|
Hakkesshu posted:Ennis' attempts at humour are possibly the single worst parts of his stories, though. Occasionally, I agree. But stuff like the first two Barracuda arcs in Punisher MAX and much of his Marvel Knights Punisher run gets me. The humor is definitely the most contentious part of his work, though, and I do tend to prefer his more serious works most of the time.
|
#
?
Jan 17, 2014 19:27
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 31, 2024 00:32 |
|
|
Hakkesshu posted:I'm not talking about thematic poo poo, I'm talking about the stuff that's on the page and happening in the story. Which is grody as gently caress. You can't do this. You can't pull this A=A poo poo because intent loving matters. Ennis does this poo poo for a reason, Kirkman does it because he can (and he can't do anything else).
|
|
#
?
Jan 17, 2014 19:28
|
|
|
Literally The Worst posted:You can't do this. You can't pull this A=A poo poo because intent loving matters. Ennis does this poo poo for a reason, Kirkman does it because he can (and he can't do anything else). The idea that Ennis isn't being needlessly gratuitous in his work is absurd.
|
|
#
?
Jan 17, 2014 19:31
|
|
|
Hakkesshu posted:The idea that Ennis isn't being needlessly gratuitous in his work is absurd. Most of the time though it's because it makes sense, thematically. I'm not saying he's perfect, but saying it's exactly the same as Walking Dead is some ignorant poo poo.
|
|
#
?
Jan 17, 2014 19:34
|
|
|
Literally The Worst posted:Most of the time though it's because it makes sense, thematically. I'm not saying he's perfect, but saying it's exactly the same as Walking Dead is some ignorant poo poo. I'm also not saying it's the same, I'm saying that these are the reasons why I find the majority of Ennis' portfolio to be unreadable, cynical pieces of poo poo. You can't just say "well, there's a point to it" when he's putting some of the worst, most gnarly poo poo ever put on paper and expect it to be okay because it serves the story (which I don't think is always the case). As far as I'm concerned, the poo poo that Kirkman is doing looks like babytown frolics by comparison - even if Ennis does things for a reason, I fundamentally disagree that the ends justifies the means.
|
|
#
?
Jan 17, 2014 19:38
|
|
|
Hakkesshu posted:I'm also not saying it's the same, I'm saying that these are the reasons why I find the majority of Ennis' portfolio to be unreadable, cynical pieces of poo poo. You can't just say "well, there's a point to it" when he's putting some of the worst, most gnarly poo poo ever put on paper and expect everyone to be alright with it. As far as I'm concerned, the poo poo that Kirkman is doing looks like babytown frolics by comparison - even if Ennis does things for a reason, I fundamentally disagree that this makes it okay. Robert Kirkman wrote a comic with a two page spread of a young child with a giant loving hole in his head where he got shot. Why did he get shot? Because it's shocking. Why did one of the oldest characters get his head gruesomely flattened with a bat? Because it's shocking. Did ti really add anything? Nope. Just another shocking death. If you don't like violence and poo poo that's cool, but don't be putting literally senseless violence on the same level as a dude who does over-the-top poo poo because, most of the time, it fits with what he's trying to do. Plus you're going "It's gross which automatically makes it bad" like that's an argument with any validity at all.
|
|
#
?
Jan 17, 2014 19:41
|
|
|
I don't know what to say, dude. I feel like whenever I pick up an Ennis book, I'm 90% likely to encounter completely senseless violence within 10 pages.Literally The Worst posted:Plus you're going "It's gross which automatically makes it bad" like that's an argument with any validity at all. That's not what I'm saying. I'm saying that his poo poo is gross and bad.
|
|
#
?
Jan 17, 2014 19:42
|
|
|
Hakkesshu posted:I don't know what to say, dude. I feel like whenever I pick up an Ennis book, I'm 90% likely to encounter completely senseless violence within 10 pages. It's not senseless if there's a point to it, though, that's what you're not getting. If it was senseless violence there would literally be no point to it other than the violence. That's emphatically not the case with Ennis's poo poo, even Crossed. And Ennis's work isn't really cynical! With the exception of Punisher MAX (which I'd argue is cynical because it's a response to Hitman but that's a whole other bag) and Crossed, his books are driven by that shred of hope, by the light at the end of the tunnel. Like The Boys looks like this horribly jaded look at comics, which it partly is, but it's all coming out of the mouths of horrible people. The character the audience is supposed to identify with is the one who says "Wait, no, that's not right", the one who's pointing out that the whole world isn't poo poo. BENGHAZI 2 fucked around with this message at 19:46 on Jan 17, 2014 |
|
#
?
