss3. The problem there is she is a character and therefore subject to character restrictions, you might want to use her in a different list. Summary: I don't have enough experience with this unit. GEMorris fucked around with this message at 00:14 on Jan 12, 2014 |
|
#
?
Jan 11, 2014 23:48
|
|
|
The main problem with that assessment is that it evaluates Sentinels as a tarpit unit, with they are decidedly not. You use them as either an alpha-strike unit (with the appropriate tech to extend their threat range and/or protect them from gunfire/spells), or as a counter-strike unit behind your actual tarpit. And SPD 5 isn't really an issue in either case (either your army is moving in pace with them, or they're just fast enough to follow up your frontline unit (okay, not AD Infiltrators). Vengeance is my favorite ability in the game, because of how it forces the opponent into an all-or-nothing strategy, and smart positioning will keep you from losing too many about 4 times out of 5. I play Sentinels and Halbrediers on roughly an equal basis, but most of time I run Halbrediers, it's because I'm using a Rahn or Ossyan theme list. Ultimately, the decision of one verses the other depends mostly on what you actually want out of them (also, points).
|
|
#
?
Jan 12, 2014 00:19
|
|
|
Really helpful discussion. I will probably end up buying Halbs too. You can never have to many minis right?
|
|
#
?
Jan 12, 2014 01:07
|
|
|
Paper Kaiju posted:The main problem with that assessment is that it evaluates Sentinels as a tarpit unit, with they are decidedly not. You use them as either an alpha-strike unit (with the appropriate tech to extend their threat range and/or protect them from gunfire/spells), or as a counter-strike unit behind your actual tarpit. And SPD 5 isn't really an issue in either case (either your army is moving in pace with them, or they're just fast enough to follow up your frontline unit (okay, not AD Infiltrators). Vengeance is my favorite ability in the game, because of how it forces the opponent into an all-or-nothing strategy, and smart positioning will keep you from losing too many about 4 times out of 5. Yeah, I agree with all of that, Sentinels aren't a very good tarpit. That being said, lets ask the question: "Does Rhan need a tarpit"? I think the answer is yes, but if you are very good at getting 18" of threat out of HSBMs on the feat turn then you can likely get the alpha, in which case your HSBMs go first and the Sentinels follow up behind. I can see that as a legit strategy, but its not my preferred playstyle. If you want to use Polarity Shield as a way of reducing your opponents mobility, then you generally want to put it on a large unit that can block a lot of area imo. This is problematic when using the HSBMs as your frontline unit. That being said, I'd be willing to give it a shot.
|
|
#
?
Jan 12, 2014 01:10
|
|
|
GEMorris posted:Yeah, I agree with all of that, Sentinels aren't a very good tarpit. That being said, lets ask the question: "Does Rhan need a tarpit"? I think the answer is yes, but if you are very good at getting 18" of threat out of HSBMs on the feat turn then you can likely get the alpha, in which case your HSBMs go first and the Sentinels follow up behind. I can see that as a legit strategy, but its not my preferred playstyle. If you want to use Polarity Shield as a way of reducing your opponents mobility, then you generally want to put it on a large unit that can block a lot of area imo. This is problematic when using the HSBMs as your frontline unit. That being said, I'd be willing to give it a shot. When I first started with Ret, I did that exact thing a lot with Rahn's old theme list. It worked decently, was definitely useful with their AD; but I haven't run that since his new theme list, which is as close to objectively better than his original as this game gets. I should note that, when I do run Halbrediers with Rahn, I usually put Polarity Shield on the Phoenix (or Hyperion, if I'm running it). I find that, assuming my opponent doesn't have any attack buffs, I'd rather let my opponent charge the Halbrediers and take advantage of their Set Defense. But then my playstyle leans toward drawing my opponent in and counter-punching. Paper Kaiju fucked around with this message at 01:28 on Jan 12, 2014 |
|
#
?
Jan 12, 2014 01:21
|
|
|
Paper Kaiju posted:Halb stuff Unrelated to this discussion, what night/where are you playing these days?
|
|
#
?
Jan 12, 2014 05:53
|
|
|
GEMorris posted:Unrelated to this discussion, what night/where are you playing these days? I've been on hiatus for the past several months; been focusing more on board gaming. Before my hiatus I was playing a lot of Blindwater, and trying out Convergence. I'm considering starting up again sometime this month, going back to playing Retribution; off all the factions I've played they're the most fun for me (although Blindwater is a close second).
|
|
#
?
Jan 12, 2014 07:03
|
|
|
Cyclomatic posted:They are expensive, slow, they don't trample very far, their MAT isn't great, and they will still sit there and slowly die to a heavy. Yeah, if Clam Jacks are the list 2 backing up a Butcher 3 list 1, I'll pray for the list 2 everytime.
|
|
#
?
Jan 12, 2014 07:08
|
|
|
Paper Kaiju posted:I've been on hiatus for the past several months; been focusing more on board gaming. Before my hiatus I was playing a lot of Blindwater, and trying out Convergence. I'm considering starting up again sometime this month, going back to playing Retribution; off all the factions I've played they're the most fun for me (although Blindwater is a close second). I miss playing games with you. Also winter in Pittsburgh makes spring in Durham look pretty loving great.
|
|
#
?
