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Astro Nut posted:And I will say again, I really wish there was a strategy game for the Wii U that utilised the gamepad in place of the mouse setup. Its the closest you can get without just getting a mouse and keyboard, and given the struggle of getting RTS and other such games onto consoles and making them good, it could be a really interesting experiment.
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Jan 19, 2014 16:42
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icantfindaname posted:Did their ad agency have input on the WiiU's design and name and stuff or do they just make the TV commercials? Having worked on global accounts if the head office wants to clamp down on creative to throw their weight around they absolutely can and often do over the pettiest of bullshit. In addition, if the product is as unfocused and unfinished as it appears to consumers its likely the agency was given very limited resources to work with and poor direction it had to adhere to. Alternately, I've seen great ideas shot down because a CFO says they have final say and they don't like it even after the marketing team has approved the spot. Tl;dr there are tons of reasons why a creative agency's direction might become noticeably more terrible that has little to do with their internals.
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Jan 19, 2014 17:03
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Astro Nut posted:Aye, with the gamepad, I've previously outlined how its got really a nice bunch of creature comforts, but no real games that really justify its existence as a pure controller. With the wiimote, literally any game that used motion controls could not be experienced the same without it - its physically too different. So whether it worked for you or your arm spazzed out all over the place, marketing could still lure you in with the sense that you controlled the game personally. Nintendland and I guess Wii Party U are the only games that make the game pad essential to playing the game. They are a ton of fun, but unfortunately I think that's where the innovation ends in terms of game pad creativity.
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Jan 19, 2014 17:15
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Astro Nut posted:And I will say again, I really wish there was a strategy game for the Wii U that utilised the gamepad in place of the mouse setup. Its the closest you can get without just getting a mouse and keyboard, and given the struggle of getting RTS and other such games onto consoles and making them good, it could be a really interesting experiment. Pikmin 3?
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Jan 19, 2014 17:16
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Astro7x posted:Nintendland and I guess Wii Party U are the only games that make the game pad essential to playing the game. They are a ton of fun, but unfortunately I think that's where the innovation ends in terms of game pad creativity. It's a complete luxury.
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Jan 19, 2014 17:21
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I said come in! posted:If the Wii U didn't have the tablet controller, the system might have actually gotten a lot of 3rd party games that the ps3 and 360 got. I remember reading that a lot of developers ignored the Wii U for their ports because they didn't have the time or resources to make their games work on the tablet controller. What? No. This would also cause the GameCube problem of being like a third wheel, only this time with horrible online support and a tiny userbase. Besides, what's stopping developers from doing what they've done on the DS and just sticking some menu or map on the touch screen and calling it a day? I absolutely guarantee you it's the horribly small customer base that's deterring developers, not the Gamepad.
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Jan 19, 2014 17:35
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Suspicious Dish posted:Pikmin 3? Its an RTS on the console, yes, but from what I understand it doesn't really use the gamepad in place of a mouse set up - indeed, the most precise setup I've heard of is using the wiimote and nunchuk as a manual pointer and selection control whilst the gamepad is used for a map.
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Jan 19, 2014 17:40
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Astro7x posted:More generic quotes about possible change New business structure, eh? "From now on, all NES games in the digital marketplace will start at $10." I guess if anybody can dig themselves out of a hole it's Nintendo, but I'm skeptical. It's like watching the once mighty Blackberry trying to go toe to toe with iOS and Android.
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Jan 19, 2014 17:47
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Almost Smart posted:I guess if anybody can dig themselves out of a hole it's Nintendo, but I'm skeptical. It's like watching the once mighty Blackberry trying to go toe to toe with iOS and Android. Blackberry should have convinced Nintendo to let them make a Blackberry DS.
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Jan 19, 2014 17:49
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ohnoitschris posted:I absolutely guarantee you it's the horribly small customer base that's deterring developers, not the Gamepad. Removing the GamePad is still unlikely, but it feels like a move that drastic is what they'll need to recover the Wii U from a distant and irrelevant 3rd place to something a little less embarassing. GamePad out, new SDK at $199 with SM3DW bundled and a whole dumptruck of money on games and marketing. Probably some 3rd party ports for Christmas, then some more varied games after that. Either that or accept defeat, tread water until a new console is viable and maybe not gently caress up so comprehensively this time. Any decision in the middle will be too compromised to make a difference. On the other hand maybe Smash and MK8 will be enough without any other changes, I really don't know how well they'll sell. It does feel a little like the longer we go without a Smash game the more popular it's purported (on the Internet) to be, but how much that actually translates to units sold is a tough question. It still feels weird to talk about how badly Nintendo are doing when the weekly sales charts in Japan are just dominated by the 3DS, there's barely any competition there at all. Assuming there's still no meaningful amount of money on digital sales there still.
