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Tias posted:No, I'm sure living in full communism with increased economic growth, living standards and almost perfect political liberty didn't seem world-changing to those fortunate enough to be a part of it, broseph Uh, this is not at all an accurate description of anarchism in Spain during the civil war. The anarchists joined the bourgeois government, both nationally and in Catalonia, and during the Barcelona May Days cut a deal with the Stalinists, selling out the POUM. After the POUM was liquidated, the Stalinist then turned on their erstwhile allies. Somehow, anarchist literature and songs about the war and the Stalinist betrayal usually fail to mention this Faustian bargain. Spain is a wonderful example of a major failing of anarchism - anarchists did not distinguish between a bourgeois state and a proletarian state, and were unwilling to take the power themselves. Consequently, as the existing state was a bourgeois one and they had need of organization to fight against Franco, they joined with it rather than replacing it with a worker's government. This was not in an abstract sense, either - the bourgeois ministers actually offered to resign in Catalonia and the CNT-FAI refused and insisted that they remain in power. The anarchists ensured the survival of the capitalist government which would later turn on them and endorsed the anti-POUM pogrom which would also be turned against them. Rogue0071 fucked around with this message at 20:33 on Jan 15, 2014 |
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Jan 15, 2014 17:26
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Tias is basicalyl enamored with the narrative of this one book he read called Black Flame which retcons all labor movements ever as being 'anarchist', no matter how 'anarchist' they actually were.
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Jan 15, 2014 17:29
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Tias posted:Anarchists have been pivotal to the workers movement in nearly every country, and directly responsible for the increases in living wages, rent decreases and, oh hey, also a driving force in major socialist revolutions such as the Russian one! You really don't know what you're talking about. Citation needed.
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Jan 15, 2014 20:28
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I just want a big dumb state to keep the trains running on time and absolving me of the need to "choose" my mailman and identical gas and electricity company. Anarchism fills the void of authority with a need for constant political engagement and struggle, but who really wants to be politically engaged all the time?
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Jan 16, 2014 04:29
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All anarchists were executed for being annoying by the Bolsheviks. I don't think they were really around to 'win' anything in Russia.
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Jan 16, 2014 05:01
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Hollande has decided that brutal austerity is the way to go to, get this, improve his opinion on the polls. Never trust a Social Democrat, never trust a center leftist. http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...cy-9042432.html \/\/\/\/\/\/ you're a dumb anarchist gently caress who thinks the PS is composed of actual Socialists. Go back to fantasizing about firebombing your local state authority and come back when you're 18 years old. Mans fucked around with this message at 11:17 on Jan 16, 2014 |
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Jan 16, 2014 08:56
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But don't trust socialists either! No one can be trusted, the revolution needed will be made by.. <-- forums poster Mans.Raskolnikov38 posted:Citation needed. Here's your huckleberry: http://anarchism.pageabode.com/afaq/append4.html Also, I can really recommend the collected letters of Maurice Brinton, for a good and thorough analysis of how Lenin militarized the Russian trade unions and crushed actual communist currents in the country. Nonsense posted:All anarchists were executed for being annoying by the Bolsheviks. I don't think they were really around to 'win' anything in Russia. Amazing username/post combo, sir!
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Jan 16, 2014 09:28
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Mans posted:Hollande has decided that brutal austerity is the way to go to, get this, improve his opinion on the polls. Didn't he also argue unironically for actual military intervention in Syria? He's not going to last long. Job Truniht fucked around with this message at 10:25 on Jan 16, 2014 |
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Jan 16, 2014 10:21
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Job Truniht posted:Didn't he also argue unironically for actual military intervention in Syria? He's not going to last long. There were plenty of people arguing for intervention in Syria in these forums, and I don't think that would disqualify them from having Correct Opinions (TM). If only that was all of Flamby's problems  So, over here in the west corner of Yurop not much has happened as of late. Spain keeps having its royal scandals slow burning (Princess Cristina and her husband Iñaki Urdangarín are involved in a corruption scandal) and they recently made their abortion laws *more* restrictive. Over here in Portugal, though, the ruling coalition is preparing an absolutely disgusting move. Last year we discussed the issue of homosexual co-adoption: if two men or two women are married and one of them has children and dies, it would be legally possible for the other one to continue raising the child. Even if you're against gay adoption because reasons, this is just legal regularization of an already existing situation. Not many people were against it at all, the parliament passed it with plenty of abstentions from the ruling coalition, too. However, the PSD youths decided this wasn't good enough, so they're going to try to force a referendum after the fact and - get this - PSD isn't allowing their MPs to abstain and will instead force them to vote in favor of the referendum. Why the gently caress do we elect people when we could just have five guys in parliament instead if this is how they are going to make things work?