Jan 12, 2014 15:54
|
|
|
Paper Kaiju posted:When I first started with Ret, I did that exact thing a lot with Rahn's old theme list. It worked decently, was definitely useful with their AD; but I haven't run that since his new theme list, which is as close to objectively better than his original as this game gets. I think when I up this list to 50, I will definitely try Halbardiers. Our group is new to Warmachine so we are only playing at 35points presently, but we all want to move to 50. I think theres room for Halbs and Sentinels in the list.
|
|
#
?
Jan 12, 2014 16:28
|
|
|
Sulecrist posted:I miss playing games with you. Also winter in Pittsburgh makes spring in Durham look pretty loving great. Yeah, Pittsburgh's great. Didn't that mid 30's day last week feel like Spring had emerged.  ~ So, I've just been informed that my first tournament ever is next week AND it's Deathclock, a format with which I have no experience. Are there any general tips I should know? Two 35pt lists. I'm playing Trolls because I'm probably most familiar with Runes of War. I was thinking of pairing it with Borka's Family Reunion.
|
|
#
?
Jan 12, 2014 16:33
|
|
|
They're a good combination if your have the points for them, especially with the Vyros1's NQ theme list, and with Vyros2 normally. And the great thing about Rahn is that you can run anything with him as long as you have A) a couple of arc nodes, a few battle mages, and Sylys; and B) a good plan as to what the rest of your army is going to do.Sulecrist posted:I miss playing games with you. Also winter in Pittsburgh makes spring in Durham look pretty loving great. Stop making me feel emotions! 
Paper Kaiju fucked around with this message at 16:44 on Jan 12, 2014 |
|
#
?
Jan 12, 2014 16:39
|
|
|
oh crap what did I do.. I ordered some crocs... maelok gatorman posse boneswarm swamp horror I already have swamp gobbers and the gatorman witch doctor... Is this playable?
|
|
#
?
Jan 12, 2014 17:39
|
|
|
Syphilis Fish posted:oh crap what did I do.. I ordered some crocs... Yes. Buy a Bull Snapper immediately though. And then another Gatorman posse when you can. Edit: Bull Snapper, Swamp Horror, Witch Doctor, Max Gators, Min Gators, Swamp Gobbers is a rock hard 25-point list even though it's only 24 points. Bull Snapper, Swamp Horror, Max Posse, Swamp Gobbers will be a great 15-point list and an excellent intro to the game. Trading the Gobbers and Bull Snapper for Boneswarm leaves a crucial tool at home but is still fine to learn with. Sulecrist fucked around with this message at 18:12 on Jan 12, 2014 |
|
#
?
Jan 12, 2014 18:08
|
|
|
Went to take a break from painting wolves, decided to start basing. Just doing the generic corkboard and snow, but I don't know what color to do. Do you guys think grey would be too much with the grey fur and lining on the capes? Crappy cell phone sample photo of the Skinwalkers I'm working on
|
|
#
?
Jan 12, 2014 18:54
|
|
|
I'm sure I've said this before but Swamp horrors have an absolutely fantastic model.
|
|
#
?
Jan 12, 2014 20:57
|
|
|
Ack double posting. Does anybody know what the points cost for Flamebringers is? Forward Kommander hasn't added them yet and I would like to know!
|
|
#
?
Jan 12, 2014 21:30
|
|
|
6/10
|
|
#
?
Jan 12, 2014 21:32
|
|
|
Would not bang
|
|
#
?
Jan 12, 2014 21:56
|
|
|
Just finished my Prime Axiom   I made a new stand because I hate the rock that the original model is beached on. Not 100% happy with it but better than nothing. If anyone has any ideas for how to make him look more floaty please let me know
|
|
#
?
Jan 12, 2014 22:49
|
|
|
Mt. ORourke posted:Just finished my Prime Axiom Looking good! Also, I don't actually have an Axiom of my own, but would it look better (and have adequate support) on the tips of its legs? As in, actual leg to ground contact?
|
|
#
?
Jan 12, 2014 23:14
|
|
|
Finally got back into the game, painting a unit of Doom Reavers, and had a shits'n'giggles game with my mate where we used a lot of our new stuff. He played pTerminus, 2 defilers, 2 pistol wraiths and Tartarus, against a motley crew of Old Witch, half Shocktroopers, a Berserker and Nyss Hunters. Holy poo poo Terminus is an unpleasant foe, is all I have to say to that!
|
|
#
?
Jan 12, 2014 23:16
|
|
|
Mt. ORourke posted:Just finished my Prime Axiom That looks absolutely fantastic.
|
|
#
?
Jan 13, 2014 00:48
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 10, 2024 00:27 |
|
|
Mt. ORourke posted:Just finished my Prime Axiom Should've put some LEDs on his butt, light up the tube like he's an alien lifting cows into the space ship for probing. But seriously, looks clean as hell. I like it. Sab669 fucked around with this message at 01:28 on Jan 13, 2014 |
|
#
?
Jan 13, 2014 01:26
|
|