Jan 17, 2014 19:44
|
|
|
The nicest thing I can say about Robert Kirkman is that The Walking Dead is a massive cash cow for Image, which allows them to publish lots of adventurous comics by vastly better writers.
|
|
#
?
Jan 17, 2014 19:44
|
|
|
Literally The Worst posted:It's not senseless if there's a point to it, though, that's what you're not getting. If it was senseless violence there would literally be no point to it other than the violence. That's emphatically not the case with Ennis's poo poo, even Crossed. You can't just emphatically say there's a point to every piece of violence in every single issue of Ennis' work, though. I mean by that same token I could claim there's just as much of a point to the violence in The Walking Dead as there is in every piece of zombie fiction. There are plenty of loving times where Ennis does violence for violence's sake. loving blood orgies are a common trope throughout his books.
|
|
#
?
Jan 17, 2014 19:49
|
|
|
Hakkesshu posted:I mean by that same token I could claim there's just as much of a point to the violence in The Walking Dead as there is in every piece of zombie fiction. You actually cannot because The Walking Dead is literally just a series of murders with no rhyme or reason. You want to talk sound and fury signifying nothing? Walking Dead is a loud angry motherfucker.
|
|
#
?
Jan 17, 2014 19:51
|
|
|
Hakkesshu posted:You can't just emphatically say there's a point to every piece of violence in every single issue of Ennis' work, though. I have read The Boys over and over and I still have no loving idea who is getting curb-stomped in the first page of the first issue.
|
|
#
?
Jan 17, 2014 19:53
|
|
|
Literally The Worst posted:And Ennis's work isn't really cynical! With the exception of Punisher MAX (which I'd argue is cynical because it's a response to Hitman but that's a whole other bag) and Crossed, his books are driven by that shred of hope, by the light at the end of the tunnel. Like The Boys looks like this horribly jaded look at comics, which it partly is, but it's all coming out of the mouths of horrible people. The character the audience is supposed to identify with is the one who says "Wait, no, that's not right", the one who's pointing out that the whole world isn't poo poo. I'd say even Crossed manages to include that shred of hope. One of the most impressive things about that book is that after 8 issues of some of the most horrifying, nightmarish imagery imaginable it manages to find the closest thing possible to a happy ending and not have it feel like a cheat. Hakkesshu posted:You can't just emphatically say there's a point to every piece of violence in every single issue of Ennis' work, though. I mean by that same token I could claim there's just as much of a point to the violence in The Walking Dead as there is in every piece of zombie fiction. There are plenty of loving times where Ennis does violence for violence's sake. loving blood orgies are a common trope throughout his books. This seems like a very strange set of standards to uphold and I'm not sure I fully understand it.
|
|
#
?
Jan 17, 2014 19:53
|
|
|
Literally The Worst posted:You actually cannot because The Walking Dead is literally just a series of murders with no rhyme or reason. Which is the point because the dehumanization and trivialization of death is like the single most common theme in zombie fiction. Volume posted:I have read The Boys over and over and I still have no loving idea who is getting curb-stomped in the first page of the first issue. This is what I'm talking about. Hakkesshu fucked around with this message at 19:56 on Jan 17, 2014 |
|
#
?
Jan 17, 2014 19:54
|
|
|
Uncle Boogeyman posted:I'd say even Crossed manages to include that shred of hope. One of the most impressive things about that book is that after 8 issues of some of the most horrifying, nightmarish imagery imaginable it manages to find the closest thing possible to a happy ending and not have it feel like a cheat. The thing with Ennis's "definition of a hero" schtick is that there always has to be a "hero", which means that 99% of the time there's something worth fighting for, and hope goes along with that. It's literally every book but Punisher and that's because Frank's deliberately chosen (according to Ennis) to be a joyless, hopeless, inhuman killing machine. Hakkesshu posted:Which is the point because the dehumanization and trivialization of death is like the single most common theme in zombie fiction. I would buy this if there was literally anything else in the book to back it up. Volume posted:I have read The Boys over and over and I still have no loving idea who is getting curb-stomped in the first page of the first issue. It's BUtcher fantasizing about stomping on the guy he's watching on the next page.
|
|
#
?
