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Your problem is expecting Devil May Cry from Demon's/Dark Souls because holy poo poo that is not even a remotely fair comparison to either. They're just not that kind of game, period (neither is Mega Man Zero, I don't get that one at all). You might prefer Dragon's Dogma, though it has a whole different set of issues.
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Jan 19, 2014 06:37
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I'm in the same boat with Dark Souls' success. I do like the way the game controls, and its attitude towards difficulty, narrative and world building, but I hate the boss/combat design. Bayonetta is a great example of brilliant combat design—all of the game logic is completely deterministic, all attacks are well signposted and it makes other affordances that makes being hit your own stupid fault every single time. It's designed to be mastered, and then made your own. It's a game with completely differenet goals to DeS/DaS, but I find myself longing for those features when playing anything with melee combat and Dark Souls is no exception For all of Dark Souls' cool ideas it just feels kinda unfair for the sake of it. A test of will nearly as much as a test of skill. It definitely makes for entertaining streaming though.
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Jan 19, 2014 06:43
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Dark souls has a lot of problems but I don't think it's possible to describe it as unfair.
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Jan 19, 2014 06:49
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Hashy posted:I'm in the same boat with Dark Souls' success. I do like the way the game controls, and its attitude towards difficulty, narrative and world building, but I hate the boss/combat design. Bayonetta is a great example of brilliant combat design—all of the game logic is completely deterministic, all attacks are well signposted and it makes other affordances that makes being hit your own stupid fault every single time. It's designed to be mastered, and then made your own. It's a game with completely differenet goals to DeS/DaS, but I find myself longing for those features when playing anything with melee combat and Dark Souls is no exception I love Dark/Demon's Souls and Bayonetta. They are both the exact same design philosophy of "look get good at video games again you limp dicked soft gently caress". I do not know how you hold Bayonetta up and denounce Souls for both going "hey this is what we're doing here. This is the game mechanics. This is your skill set. GET GOOD FUCKER!" Edit: Souls gets an edge for not having a terrible 15 minute complete gameplay change homage to lovely old games. Twice. Bayonetta needs to get called on that poo poo more often because goddamn. That is some top tier garbage gameplay in an otherwise pretty great game. Nohman fucked around with this message at 06:55 on Jan 19, 2014 |
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Jan 19, 2014 06:50
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Nohman posted:I love Dark/Demon's Souls and Bayonetta. They are both the exact same design philosophy of "look get good at video games again you limp dicked soft gently caress". I do not know how you hold Bayonetta up and denounce Souls for both going "hey this is what we're doing here. This is the game mechanics. This is your skill set. GET GOOD FUCKER!" Bayonetta is fast and dark souls is slow
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Jan 19, 2014 06:53
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Bayonetta has one of the best approaches to varying difficulty I've ever seen in a game. Besides the levels being stocked with different enemies in different environments, those enemies also have completely new attacks and routines depending on how hard you're playing. It makes for a really interesting experience and shows Platinum put a ton of thought into it.
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Jan 19, 2014 06:55
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Mu Zeta posted:Do you utilize the bat tech? If only. I've been able to utilize the much less bragged about 'suicide by thrown objects' tech quite a bit though so there's that.
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Jan 19, 2014 07:11
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Nohman posted:Edit: Souls gets an edge for not having a terrible 15 minute complete gameplay change homage to lovely old games. Twice. Bayonetta needs to get called on that poo poo more often because goddamn. That is some top tier garbage gameplay in an otherwise pretty great game.  You should read the DMC/Bayonetta threads because the people who love those games like a lot of you love Dark Souls are the first to call out that kind of bullshit. Seriously gently caress the Space Harrier Sequence. Luckily after the first time it's super easy to just breeze through it. Manatee Cannon posted:Your problem is expecting Devil May Cry from Demon's/Dark Souls because holy poo poo that is not even a remotely fair comparison to either. They're just not that kind of game, period (neither is Mega Man Zero, I don't get that one at all). You might prefer Dragon's Dogma, though it has a whole different set of issues. To simplify my point: Bayo/DMC/MMZ=Fast, twitch controls while still being difficult and requiring skill De/DS= Slow, methodical, deliberate. I understand why people love the souls games. There's things about them I like. I don't find the actual gameplay (the Slow, methodical, deliberate movement and attacks) to be fun. I prefer the former type of action game over the latter. Hope that helps.
