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Has anyone else heard that story of a group of a few hundred legionaries that ended up in China? It was after Crassus got his rear end handed to him in Parthia, what was left of his legion fled east and kept going and I've heard of Chinese documents describing strange looking men who used their shields like a tortoise (testudo). Can't remember where I heard the story though.
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Jan 18, 2014 02:00
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Thrasophius posted:Has anyone else heard that story of a group of a few hundred legionaries that ended up in China? It was after Crassus got his rear end handed to him in Parthia, what was left of his legion fled east and kept going and I've heard of Chinese documents describing strange looking men who used their shields like a tortoise (testudo). Can't remember where I heard the story though. Literally on the last page (that you were looking at when you posted): Grand Fromage posted:It's a fun story but likely not true. I have read that at least one of the Roman captives ended up in Baktria, because there's an inscription there by him with his name and legion. There was DNA analysis of the inhabitants of that town and they don't have the DNA to be descendents of the legionaries. There were Caucasian looking people in what is now west China, called the Yuezhi. If anything, white-ish people in China/Central Asia like the ones in Liqian are probably descended from them.
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Jan 18, 2014 02:18
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Yes, it's like a lava lamp.
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Octy posted:I suppose the Roman Empire is the first instance in history of being able to do that. I mean, at its peak you could be living in North Africa, walk along the coastline up through Asia and into Europe and take a ship to Britain and along the way you'd be able to rest assured that at least some people would speak the same language (of course, you'd only want to talk to the local elites, not the hoi polloi who wouldn't necessarily know Latin or Greek) and generally expect everyone to abide by the same laws and customs. During the Egyptian Middle Kingdom, you could go from Kadesh to Meroe and rasonably expect to be in ”civilized” lands for the whole journey. Same with the Assyrian middle kingdom, you could go from Elam to Tyre on well-maintained roads marked out by road signs and skullpiles, all the while speaking Aramaic and without much danger to your caravan. Unless you were a rebel, in which case you were probably heading to one of the skullpiles anyway.
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Jan 18, 2014 03:09
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Wouldn't the best counterpoint to, 'the Roman Empire was the first state to civilize a vast region' be Ancient eastern China? Was the, say, Shang Dynasty a hegemony over a larger area than the early Mesopotamian empires? I might be way off on this..
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Jan 18, 2014 03:16
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I.W.W. ATTITUDE posted:Wouldn't the best counterpoint to, 'the Roman Empire was the first state to civilize a vast region' be Ancient eastern China? Was the, say, Shang Dynasty a hegemony over a larger area than the early Mesopotamian empires? I might be way off on this.. I wouldn't know, but wasn't the Roman Empire the first to cover three continents in contiguous territory, more or less? I think a good question to ask would be to the extent to which the central governments actually controlled their empires and were able to impose their laws and customs and culture and language on the inhabitants. The Romans definitely had issues with some of that towards the end. EDIT - Okay, I forgot about the Macedonian Empire in terms of size, but to be fair the whole thing split up after Alexander's death, if I recall correctly, whereas the Roman Empire, and I presume at least some of these Chinese empires were longer lived. Octy fucked around with this message at 03:41 on Jan 18, 2014 |
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Jan 18, 2014 03:28
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Thrasophius posted:Has anyone else heard that story of a group of a few hundred legionaries that ended up in China? It was after Crassus got his rear end handed to him in Parthia, what was left of his legion fled east and kept going and I've heard of Chinese documents describing strange looking men who used their shields like a tortoise (testudo). Can't remember where I heard the story though. You heard it, at some remove, from Homer H. Dubs in 1941. (actual article) It's been pretty thoroughly debunked since then.
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Jan 18, 2014 03:41
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Octy posted:I wouldn't know, but wasn't the Roman Empire the first to cover three continents in contiguous territory, more or less? I think a good question to ask would be to the extent to which the central governments actually controlled their empires and were able to impose their laws and customs and culture and language on the inhabitants. The Romans definitely had issues with some of that towards the end. Uh... think there might have been another empire, bout as as big as the Macedonian one, including parts of Africa, Asia, and Europe. Somewhat longer lived.