Jan 17, 2014 19:55
|
|
|
Hakkesshu posted:Which is the point because the dehumanization and trivialization of death is like the single most common theme in zombie fiction. This is true, but it also goes hand-in-hand with why The Walking Dead is such lazy hackwork. It's just an endless cycle of zombie/post-apocalypse tropes that resets itself every 1.5 years or so, ad infinitum, until the money runs out.
|
|
#
?
Jan 17, 2014 20:00
|
|
|
I know, it's flimsy reasoning, but it's there. My point is I think Ennis' reasoning is often just as flimsy. Like I said, I like Punisher Max, I think that story successfully uses violence as a thematic cornerstone in a way that makes sense and serves the story and character. But I disagree this also is the case with everything he does. Hell, this entire discussion started because several people thought his work was maybe a little too much at times. I definitely think he's using sex and violence as a crutch more often than not, which is why I don't much care for him. Maybe I sounded a little bit too rabid in my hate for him, but I still don't think he earns it.
|
|
#
?
Jan 17, 2014 20:06
|
|
|
Hakkesshu posted:I definitely think he's using sex and violence as a crutch more often than not See this implies that he's incapable of writing a good comic without these things and yet Hitman exists.
|
|
#
?
Jan 17, 2014 20:08
|
|
|
Literally The Worst posted:See this implies that he's incapable of writing a good comic without these things and yet Hitman exists. Dickeye I'm on your side here but I would not use Hitman as an example of a comic free of sex and violence.
|
|
#
?
Jan 17, 2014 20:11
|
|
|
Literally The Worst posted:See this implies that he's incapable of writing a good comic without these things and yet Hitman exists. I actually haven't read Hitman, primarily because I don't like most of his other stuff, but I know people here love it. Look, I never meant to imply that he was incapable of writing a good comic. He's not Mark Millar. It's not even that I hate sex and violence. Like I said, Berserk is a personal favourite. But something about the tone and feel in books like Preacher and The Boys just rubs me the wrong way, hard.
|
|
#
?
Jan 17, 2014 20:13
|
|
|
Uncle Boogeyman posted:Dickeye I'm on your side here but I would not use Hitman as an example of a comic free of sex and violence. It's definitely the most toned down of his books though, is my point. Like it doesn't nearly hit the levels of Preacher or The Boys or Punisher, and yet it's probably his best book! Hakkesshu posted:He's not Mark Millar. Kick-rear end is a fantastic hate screed against Mark Millar fans, don't loving step.
|
|
#
?
Jan 17, 2014 20:13
|
|
|
Literally The Worst posted:Kick-rear end is a fantastic hate screed against Mark Millar fans, don't loving step. Kick-rear end blows chunks apart from some very nice JrJr artwork but I will throw my hat in the ring for Ultimates 1 & 2. But now we're getting off topic.
|
|
#
?
Jan 17, 2014 20:26
|
|
|
Uncle Boogeyman posted:Kick-rear end blows chunks apart from some very nice JrJr artwork but I will throw my hat in the ring for Ultimates 1 & 2. I loving love Kick-rear end because it's impossible to read it as anything other than Mark Millar hating the people who thought Wesley from Wanted was a cool guy. The main character, a sad sack shitheap, is named after a dude who won an auction for it. It's a beautiful cry of anger followed by five years of just giving up. It's a garbage comic though.
|
|
#
?
Jan 17, 2014 20:48
|
|
|
Literally The Worst posted:It's BUtcher fantasizing about stomping on the guy he's watching on the next page. No it isn't, because Butcher's watching the Homelander on the next page. The guy getting stomped isn't anyone, he's just a palette-swapped Captain America-type abd the stomping is setting the tone.
|
|
#
?
Jan 17, 2014 20:52
|
|
|
Literally The Worst posted:I loving love Kick-rear end because it's impossible to read it as anything other than Mark Millar hating the people who thought Wesley from Wanted was a cool guy. The main character, a sad sack shitheap, is named after a dude who won an auction for it. It's a beautiful cry of anger followed by five years of just giving up. I think you are giving Millar too much credit.
|
|
#
?