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Jan 19, 2014 18:09
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Astro Nut posted:And I will say again, I really wish there was a strategy game for the Wii U that utilised the gamepad in place of the mouse setup. Its the closest you can get without just getting a mouse and keyboard, and given the struggle of getting RTS and other such games onto consoles and making them good, it could be a really interesting experiment.
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Jan 19, 2014 18:17
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Edmund Honda posted:It still feels weird to talk about how badly Nintendo are doing when the weekly sales charts in Japan are just dominated by the 3DS, there's barely any competition there at all. Assuming there's still no meaningful amount of money on digital sales there still. When you're a public company, it doesn't matter how well you're doing now. Only how well you're doing based on what you did previously. 3DS isn't doing better than the DS so the media and public perception is its a failure. Just look at how many articles discuss how "it's selling but not as much as they thought!" Of course, the media is doing this so they can push the smartphone agenda.
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Jan 19, 2014 18:18
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Paper Jam Dipper posted:When you're a public company, it doesn't matter how well you're doing now. Only how well you're doing based on what you did previously. 3DS isn't doing better than the DS so the media and public perception is its a failure. Just look at how many articles discuss how "it's selling but not as much as they thought!" Of course, the media is doing this so they can push the smartphone agenda. 3DS is doing great in Japan. Like, it just had one of the best years of hardware sales of all time there (only it and the DS have ever broken 5 million units in a year afaik). But hardware and software sales are way down from the DS everywhere else and it's looking to be flat year over year which is not what you want at this point in its life. It's still doing well and it's definitely not a failure, but the fact that it's tracking more in line with the PSP than the DS should be worrying for them.
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Jan 19, 2014 18:22
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Yes drat those cell phones for being everywhere and having games.Edmund Honda posted:
They don't really have a dumptruck. They have a thimble with dollars that they can use either to please the 3rd party developers they've spent the last decade screwing or use it as a bank error in their favor. As for Smash and MK8 they have to be huge system sellers or they're not gonna make a dent. Even at 100% retention at what 2-something million (you know magic fairy land) it's not at all enough.
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Jan 19, 2014 18:23
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Paper Jam Dipper posted:When you're a public company, it doesn't matter how well you're doing now. Only how well you're doing based on what you did previously. 3DS isn't doing better than the DS so the media and public perception is its a failure. Just look at how many articles discuss how "it's selling but not as much as they thought!" Of course, the media is doing this so they can push the smartphone agenda.  Do you realize how paranoid that makes you sound? 
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Jan 19, 2014 18:24
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10 months ago people were saying the same thing if an article was published saying that the Wii U was in trouble. Gaming journalists and their anti Nintendo biases.
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Jan 19, 2014 18:30
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Atomicated posted:10 months ago people were saying the same thing if an article was published saying that the Wii U was in trouble. Gaming journalists and their anti Nintendo biases. It's not really anti Nintendo bias when Nintendo comes out and admits they are in trouble.
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Jan 19, 2014 18:55
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Nintendo forgot about its warchest when they said they were in trouble. If only they had a Nintendo fanboy to remind them of their warchest.
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Jan 19, 2014 18:57
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Quest For Glory II posted:That's why I think it's odd that people say "well you can't remove the Gamepad, look at how integral it is!!" I mean, is it?? You can patch the OS to be controller focused and only a couple of games would be affected. And Nintendoland is not even available in the eShop anymore, Nintendo abandoned support of it. We've gone over this before, I think you totally underestimate that amount of work that is involved. I still think from a technical standpoint every game would need to be patched in one way or another. It's a daunting task that asks developers to sink money into an effort that might never pay off. I know the situation has changed now, but it seems very un-Nintendo like to simply say "hey, some of these games may or may not work properly on your new cheap Wii U system without a game pad". Out of the 8 Wii U games I own -3 would be completely unplayable -2 would be missing substantial portions of the game without a game pad. -2 would be missing minor features -1 would be completely fine simply forcing you to use just the Pro Controller with a simple patch. I'd say only two of those games absolutely require the game pad though and would be unable to be played with just a Pro Controller. The others wouldn't fundamentally change the game that much if they were reworked to use a Pro Controller. I'm just saying that I don't think that eliminating Game Pad support is at just the OS level if they needed to patch NSMBU to support the Pro Controller.