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Jan 18, 2014 03:49
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Hargrimm posted:You heard it, at some remove, from Homer H. Dubs in 1941. (actual article) It's been pretty thoroughly debunked since then. Yep, he originated it. One of the other things was that some Roman military equipment has turned up in China. There are a lot of more likely explanations than Roman legionaries fighting the Chinese though. Trade in curios, trade in equipment to be used (possibly Roman enemies like the Parthians selling off equipment they captured in battles), the embassies bringing legionary guards with them, Roman equipment finding its way into use among mercenaries, etc. If you read science and are familiar with parsimony, the same thing applies in history. I do understand why he thought it though. I saw the drawings he refers to in university (and have never been able to find them again) and it does look absolutely like a bunch of Romans doing a testudo. It would be awesome if it were true. Grand Fromage fucked around with this message at 04:05 on Jan 18, 2014 |
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Jan 18, 2014 04:03
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Squalid posted:Uh... think there might have been another empire, bout as as big as the Macedonian one, including parts of Africa, Asia, and Europe. Somewhat longer lived. Well, don't be coy. Out with it. I suppose you're referring to the Achaemenid Empire? This heat is making me very tired so I do apologise for overlooking it. Still, my question is probably relevant to it.
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Jan 18, 2014 04:03
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Yes, although you might be fair to question the degree to which they spread their laws and customs. Their language of administration was a form of Aramaic and was still widespread during the Roman era.
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Jan 18, 2014 04:28
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Squalid posted:Yes, although you might be fair to question the degree to which they spread their laws and customs. Their language of administration was a form of Aramaic and was still widespread during the Roman era. Want to do a proper write-up? I know little about them and it's going to be a long afternoon.
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Jan 18, 2014 04:39
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Oberleutnant posted:I can't even imagine how isolated and alone those first human settlements must have felt. I've never been alone in any sense - I live in an urban development of 200,000 people, and could walk hundreds of miles in almost any direction without ever straying more than a mile from some city, town or village, and know that everywhere I go, everybody speaks my language and (generally) abides by the same laws and customs. I can expect protection, shelter, medical care and food on demand. 70000 years ago there was perhaps only 10,000 humans in the entire universe. Imagine how empty earth was then.
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Jan 18, 2014 04:48
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I think the weirdest time would've been when anatomically modern humans were around, likely with language and culture, but there were still multiple other species of human who may have also been equally intelligent with language and culture of their own. Imagine racism in a world where there literally are other intelligent species. Ugh.
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Jan 18, 2014 04:57
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Grand Fromage posted:I think the weirdest time would've been when anatomically modern humans were around, likely with language and culture, but there were still multiple other species of human who may have also been equally intelligent with language and culture of their own. This is the reason why I sometimes wish I was born right around the time we come into contact with intelligent extraterrestrials. (provided we don't die off by then, and if they exist) Seeing how humans treat intelligent alien brethren would be interesting, to say the least.
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Jan 18, 2014 05:00
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Oh they shagged them. They shagged the Neanderthals rotten.
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Jan 18, 2014 05:05
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euphronius posted:Oh they shagged them. They shagged the Neanderthals rotten. Hobbits are really more my bag, baby.
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Jan 18, 2014 06:04
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The Entire Universe posted:What's neat is that you're probably looking at the oldest long-term human development as the Ag Revolution occurred around that time. Before that of course there were likely people that domesticated grains and stuff but most were hunter-gatherer and thus needed to be mobile to one degree or another. Some archeologists have suggested Göbekli Tepe actually predates agriculture, that is to say it was built by people who were primarily hunter-gatherers. According to this hypothesis Göbekli Tepe was built as a ceremonial center at which everyone in the district would gather for seasonal rituals. Agriculture then developed, they say, to help support the large numbers clamoring to participate in the big ceremonies. Octy posted:Want to do a proper write-up? I know little about them and it's going to be a long afternoon. Well I'm not an expert but the Achaemenid Empire was huge, sophisticated, and did in fact control parts of Europe and Africa, in fact Macedonia was a subject state for years. Their control was decentralized compared to the Romans but was solid enough the Macedonians mostly kept their administrative system intact, well besides the part where they fractured the ancient civilized empire into 1/2 dozen squabbling petty states. Although the highest administrative unit of the Empire, the Satrapy, had a fair amount of autonomy, that the Persian Kings could call up armies of hundreds of thousands from their vassals and then march them across a road network reaching from Turkey to Pakistan indicates they must have had some authority. Don't underestimate their cultural impacts, either. Zoroastrianism took shaped within the Achaemenid state and the Greek author Xenophon wrote glowingly about the Persian King Cyrus the Great. Aramaic was the lingua france throughout the middle east until it was gradually replaced with Greek and subsequently Arabic.