Jan 17, 2014 20:58
|
|
|
Jedit posted:No it isn't, because Butcher's watching the Homelander on the next page. The guy getting stomped isn't anyone, he's just a palette-swapped Captain America-type abd the stomping is setting the tone. It's still Butcher fantasizing. It's a dude in black pants and black combat boots stomping on a dude's head and then the next page you meet a guy who fits that descirption who hates superheroes. This really isn't reaching. Madkal posted:I think you are giving Millar too much credit. The book goes out of its way to poo poo on Dave and his fantasies at every turn and make him look like a pathetic sack of poo poo for thinking this bullshit is cool. It's very deliberate.
|
|
#
?
Jan 17, 2014 21:19
|
|
|
The Boys is very flawed. However, it does have some very good writing buried under all the extreme shock stuff. An example: the white house. The Prez in The Boys is: an old white man, a rightwing conservative and in the pocket of Halliburton, willing to do horrendous military acts for America. He may as well have been Cheney. If this were most other comics, he'd be an antagonist, or at least portrayed negatively against the brave hero fighting against The System. In The Boys, he's sympathetic in that the writing makes it clear there's no bad/good, there's just different sides. The Boys themselves are not heroes, they are violent psychopaths, but because they're fighting even WORSE psychopaths, they are the protagonists. That's why Hughie is written as he is, the simple "nice" guy who can have no part of that world. Hughie's optimism and desire to be good is the shining point in a world of shades of grey and shittier grey. And then a dick joke.
|
|
#
?
Jan 17, 2014 23:01
|
|
|
Mister Roboto posted:The Boys is very flawed. However, it does have some very good writing buried under all the extreme shock stuff. One of the recurring themes is the corruption of the innocent, and I think my favorite thing that goes along with it is Hughie's clothes. For the vast majority of the series, he wears that same stupid green hoodie and blue jeans under his black overcoat, in stark contrast to the Boys, who all wear solid black all the time (except Frenchie but close enough). It's this awesome little visual thing that sets him apart and shows how little he's really changing, that he's still the same guy he was at the start, just pretending to be one of The Boys. Then in the last issue, he's gotten rid of the coat and the hoodie, because he's let go of the violence and the grief like Butcher never could. I love The Boys.
|
|
#
?
Jan 17, 2014 23:11
|
|
Pope Guilty posted:Somebody needs to inform Ennis that Americans don't say "bloody" or "arse". There's seriously a ton of exchanges between supposedly American characters that Ennis has written that don't make any sense whatsoever unless you assume they're secretly british. I find Ennis to be capable of writing very profound and interesting stuff but his sense of humor is seriously more juvenile than South Park and he has really obnoxious writing tics even beyond the insanely warped view of pubs as some kind of cultural balm, the inability to write people who aren't british, the obsession with equating sexual potency with moral character and power, the repeated and protracted use of sexual deviancy as a way of dehumanizing villains, the over the top gore, and the junior high view of romance and love. Sometimes I'll read something by Ennis and go "Hell yeah" or kinda laugh or find it poignant. But other times I'll read something like The Boys and kinda wish he'd stop writing forever.
|
|
|
#
?
Jan 17, 2014 23:18
|
|
|
Lurdiak posted:There's seriously a ton of exchanges between supposedly American characters that Ennis has written that don't make any sense whatsoever unless you assume they're secretly british. And yet Garth Ennis handled a rape scene more delicately and with more class than DC handles basically anything.
|
|
#
?
Jan 17, 2014 23:27
|
|
Literally The Worst posted:And yet Garth Ennis handled a rape scene more delicately and with more class than DC handles basically anything. Yeah, but if it's a man getting raped, that's comedy gold.
|
|
|
#
?
Jan 18, 2014 00:02
|
|
|
Lurdiak posted:Yeah, but if it's a man getting raped, that's comedy gold. It's not like anything has changed at all since Preacher or anything. Or like Preacher is his absolute worst book by a country mile for a whole bunch of reasons.
|
|
#
?