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Jan 19, 2014 07:12
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Everything but the MMZ thing, which I don't think I'll ever see. Wasn't trying to say you were wrong not to like it or anything.
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Jan 19, 2014 07:16
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Nohman posted:They are both the exact same design philosophy
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Jan 19, 2014 07:17
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I wonder what was the catalyst of bringing Dark Souls "back" in the mind of the common gamer. At least for me it was Vinnys streams. Before his streams I dabbled in DS for about an hour or so before I realized that my patience wasn't enough for this game. Now playing it again and just not giving up every time you lose like 3000 souls, it seems fun.
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Jan 19, 2014 07:38
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Hashy posted:No loving way. Souls plays so well on stream because it's more "do anything you can to overcome a game that hates you". It's moments like "the archers" and "that skeleton kick" and "stupid half dinosaurs that stomp you to poo poo and aren't even designed to be fought" that stick in your memory and excite stream viewers. This, basically. Those things are some of the unfair poo poo that some people complain about that the average player is realistically never going to see coming because unless you're stopping every room and examining every corner of each area with the Binoculars or spinning the camera around in ways that super unnatural for how that area's designed you're just going to die once for no real reason other than an arbitrary unfun trap the designers put it. For example with that Skeleton Kick: literally everything about that path is designed to make you focus forward so you can deal with the ranged attacker and once you do make it safely the game pulls a giant 'GOTCHA!' and kills you. And those kind of moments really do help the streaming. Like in Vinny's game he was slowly working his way across and was looking successful then BOOM, DEAD! It was hilarious, his reaction was great, but that set up was still 100% bullshit. Which is fine, I mean no game's perfect and a few Gotcha moments are stupid, but tolerable in the over all package.
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Jan 19, 2014 07:40
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ZenMasterBullshit posted:This, basically. I dunno if I can agree with this. The game teaches you very quickly to prioritize checking blind corners. I didn't get kicked off in that spot because I held out my shield and panned my camera around to see what was there, as you're kinda expected to do. Vinny says basically the same thing in Brad's Demon's Souls video. There are only two moments in Dark Souls that I think are bullshit. First is the dragon bridge near the beginning, which you cannot see coming at all the first time. The other is the first ooze in the sewers that falls on your head when you go to grab an item. Technically you can see that one, but the game has never given you any reason to always check the ceiling, puts you in a room where you can't see the ceiling easily, and locks you in place with the item grab animation. Neither of these things will typically kill you if you're at full health though, at least.
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Jan 19, 2014 07:57
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Fun fact: Yoshida said that Demon's/Dark Souls is the reason the PS4 has a share button.
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Jan 19, 2014 08:04
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If one would like some more Dark Souls style gaming, would some Monster Hunter scratch that same itch?
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Jan 19, 2014 08:05
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JuHoZ posted:If one would like some more Dark Souls style gaming, would some Monster Hunter scratch that same itch? If you mean the movement/controls style: yes. If you mean the traps and narrative: No. Play Demon's Souls. It's like Dark Souls but with slightly better area design and slightly worse NPCs. ZenMasterBullshit fucked around with this message at 08:10 on Jan 19, 2014 |
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Jan 19, 2014 08:07
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If you want to play more Dark Souls, there's always Demon's Souls to get into until DS2 comes out. Or go on Ebay and collect the King's Field series (along with that proto Demon's Souls PS2 game I forgot the name of.) Or La-Mulana.