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Jan 16, 2014 15:38
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Nonsense posted:All anarchists were executed for being annoying by the Bolsheviks. I don't think they were really around to 'win' anything in Russia. This is dumb and wrong. The anarchists were only betrayed after they were no longer necessary to secure the revolution, in 1918  Anyway, this slapfight between Anarchists and Communists is the dumbest derail we've had in a while.In fascist news, the BNP openly supports the Golden Dawn  I didn't realize they were that open about their fascism.Just what Greece didn’t need: BNP leader Nick Griffin seeks Golden Dawn alliance
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Jan 16, 2014 16:30
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Wasn't Britain the actual birthplace of fascism? It's been a while, but I remember reading a history of World War I and the struggles of the Second International and pacifists to prevent and end it. In it, the author talks about socialists' failure to bring the working poor to their side in the face of overwhelming nationalism. At some point during the war, a fascist movement developed Tea Party-style (funded and supported by the ruling classes to quash dissent and support the war effort). I don't know if this was the ideological birth of fascism, but iirc this was the first big fascist movement. If it's also the former, it says a lot about the ideology, I think, that it was developed just to co-op existing movements to reinforce the existing order Can anyone more knowledgeable C/D?
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Jan 16, 2014 17:54
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KoldPT posted:However, the PSD youths decided this wasn't good enough, so they're going to try to force a referendum after the fact and - get this - PSD isn't allowing their MPs to abstain and will instead force them to vote in favor of the referendum. Discipline of vote is an internal party politics that no one pays much attention too, unless the party in question is PCP. We paid attention to PSD as their internal party democracy got trampled, because some boys from PSD stand to make a quick buck out of the referendum.
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Jan 16, 2014 18:52
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visceril posted:Wasn't Britain the actual birthplace of fascism? No, that would be Imperial Rome.
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Jan 16, 2014 21:21
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Ian Winthorpe III posted:Crazy stuff. The blog actually reminds me a lot of stuff I've been seeing in Finland, particularly at Verkkomedia ("Alternative news", meaning conspiracy theories) website. You know, the combination of Infowars-style conspiracy theories about NWO, 9/11 and so on with populism, veiled antisemitism and open admiration of Putin, Assad and other "anti-imperialist" forces. (Verkkomedia also throws in heavy doses of euroskepticism, global warming denialism and rather hazily defined 'monetary reform'). It's not quite the same as what the traditional far-right is saying, at least in that they do not really concentrate on anti-immigration hysteria, but it's clearly something that's happening in more than one country.
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Jan 16, 2014 23:29
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ekuNNN posted:This is dumb and wrong. The anarchists were only betrayed after they were no longer necessary to secure the revolution, in 1918 Anarchists were at the heart of the socialist labor movement from USA to Russia at the turn of the twentieth century - ignoring their role against both industrial and street fascism is many kinds of wrong. It is a derail, though, let's end it here.
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Jan 17, 2014 15:28
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visceril posted:Wasn't Britain the actual birthplace of fascism? I'm pretty sure it depends on whether one considers the Ku Klux Klan a legitimate fascist movement; they're certainly the oldest modern fascistoid group like that. Otherwise, it probably originated in France with the Cercle Proudhon and the blueshirts.