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Jan 19, 2014 18:59
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Paper Jam Dipper posted:When you're a public company, it doesn't matter how well you're doing now. Only how well you're doing based on what you did previously. 3DS isn't doing better than the DS so the media and public perception is its a failure. Just look at how many articles discuss how "it's selling but not as much as they thought!" Of course, the media is doing this so they can push the smartphone agenda. So it's not so much about a comparison with the past, I think, but more that it's getting harder and harder to see how Nintendo's current strategy is going to be viable into the future. Thus, they're in trouble and need to make sweeping changes. waffle fucked around with this message at 19:09 on Jan 19, 2014 |
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Jan 19, 2014 19:01
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After last week's news, I was wondering when Paper Jam Dipper would check in to tell us about the media conspiracy against Nintendo.
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Jan 19, 2014 19:52
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Astro7x posted:We've gone over this before, I think you totally underestimate that amount of work that is involved. I still think from a technical standpoint every game would need to be patched in one way or another. It's a daunting task that asks developers to sink money into an effort that might never pay off. I know the situation has changed now, but it seems very un-Nintendo like to simply say "hey, some of these games may or may not work properly on your new cheap Wii U system without a game pad". And if Nintendo still wants to sell the Gamepad separately they can.
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Jan 19, 2014 19:59
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Almost Smart posted:New business structure, eh? This as probably has to do with Iwata having been critical of mobile game pricing structure in the past (most notably at GDC). He believed that the 'race to the bottom' pricing in app stores would eat away at the margins of traditional $35+ priced games. It turns out he is wrong as mobile gaming has supported a variety of different pricing models. While margins are lower, the size of the userbase and the opportunity to target whale spenders can make up lost revenue. Now, Nintendo is experimenting with DLC (Fire Emblem/Pikmin) and F2P games (Darumeshi Sports Store/Steel Diver: Sub Wars). The thing about Nintendo is that they have historically made their money off selling profitable hardware and high margin first-party games. What has changed is that they heavily expanded the company and tried out loss leader hardware to appease third-parties. With their sales contracting, the burn rate is higher than ever. The cost of operations is what makes dedicated consoles so difficult to produce. For instance, Sony Computer Entertainment didn't make all that much money from the PS1 and PS2 relative to what they were spending on their consoles. This is because of their massive overhead and heavy R&D spending. They lost an astronomically large sum of money just producing and supporting the PS3. Their high burn rate ate away most of their revenue. It's part of the reason why Microsoft, Sony, and Nintendo face some degree of pressure from shareholders to leave dedicated gaming consoles and invest more in mobile platforms. Even if you have a successful console with a diverse line up, it takes a large capital to support it and woo major third-party developers. The opportunity cost of that is not at all insignificant. Nintendo's shareholders want the company to be a high growth mobile company like GREE. However, these two companies have different company structures and core competencies. EA is similar to Nintendo in that they are a powerful company with a stable of high selling properties. However, EA has had a difficult time competing in mobile. They initially tried to spam out games that were optimized to come out first in search engines. instead, they were regularly outperformed by upstart developers with low game counts. They tried to leverage their acquisition of PopCap but this buyout has led to a string of layoffs and dead projects due to differences in company culture. It's possible Nintendo could be made into a mobile company but it will probably be a hatchet job with a lot of casualties.
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Jan 19, 2014 22:54
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Sunning posted:This as probably has to do with Iwata having been critical of mobile game pricing structure in the past (most notably at GDC). He believed that the 'race to the bottom' pricing in app stores would eat away at the margins of traditional $35+ priced games. It turns out he is wrong as mobile gaming has supported a variety of different pricing models. I'm not as familiar with this as I should be, so what are these different pricing models? I didn't think the mobile game market was too profitable, outside of a few big winners (Rovio, Zynga, SpryFox)
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Jan 19, 2014 22:57
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Suspicious Dish posted:I'm not as familiar with this as I should be, so what are these different pricing models? I didn't think the mobile game market was too profitable, outside of a few big winners (Rovio, Zynga, SpryFox) Iwata was concerned whether or not mobile aggressive pricing would devalue traditionally priced games. Many mobile games are free to play but make their revenue off ads or in-app purchases. Some games are ludicrous price scaling but make money off big whale spenders. However, several companies have succeeded with paid apps on mobile platforms. For example, Square-Enix has been successful with paid apps, especially in Japan. Take2 said XCOM for the iOS was a success at a premium price. In their recent reports, Take2 plans on porting more games to and creating new games ground up for mobile platforms. We also have success stories from smaller developers. A small Finnish developer called Cornfox and Bros. made a Zelda clone called Oceanhorn and priced it at $8.99. It made its development costs in under a week. While success isn't guaranteed, the top paid app sales charts for mobile platforms are made from a variety of big publishers, small developers working with a publisher (the case for Oceanhorn), and independent startups.