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Jan 18, 2014 08:47
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Noctis Horrendae posted:This is the reason why I sometimes wish I was born right around the time we come into contact with intelligent extraterrestrials. (provided we don't die off by then, and if they exist) Seeing how humans treat intelligent alien brethren would be interesting, to say the least. You still might? 
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Jan 18, 2014 09:03
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Octy posted:I wouldn't know, but wasn't the Roman Empire the first to cover three continents in contiguous territory, more or less? I think a good question to ask would be to the extent to which the central governments actually controlled their empires and were able to impose their laws and customs and culture and language on the inhabitants. The Romans definitely had issues with some of that towards the end. To be fair, being in the middle of Asia makes it pretty hard to expand your empire onto other continents before you hit a geographical or logistical wall.
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Jan 18, 2014 10:02
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I.W.W. ATTITUDE posted:Wouldn't the best counterpoint to, 'the Roman Empire was the first state to civilize a vast region' be Ancient eastern China? Was the, say, Shang Dynasty a hegemony over a larger area than the early Mesopotamian empires? I might be way off on this.. I don't know about how the Shang compared to Mesopotamian empires but the Qin unified northern China in 221 BC when Rome was still duking it out with Carthage. Then the Han dynasty took over in 206 BC and expanded to southern China by 87 BC, 50 years before Julius Caesar and Augustus brought down the Roman Republic. That dynasty was always bigger than Rome when it comes to land area (no Mediterranean in China) but the population was about the same, I think. It also fell apart sooner (AD 220), although Rome almost did too shortly after. Also to be pedantic... You mean 'conquer', not 'civilize'. Rome liked to talk itself up but the other nations of the time weren't particularly backwards in comparison except when it came to waging war.
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Jan 18, 2014 10:46
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Unify may be a better term there I think? Conquests happen a lot, but integrating them such that their people consider themselves to be of the conquerer's nation, and retains pride in said nation after the empire has fallen is essentially creating a new common identity.
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Jan 18, 2014 10:56
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That's a good point. I even used the word about the Qin dynasty which did that for China. Well, that is to say, the Qin dynasty created the idea of a unified empire and the Han dynasty made the notion stick by virtue of not being insanely authoritarian.
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Jan 18, 2014 11:03
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Kassad posted:That's a good point. I even used the word about the Qin dynasty which did that for China. Well, that is to say, the Qin dynasty created the idea of a unified empire and the Han dynasty made the notion stick by virtue of not being insanely authoritarian. That's a popular misconception- the Qin dynasty was authoritarian no doubt, but the Han was equally so, they just did a better job of it and even ended up exacting better control over the population. Here's a crosspost from D&D The only substantial historical records for that period of history are in Sima Qian's "Shiji," and Sima Qian was a historian of the western Han- the dynasty directly after Qin. Sima Qian had a bit of a grudge against the Han dynasty, but it was obviously impolitic to say so directly, so basically he used Qin as a punching bag to point out Han's problems. This wasn't a singular incident either, because Jia Yi's famous "Guo Qin Lun" (which Sima Qian appends to his work in the appropriate location as a footnote of sorts) does the exact same thing. In fact, this sort of sideways criticism is common in Chinese historiography. A careful reading of the "Shiji" reveals that the Han actually continued all of the bad things Qin was doing- and made it even worse and more effective in some cases. This also goes to show that, well, Qin wasn't that bad. The reason Qin fell apart so quickly wasn't its brutality (after all Xiang Yu who helps overthrow Qin buries an entire army of Qin soldiers alive...), but because of complex regional-political issues that we don't really have access to anymore. Sima Qian basically says this. And actually, this entire issue was hashed out by historical commentators in the Song dynasty (the Chinese loved writing about historical writings), and you have Ou Yangxiu and the Su Father/Brothers saying, yeah, basically when they're talking about Qin they mean Han. So , I know people love to say that poo poo about Qin, but it's not really a useful or true or even been accepted in Chinese historiography for like a millennium. PS I also want to point out an issue that anyone can go check directly in the Book of Han or Shiji, which is that the Qin Emperor did not "burn the books." He collected them in his capital. His capital was captured by Liu Bang (founder of the Han), but he was temporarily forced to give it to his rival Xiang Yu, who then burnt the poo poo out of it. The books were burnt at that time, not by Qin Shihuang.