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Jan 17, 2014 15:58
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Tias posted:Anarchists were at the heart of the socialist labor movement from USA to Russia at the turn of the twentieth century - ignoring their role against both industrial and street fascism is many kinds of wrong. Do i really need to pull out the "if anarchists were the bread and butter of the worker's struggle then how come the best they can come up with was firebombs, getting beaten by cops and failing to organize a single revolutionary state?" argument again? You have an amazing capacity to ingore the involvement of communists, socialists ,social democrats and trade unionists in the worker's struggle to the point where you sound like a 14 year old claiming that everything good was the result of anarchism and everything bad the result of not-anarchism. Get a slightly better grip of reality please. \/\/\/\/ If it was anyone other than him yes, but he's the man who literally defends anarchism was the only participant of worth on the workers struggle and when asked to explain what an anarchist society would entail effectively admited that it would have a state but with a name other than state. Mans fucked around with this message at 16:58 on Jan 17, 2014 |
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Jan 17, 2014 16:03
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Mans posted:Do i really need to pull out the "if anarchists were the bread and butter of the worker's struggle then how come the best they can come up with was firebombs, getting beaten by cops and failing to organize a single revolutionary state?" argument again? I guess only if you really want to sound like a 14-year old yourself? Also, PVV has initiated a discussion in the Dutch government about prevention of anti-semitism, while they're working together with Front National
ekuNNN fucked around with this message at 16:35 on Jan 17, 2014 |
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Jan 17, 2014 16:28
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Mans posted:Do i really need to pull out the "if anarchists were the bread and butter of the worker's struggle then how come the best they can come up with was firebombs, getting beaten by cops and failing to organize a single revolutionary state?" argument again? I have done no such thing, and I've never claimed that communists, socialists or trade unionists (who, incidentally, were dominated by anarchists from 1900-1930) didn't participate. The sum total of my argument was directed at you and the goon who said "historical anarchism doesn't matter", since anarchists dominated the labour movement that created the 8 hour day, international labor struggle day, spontaneous communist revolutions in Russia, Spain, Portugal and Ukraine, and attempts at the same in Germany and France, as well as a lot of places outside of Europe. You know so little about the history of labour and mass socialism that it hurts, and this flailing to convince us otherwise frankly demeans the both of us.
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Jan 18, 2014 12:32
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Tias posted:I have done no such thing, and I've never claimed that communists, socialists or trade unionists (who, incidentally, were dominated by anarchists from 1900-1930) didn't participate. The sum total of my argument was directed at you and the goon who said "historical anarchism doesn't matter", since anarchists dominated the labour movement that created the 8 hour day, international labor struggle day, spontaneous communist revolutions in Russia, Spain, Portugal and Ukraine, and attempts at the same in Germany and France, as well as a lot of places outside of Europe. Indeed. You see, Anarchism is kind of like God - it creates what it wills out of thin air and dominates every aspect of our lives.
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Jan 18, 2014 12:56
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Tias posted:trade unionists (who, incidentally, were dominated by anarchists from 1900-1930) Do you have a source for this claim
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Jan 18, 2014 13:00
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I have, read Black Flame vol 1: The Revolutionary Class Politics of Anarchism and Syndicalism. Labor unionism all over the world followed mass anarchism in practice if not in theory. It's even free as pdf! http://libcom.org/files/Lucien%20Van%20Der%20Walt%20and%20Michael%20Schmidt%20Black%20Flame%20vol%201.pdf
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Jan 18, 2014 13:07
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Tias posted:I have, read Black Flame vol 1: The Revolutionary Class Politics of Anarchism and Syndicalism. Labor unionism all over the world followed mass anarchism in practice if not in theory. It's even free as pdf! Could you maybe point to a specific citation in that
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Jan 18, 2014 13:26
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Well, the sum of documentation takes several entire chapters, so I'd really just recommend reading it. I'll be glad to dig out the relevant info when I get home to my copy, though.