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Jan 19, 2014 08:10
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Yeah, I'm just watching some old Professional Wednesdays and they play Monster Hunter. Seems like the game is kinda similar with the animation priorities and hard bosses. Of course it loses some of the impact by not being set in a depressing as gently caress environment.
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Jan 19, 2014 08:12
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RIP Professional Wednesdays, Random PC Games, TNTs, Load Our Last Saves
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Jan 19, 2014 08:13
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Putting aside Demon Souls, which by nature of being an experiment is prone to outright horseshit fairly regularly, I do agree that there are some unfair moments even in Dark Souls, but there really are only a few, everything else tends to be stuff like "check blind corners" which you should really have learned by the time you're dealing with the Tomb. The biggest to me is the forced loss to Seath because that's COMPLETELY against the philosophy of the rest of the game. Lost Izalith is rife with garbage admittedly but even the devs hate that place.
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Jan 19, 2014 08:14
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Lost Izalith had to of been a really, really, really rushed area. I mean, it had to of been. RIGHT? How do you justify the valley of the dragonbuttes?
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Jan 19, 2014 08:16
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I'd say the Souls games are closer in spirit to Ninja Gaiden than DMC or Bayonetta, where difficulty alone is the real focus, you've got a block button, and there's no ancillary Style system to consider. That said, the weight of combat is completely different, and where Jeff gave NGB a 9.4 I doubt he'll ever finish a Souls game.
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Jan 19, 2014 08:30
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The difficulty in the Souls games feels more to me like untying a knot. When you're able to progress, you know what you need to do, but you need to be patient and meticulous and not get frustrated. Games like bayonetta and DMC are more about memorising technique and understanding the fighting mechanisms. The Kings Field games are about circlestrafing, figuring out where the gently caress you need to go and fighting the controls.
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Jan 19, 2014 08:32
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Vinny, you got no place judging these French colonists and their lack of the letter "h" what with you and "faux-ward" 
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Jan 19, 2014 08:37
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I can't think of any bullshit in Demon's Souls, nearly everything in that game was incredibly well designed. Maybe the False King's attack that steals a soul level? Of course, the player character can get that spell as well. Dark Souls had a few poorly designed areas but it was never unfair. Lost Izalith and a fair amount of the Duke's Archives are hot garbage, for example. A lot of people seem to go at those games as though they're an action game, die, and then blame the game for it. I don't get that mindset. The games really aren't as hard as they're given credit for. Also don't buy Monster Hunter looking for an experience in any way like Dark Souls, c'mon. That game's closer to Dragon's Dogma.
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Jan 19, 2014 08:40
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I don't know if Demon's Souls is a better game, but it definitely felt more polished and well produced. I'm guessing it was because Sony was funding it and they probably had a more lenient development cycle. Dark Souls 2 is suppose to have a crazy budget though, which is hilarious. And if Demon's Souls 2 actually exists with Sony's financial backing then man what a crazy loving world. edit: playing AC4: Black Flag, I'm confused how Giantbomb can hate tailing missions in GTA yet like this game. IT FEELS LIKE EVERY MISSION IS A TAILING MISSION. Automata 10 Pack fucked around with this message at 08:49 on Jan 19, 2014 |
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Jan 19, 2014 08:44
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Mutation posted:I don't know if Demon's Souls is a better game, but it definitely felt more polished and well produced. I'm guessing it was because Sony was funding it and they probably had a more lenient development cycle. You can't give the GTA tailing missions 1 star when you finish them.
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Jan 19, 2014 08:53
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If they do make demons souls 2 how would they differentiate it from dark souls? vv Yeah no poo poo they take place in different settings, I meant gameplay wise vv Dred Cosmonaut fucked around with this message at 09:14 on Jan 19, 2014 |
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Jan 19, 2014 09:10
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The setting is different. I assume Dark Souls 2 takes place in the same world as Dark Souls, so Demon's Souls 2 would take place in the world of Demon's Souls. Alternatively you could just think of it as Demon's Souls 4 and still be completely accurate.