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Jan 18, 2014 15:49
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Kassad posted:Also to be pedantic... You mean 'conquer', not 'civilize'. Rome liked to talk itself up but the other nations of the time weren't particularly backwards in comparison except when it came to FTFY
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Jan 18, 2014 16:31
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Engineering in general. Even the most fanatical Greece ruled Rome sucked dudes won't argue about Rome's engineering prowess.
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Jan 18, 2014 17:44
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Grand Fromage posted:They did know a little about it both from reports and the wild silk in Europe, which I never knew was a thing until a book I just read. Also the Romans would import Chinese silk, reweave it into thicker stuff, and export it back to China. The Parthians pulled off a hilarious scam and convinced the Chinese that this was Roman silk and was higher quality, and for hundreds of years the Chinese bought back their own silk at a markup, the Parthians skimming profits both ways. Going to need to see a citation for this. I've never come across this.
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Jan 18, 2014 19:50
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Komet posted:Going to need to see a citation for this. I've never come across this. quote:In "The Silk Trade between China and the Roman Empire at Its Height, 'Circa' A. D. 90-130," J. Thorley argues that the Parthians (c. 200 B.C. - c. A.D. 200), serving as trading intermediaries between China and the Roman Empire, sold fancy Chinese brocades to Rome and then, using some deceit about silkworm cocoons in the Roman Empire, sold re-weavings of gauzy silk back to the Chinese. The Chinese, admittedly, lacked the technology for the weaving, but they might have been scandalized to realize they had provided the raw material.
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Jan 18, 2014 20:07
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Grand Fromage posted:Engineering in general. Even the most fanatical Greece ruled Rome sucked dudes won't argue about Rome's engineering prowess. Hey you never know what people might try to argue, there was that one poster in here way back when that was basically trying to say ancient Rome and Greece were superior civilizations to us.
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Jan 18, 2014 20:17
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Amused to Death posted:Hey you never know what people might try to argue, there was that one poster in here way back when that was basically trying to say ancient Rome and Greece were superior civilizations to us. I'm consistently amazed when I found out that there are people who really believe that things like gender equality have just gone too far!
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Jan 18, 2014 20:29
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Agesilaus, right? What a guy. I too yearn for the days when only the rich had rights, and I would likely die of tetanus from accidentally slicing my hand on a tool.
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Jan 19, 2014 00:32
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I wasn't thinking of anybody here in particular, although from what I recall he probably fits the bill.
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Jan 19, 2014 00:45
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All I'm saying is the Spartans had a highly efficient class system which puts our current one to shame. and of course, if we were to hypothetically go back to such a system, I would definitely be part of the Homoioi
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Jan 19, 2014 03:21
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ColtMcAsskick posted:All I'm saying is the Spartans had a highly efficient class system which puts our current one to shame. From what I recall the guy did once say that he's a member of some European aristocracy or at the very least he comes from a wealthy upper class family, which given the size of the SA userbase isn't unlikely.
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Jan 19, 2014 03:37
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Octy posted:From what I recall the guy did once say that he's a member of some European aristocracy or at the very least he comes from a wealthy upper class family, which given the size of the SA userbase isn't unlikely. I can see that. 
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Jan 19, 2014 06:28
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It's the modern day Agesilaus.
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Jan 19, 2014 06:42
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I really have to wonder what kind of royalty in europe actually takes themselves seriously anymore considering they stopped being relevant beyond ceremonial poo poo after World War 1.
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Jan 19, 2014 07:41
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Not quite. Monarchies continued to play an important role in government well after WWI. The idea that a monarch ought to be impartial in theory and practice is fairly new. Queen Elizabeth II was the first in Britain at least to be such. It's not a huge outrage as many seem to think that Prince Charles might actually want to influence the government as he's only following in the footsteps of his ancestors bar one. At any rate, this is getting a little off-topic.
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Jan 19, 2014 08:23
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And it's been suggested that QEII might be a little more active in steering the helm than most of us give her credit for. And she's apparently reasonably left-leaning too.
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Jan 19, 2014 08:33
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Octy posted:From what I recall the guy did once say that he's a member of some European aristocracy or at the very least he comes from a wealthy upper class family, which given the size of the SA userbase isn't unlikely. IT doesn't matter anyone cause he lives in loving Chicago
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Jan 19, 2014 09:17
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Squalid posted:IT doesn't matter anyone cause he lives in loving Chicago Yeah, but if we go back to a Spartan style society he will be ruling over you! Better get used to the future, buddy.
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Jan 19, 2014 09:26
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