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Jan 18, 2014 13:31
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Leftist bickering will never cease to astound me. Why attack your enemy in the next town over when your friend is standing right next to you? It's only literal fascists holding political power, now let me tell you all about how anarchists aren't the true drivers of change in the glorious workers struggle and furthermore *farts*
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Jan 18, 2014 13:32
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Warcranium posted:Leftist bickering will never cease to astound me. Why attack your enemy in the next town over when your friend is standing right next to you? It's only literal fascists holding political power, now let me tell you all about how anarchists aren't the true drivers of change in the glorious workers struggle and furthermore *farts* By Jove, you've got it. *Flicks switch, all the leftists of the world spontaneously coalesce into an unstoppable mass movement
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Jan 18, 2014 13:39
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Dear god, black flame. *rebrands all possibilist struggle as anarchism* Anarky ftw I like This book, it is very profound. page 212, anarchists are anti-statists and anti-militarists and anti-war!!! posted:The broad anarchist traditions fervent opposition to state wars and imperialism No Just War!! Fighting nazis is also bad, and if you do it, you are working only in the interests of the state & capitalism  check mate fucker daughter215 posted:Antimilitarism was widely adhered to elsewhere, always linked to a criticism 216 posted:The outbreak of the First World War in August 1914 nonetheless saw a number oh right. Well there seem to be good wars then after all?? i guess kropotkin was wrong, better fill up those gaps in theoretical rigor with some antisemitic anarchist Perspectives: 216 posted:In fact, the vast majority of anarchists and syndicalists rejected the war, and Hate-u-nin who believed basically what alex jones and david icke believe but replace reptilian with jew. You can find the quotes yourself. page 218, reforms laws and compromises posted:If the question of opposing war was fairly easily faced by the broad anarchist well gently caress me page 218 posted:Even a syndicalist union, based on This is mind-blowing stuff, to be sure. How does an anarchist do this?? quote:However, the question for syndicalism is not whether to negotiate or make That's really Intense, so a mass anarchist works in the system and compromises.... but how remains teh question... interesting. It seems like possibilist union organizing, the type of which Literally All Labor Movements Ever including the Bolsheviks directed and sought after, are the key to Mass Anarchism... drat who would have thought page 224, what is to be done posted:In summary, unlike principles and strategies, the development of appropriate Oh my loving god lmao quote:Ultimately, while a clear analysis of particular historical conjunctures, knowledge of historical experiences, and understanding of the implications of principles and strategies wow. so you look at the historical, andthe material 'conditions' so to speak... quote:can aid the development of tactics, it is practice that offers an effective adjudicator between different tactical approaches. Okay that's real cool. Good anarchgy right there, i'm liking this a lot. So just to convince myself i want to see some good examples of 'the broad anarchist tradition', which is 'replete with numerous examples of large-scale and effective antimilitarist campaigns'. Preferably examples plural that were actually meaningful in a historical sense?? maybe?? and that don't flow solely from the anarchist go-tos that ended up lasting less than a year and ended in wholesale slaughter of untrained and undisciplined peasan-- 213 posted:examples of large-scale and effective antimilitarist campaigns, particularly in the quote:The Spanish quote:Michele Angiolillo, the insurrectionist anarchist who assassinated Spanish president I thought this book didn't consider insurrectionist anarchists, anarchists? It seems that when they do something 'Good' they are cool, but otherwise they are not?? wowaweewa 239 posted:The issue that arises, however, is how best to spread the new faith, and it is okay so decentralized, no hierarchy no mods no masters (no gods either). good poo poo. but we've tried this and it never worked. never ever ever ever. quote:Yet even if organisational dualism is accepted, there is wide scope for disagreement well poo poo. so it's like Lenin when he says that careerists and charlatans are better shot than left to work in the party then? when he says that organization is needed but that we always have to be cautious of abuses of power? And when 'Mass Anarchism' promotes working inside the system, possibilism and reformism until the revolution, just like Lenin in Left Wing Communism: An Infantile Disorder in a chapter literally called Should we Participate In Bourgeous Parliaments????, that's like totally Anarchist, and has nothing to do with being sound organizational/revolutionary theory? Lmfao this book is bad and you are bad, anarchism is bad. ekuNNN posted:I guess only if you really want to sound like a 14-year old yourself? Wilders is actually a really big fan of Israël. I've always wondered whether that's due to having to appease his donors in the United States or if it's a marker of the Neo-Right / Identitarians. It doesn't seem to be the latter, because there's groups in Europe (like the Finnish one mentioned previously) that are anti-zionist. Does anyone have an analysis on this?