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Jan 19, 2014 09:12
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Dred Cosmonaut posted:If they do make demons souls 2 how would they differentiate it from dark souls? Better Level Design, worse lore, more 1 on 1 boss fights with dudes your size and with roughly your abilities (AKA The Dante V Vergil slam jams).
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Jan 19, 2014 09:14
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Demon's Souls 2 could bring back the "Hub world with linear levels" style and reintroduce all the crazy loving systems while introducing more new ones. Or maybe it would be yet another reinterpretation of the mechanics, like Dark Souls was to Demon's Souls. Automata 10 Pack fucked around with this message at 09:26 on Jan 19, 2014 |
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Jan 19, 2014 09:15
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Mutation posted:Demon's Souls 2 could bring back the Hub world style of levels and reintroduce all the crazy loving systems while introducing more. And with the Hub bring back NPC's we get to see do things and have explicit character arcs! Like some of the NPC's in Dark Souls are cool but you don't see enough of them to be anything other than minor nice background details to the overall experience.
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Jan 19, 2014 09:19
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I really hope DS2 doesn't exist at all since that would never get a PC version.
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Jan 19, 2014 09:19
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Andrast posted:I really hope DS2 doesn't exist at all since that would never get a PC version. 
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Jan 19, 2014 09:25
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Andrast posted:I really hope DS2 doesn't exist at all since that would never get a PC version. Alternatively, you could just get a Playstation and not hope for an entire section of people to not get a potentially good game. 
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Jan 19, 2014 09:38
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JuHoZ posted:I wonder what was the catalyst of bringing Dark Souls "back" in the mind of the common gamer. At least for me it was Vinnys streams. Before his streams I dabbled in DS for about an hour or so before I realized that my patience wasn't enough for this game. Now playing it again and just not giving up every time you lose like 3000 souls, it seems fun. I platinumed Demon Souls and even I thought Dark Souls was a bit too harsh when I started. I got stuck on a boss then ignored it for like, 3-4 months before jumping back in and getting hundreds of hours on it. You just forget what it's like to start from 0 again, by the end of Demon/Dark Souls you've mastered the bosses, the equipment, everything is just easier and starting over without that knowledge is such a kick in the balls. I imagine the same thing will happen in Dark Souls 2 to all the people trying to recreate their perfect DS1 builds.
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Jan 19, 2014 09:49
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Manatee Cannon posted:Alternatively, you could just get a Playstation and not hope for an entire section of people to not get a potentially good game. FROM software is going to make similar games anyway, they just wouldn't be platform exclusive. Demon's Souls 2 would just take away development time from games I could actually play.
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Jan 19, 2014 10:10
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Can't we all just agree that dark souls is pretty cool?
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Jan 19, 2014 10:58
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uPen posted:Can't we all just agree that dark souls is pretty cool? "Plays better than Jeff Green" 
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Jan 19, 2014 11:07
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Hashy posted:I never had a problem with my self-edited Batman AC save after probably 30 hours, Batman AA seemed to convert fine and 2K themselves resolved Bioshock. All of them were really minor compatability issues because there's nothing that special about GFWL save games. It's crazy that people are getting angry but I'd love to know where you're coming from with this. Steam forums had a number of people on day one who swapped their saves over for Batman/Bioshock ( including me with City ), and they worked fine upfront, but a few hours later recorrupted. That might have been fixed with updated versions of that patcher, but many people didn't even bother updating when it changed over. How many Dark Souls players are going to understand why their save games are suddenly gone, and know there is a program that could fix it on the Steam forums. And if that bug is still in place, it's a bigger issue for Dark Souls ( a game without apparent end entirely built around personal skill/accomplishment ) then AA/Bioshock ( which are 7-14 hour linear romps. ). Imagine how "fun" it'd be to be told that you can fix your Dark Souls saves, go hog wild, update them, play for another few hours and get past O&S, then come back to a corrupted save that can't be fixed. It'd turn people off the game entirely.
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Jan 19, 2014 14:58
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