Jan 18, 2014 00:33
|
|
|
Literally The Worst posted:It's still Butcher fantasizing. It's a dude in black pants and black combat boots stomping on a dude's head and then the next page you meet a guy who fits that descirption who hates superheroes. This really isn't reaching. I didn't think I implied that it wasn't Butcher fantasising - or more probably reminiscing. I'm with you on Kick-rear end as well. Dave Lizewski could be seen as a positive character in book 1, but thereafter every poo poo thing that happens to someone not irredeemable is directly linked to his acting the hero, culminating in the murder of a bunch of people who never raised a hand to anyone. The depth of his obsession is made plain at the start of Kick-rear end 3, where he's visiting his father's grave and asking his friend to make sure the photos are suitably dramatic. Between that and Hit-Girl's conversation with Gigante at the end of Kick-rear end 2 there's just no way to see Millar as thinking the costumed heroes are in the right.
|
|
#
?
Jan 18, 2014 01:00
|
|
|
Jedit posted:I'm with you on Kick-rear end as well. Dave Lizewski could be seen as a positive character in book 1 False. Dave is presented as a pathetic turd from the very beginning. He's a borderline invisible nerd having the dumbest arguments with his friends, fantasizing about his middle-aged teacher, and the girl he likes thinks he's a creeper. Then he tries to live out his fantasies and ends up in the hospital and only gets close to Katie because she thinks he's gay. Then Big Daddy is revealed to literally be grown-up Dave, risking a child's life (and his own!) to fuel the same stupid fantasy, selling his comic collection to afford it, right before he takes a bullet to the dome. Again, Dave is named after a guy who cared enough to essentially pay to have the character named after him. The whole thing is a long troll job. Kick-rear end 1 is a loving screed against his fans. Kick-rear end 2, I think, is him throwing in the towel. The third book has some of the same poo poo as one but it felt really half-hearted for the few issues I read.
|
|
#
?
Jan 18, 2014 01:06
|
|
|
Dang with all these new posts in the thread I assumed people were actually talking about Vertigo books...huh. Anybody read the new Coffin Hill?
|
|
#
?
Jan 18, 2014 02:12
|
|
|
I finally got around to reading Punk Rock Jesus. I was worried it was going to basically be a long Christopher Hitchens rant and while parts of it definitely were in that vein, the fact that most of that stuff was coming from a 15 year old character made it easier to swallow (plus the fact that one such rant featured a holographic Carl Sagan playing with the solar system, which was awesome). I also really loved the Thomas McKael character - the slow unveiling of his background was probably my favorite part of the book.
|
|
#
?
Jan 18, 2014 02:25
|
|
|
I absolutely love Garth Ennis. Yes, he is hit and miss, but with stories like Dangerous Habits, Welcome Back Frank, Punisher Born, and Preacher: All In The Family, it's hard to argue that he's a bad writer. After Moore kind of invented the audience for Vertigo style comics, I'd argue that Ennis was the best man they had take over the reigns. Maybe I'm 13 going on 40, but I'd take Ennis over Gaiman, Ellis, Milligan, Morrison, Delano, or any of the other writers who gained their fame from the Vertigo imprint in it's heyday.
|
|
#
?
Jan 18, 2014 23:35
|
|
|
God Of Paradise posted:Maybe I'm 13 going on 40, but I'd take Ennis over Gaiman, Ellis, Milligan, Morrison, Delano, or any of the other writers who gained their fame from the Vertigo imprint in it's heyday. Yes, god yes, depends, gently caress no are you high, and depends, in that order.
|
|
#
?
Jan 19, 2014 00:39
|
|
|
Grant Morrison's output is best summed up in his book Supergods. It is a very good history of comic writing right up to the point where his career takes off, at which point it turns into "These famous guys did some stuff. Then I took a bunch of drugs and redefined the genre". That isn't to say he can't write good stuff - I will personally smite anyone who says WE3 or Joe the Barbarian suck - but he is very much better when he isn't allowed to carry on.
|
|
#
?
Jan 19, 2014 01:04
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 31, 2024 00:32 |
|
|
Jedit posted:Grant Morrison's output is best summed up in his book Supergods. It is a very good history of comic writing right up to the point where his career takes off, at which point it turns into "These famous guys did some stuff. Then I took a bunch of drugs and redefined the genre". That isn't to say he can't write good stuff - I will personally smite anyone who says WE3 or Joe the Barbarian suck - but he is very much better when he isn't allowed to carry on. I really liked the Invisibles but then when I read it I was super into hallucinogens, conspiracy theories, and mystical nonsense so that probably coloured my opinion somewhat
|
|
#
?
Jan 19, 2014 10:14
|
|