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Jan 18, 2014 14:42
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SSJ2 Goku Wilders posted:Hate-u-nin who believed basically what alex jones and david icke believe but replace reptilian with jew. You can find the quotes yourself. Not to defend Bakunin, but let's be fair: not Bakunin posted:The Jewish friend of the family Lassalle, who fortunately leaves at the end of this week, has happily again lost 5,000 Thaler in a fraudulent speculation. The fellow would rather throw money in the dirt than make a loan to a 'friend' even if interest and capital are guaranteed. He acts on the view that he must live like a Jewish baron or baronised (probably via the Countess) Jew. Silver2195 fucked around with this message at 15:41 on Jan 18, 2014 |
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Jan 18, 2014 15:39
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Yeah, but those were from his private letters to Engels, never actually like published works. In communications like that... you know. He's misquoted like that too, pretty often, with usually the irony/context of the works being misconstrued (like in On The Jewish Question, where his remarks about Jews are meant as a sardonic comparison to the German bourgeoisie). Point taken though.
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Jan 18, 2014 15:49
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SSJ2 Goku Wilders posted:
How is that a 'misquote'?
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Jan 18, 2014 16:05
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The history of all D&D threads is the history of intra-leftist struggle.
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Jan 18, 2014 16:11
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Obdicut posted:How is that a 'misquote'? It admittedly might not be the best word to use in this case, but I am still struggling to find a word that's more useful in describing the intellectual poverty involved with this thing that anti-marxist groups tend to do, where they quote Marx's satirical style out of context to prove the antisemitism of a movement, of which the first successful leader was not only Jewish, but also used everything, including very recently developed and costly technology, to deter and suppress antisemitism. From reading my personal chats with comrades, you might deduce that I was a raging antisemitic identitarian. Practice and published writing prove otherwise though. The same can not be said of the bakunin quote.
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Jan 18, 2014 16:20
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Anyone who ever called anyone a fag or a sissy is clearly an homophobe who is secretly plotting against the rights of homosexuals, right? Truth be told, calling someone a Jewish friend of the family sounds like a post taken right out of GBS 2.1
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Jan 18, 2014 16:26
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SSJ2 Goku Wilders posted:It admittedly might not be the best word to use in this case, but I am still struggling to find a word that's more useful in describing the intellectual poverty involved with this thing that anti-marxist groups tend to do, where they quote Marx's satirical style out of context to prove the antisemitism of a movement, of which the first successful leader was not only Jewish, but also used everything, including very recently developed and costly technology, to deter and suppress antisemitism. Marx wasn't being satirical in many of his polemics against Jews, and I'm not sure why you think he was. His critique of the Jewish religion, for example, was not satirical; he believed that the religion promoted, basically, capitalist practices. His 'stage theory' of history also led to his conclusion that Judaism was a more primitive version of Christianity. Can you explain where you're getting this idea that it was all satire from? Have you read "On the Jewish Question"? quote:From reading my personal chats with comrades, you might deduce that I was a raging antisemitic identitarian. Why, what do you say?
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Jan 18, 2014 16:30
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Being a dipshit only in private conversations still makes you a dipshit, hope this helps. To keep this on topic, the NOP (basically a nationalist collection of idiots in Poland, known for such wondrous displays of civility as chanting "gas the queers" on a LGBT meet) were handing out fliers on the streets yesterday. Something glorifying a murderer for assassinating Gabriel Narutowicz because he was kind of not totally with the right wing idiots. "Back in the day only one murder was necessary, now we have to fight everyone" or some poo poo like that. Substantially worsened my day. Also these same people are against the WOŚP, which is charity organisation raising money for treatment of newborns every year. Why are they against something so noble, you ask? Well, the guy who runs the charity is leftist! e: but hey, at least their logo isn't red, so they ain't nazis after all!  Oh wait that's just the official one, this is the one they actually use in propaganda:  Fascism? We're even worse!!! That's nice isn't it. dex_sda fucked around with this message at 16:43 on Jan 18, 2014 |
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Jan 18, 2014 16:34
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Obdicut posted:Marx wasn't being satirical in many of his polemics against Jews, and I'm not sure why you think he was. His critique of the Jewish religion, for example, was not satirical; he believed that the religion promoted, basically, capitalist practices. His 'stage theory' of history also led to his conclusion that Judaism was a more primitive version of Christianity. obdicut posted:Can you explain where you're getting this idea that it was all satire from? obdicut posted:Have you read "On the Jewish Question"?
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Jan 18, 2014 16:47
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SSJ2 Goku Wilders posted:Could you please go ahead and cite this, thanks in advance. Sorry, the stage-theory bit is actually incorret, however, here's the citations for the rest: quote:We recognize in Judaism, therefore, a general anti-social element of the present time, an element which through historical development – to which in this harmful respect the Jews have zealously contributed – has been brought to its present high level, at which it must necessarily begin to disintegrate. ... quote:We recognize in Judaism, therefore, a general anti-social element of the present time, an element which through historical development – to which in this harmful respect the Jews have zealously contributed – has been brought to its present high level, at which it must necessarily begin to disintegrate. ... quote:Money is the jealous god of Israel, in face of which no other god may exist. Money degrades all the gods of man – and turns them into commodities. Money is the universal self-established value of all things. It has, therefore, robbed the whole world – both the world of men and nature – of its specific value. Money is the estranged essence of man’s work and man’s existence, and this alien essence dominates him, and he worships it. ... quote:The chimerical nationality of the Jew is the nationality of the merchant, of the man of money in general. ... quote:Once society has succeeded in abolishing the empirical essence of Judaism – huckstering and its preconditions – the Jew will have become impossible, because his consciousness no longer has an object, because the subjective basis of Judaism, practical need, has been humanized, and because the conflict between man’s individual-sensuous existence and his species-existence has been abolished. Text from Marxists.org http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1844/jewish-question/ quote:Haha you clearly haven't read anything by Marx ever? What kind of question is this? I've read most of Marx's works. He makes abundant use of satire, but that doesn't mean that he's always being satirical. In particular, when he talks about the connection between "practical Judaism" and capitalism, he's not being satirical. quote:Uhm, have you? Yep.
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Jan 18, 2014 17:14
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Obdicut posted:Sorry, the stage-theory bit is actually incorret, however, here's the citations for the rest: I'm sorry, but you clearly didn't have a good teacher, then. It was obvious in advance what you were going to cite, and I even called it out beforehand: SSJ2 Goku Wilders posted:He's misquoted like that too, pretty often, with usually the irony/context of the works being misconstrued (like in On The Jewish Question, where his remarks about Jews are meant as a sardonic comparison to the German bourgeoisie). I don't have time nor wish to write a full rebuttal to your extremely shallow interpretation, so I hope you don't mind if I quote another sociologist on the topic? Ehh let's see. Yeah, Fine will do: Robert Fine: Marx's Critique of Human Rights: Marx on the Jewish Question posted:Let us turn to another text, written shortly after these spirited attacks on Prussian That's for introduction, now for your argument: ibid. posted:I can hear one more objection to this reading of Marx. It is that he himself ultimately shared This is from Fine's lecture material, it's pretty basic stuff. You can find it here. This might also be of use. Enjoy.
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Jan 18, 2014 17:29
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But I don't agree that it was a sardonic comparison, and that's not really a supportable interpretation. And I fully agree that Marx thought that Jews could be emancipated 'politically' without being emancipated from Judaism. However, as what you're quoting says: quote:The fact that you can be emancipated politically without completely and absolutely renouncing Judaism shows that political emancipation is by itself not human emancipation. I don't think agree with Fine's interpretation of the passage as heavily ironic, and I don't think that it's well-supported in what you quoted, either. I definitely think that he's poking fun at anti-semites who chastize Jews for being in love with money when the larger culture is also in love with money, but he doesn't, at all, deny that Jewish culture, Jewish religion, is in love with money; instead, he affirms that as a reality. I think that Fine has mistaken irony used to attack capitalism here with those ironic statements negating the view of Jewish religion and culture; in fact, the ironic attack on capitalism only works if you affirm those qualities are really part of the Jewish culture and religion. When you asked if I'd read "On the Jewish Question" before, did you actually mean if I'd read (and agreed with) Fine? Or are you saying those pieces I quoted before are obviously ironic--and if so, can you demonstrate that without simply asserting it?
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Jan 18, 2014 17:54
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Tias posted:Here's your huckleberry: http://anarchism.pageabode.com/afaq/append4.html This is a godawful link. Half of the bits on the Russian Revolution aren't even written yet and the rest of is BOLSHEVIKS BAD with nothing on your claim of how anarchists played a major role in the revolution. They didn't
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Jan 18, 2014 17:57
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