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Jan 19, 2014 23:40
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The next Dreamcast, you say? I was hoping it could at least be the next PS3, but nearly every revelation points against even the remote possibility of being like Sony's 7th gen phoenix. At worst it'll end up being their 32X, not their Saturn; after all, Nintendo have much bigger legs than the Game Gear and Nomad to prop them up. This better not lead to the end of the Nintendo console, though, because that would suck. Sure, Nintendo IPs on your system of choice might sound good on paper, but you know that Dual Shock you'd be playing them with? You have Nintendo to thank for it. They've been almost exclusively the sole innovator in console peripheral technology since they came out of the goddamn video game crash with Gunpei Yokoi's little rectangle with the plus sign on the left and the multiple circles on the right that's become synonymous with videogaming as the public knows it. And even when another company does come up with a controller idea, Nintendo's the one who manages to make it actually work (compare the pile of poo poo that was the Atari 5200's analog stick to the N64's, although the wireless 2600 sticks weren't bad from what I hear). Finally, there is no denying that without the Wiimote, the Move and Kinect would not exist. Period. I'm sure some people would be just fine with enhanced, dual analog+ SNES controllers until the sun explodes. But you can just as easily say the same about those who were stick with Atari's rubbery 1-button joystick and all the bizarre failures that Matell, Caleco, and even Atari themselves tried. If there's one thing the industry doesn't need, it's the stagnation that's sure to happen if Nintendo leaves the console hardware business.
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Jan 20, 2014 04:05
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That's a goofy thing to say when the analog stick is the last thing they came up with to last, and I really doubt that's something that wouldn't exist without Nintendo. Their most recent big "innovations" are motion controls, which were just a fad, and second screens, which is only a big thing for Nintendo.
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Jan 20, 2014 04:16
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Kuuenbu posted:it's the stagnation that's sure to happen if Nintendo leaves the console hardware business. People said that about Sega leaving the industry. If anything the industry today is bigger than it ever was when Nintendo and Sega were at their peak. We have a surprising variety of games across all the platforms that are available. Some of the most creative developers, large, small, or independent have come out of the woodwork to provide some really amazing experiences across the board. I'd feel bad if Nintendo somehow left the console business, but pretending that innovation would die with them is remarkably fanboyish.
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Jan 20, 2014 04:18
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Sunning posted:Iwata was concerned whether or not mobile aggressive pricing would devalue traditionally priced games. Many mobile games are free to play but make their revenue off ads or in-app purchases. Some games are ludicrous price scaling but make money off big whale spenders. However, several companies have succeeded with paid apps on mobile platforms. I don't have any opinion myself, I just want to say thanks for this! This is really helpful and useful information, and I'm glad that you're around to give such excellently research posts. SatansBestBuddy posted:Please do. I wanna see what kinda cool stuff Nintendo's doing at the hardware level. Like, they're always praised for their games, but mostly slandered for their consoles, often by the same group of people who have no idea the work that went into both. Hm, maybe I'll just post one or two stories in here about the Gamecube and Wii's development, and the clever tricks they pulled off and the stupid bugs they left in the system that got it hacked.
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Jan 20, 2014 04:21
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fivegears4reverse posted:People said that about Sega leaving the industry. Maybe not, but knowing theres less fun games in the world would be heartbreaking.
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Jan 20, 2014 04:25
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Pixeltendo posted:Maybe not, but knowing theres less fun games in the world would be heartbreaking. The developers aren't all going to retire if something happens to Nintendo. They might not make Mario Kart 9 but they'll still be in the industry. Hell maybe some of them will start small studios and work on a dream project they've always wanted to do.
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Jan 20, 2014 04:29
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Motto posted:That's a goofy thing to say when the analog stick is the last thing they came up with to last, and I really doubt that's something that wouldn't exist without Nintendo. Their most recent big "innovations" are motion controls, which were just a fad, and second screens, which is only a big thing for Nintendo. A fad which Microsoft seems to keep chasing (why else would the Kinect be a Bone bundle?), and doesn't Sony have something touchscreen-inspired in the DualShock 4? People keep playing "follow the leader" with Nintendo whether it's warranted or not. Besides, the WiiU wouldn't be Nintendo's first failure; anyone familiar with the Virtual Boy can vouch for that. Thought it is funny how a failed attempt could be followed by a successful attempt just a decade and a half later...
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Jan 20, 2014 04:35
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Pixeltendo posted:Maybe not, but knowing theres less fun games in the world would be heartbreaking. Nintendo's top execs might talk a big game, some fanboys might screech about how Nintendo would rather take their franchises to the grave rather than see them on other systems, but again, people said the same poo poo about Sega, and now they are on every platform that they're willing to work on. Kuuenbu posted:A fad which Microsoft seems to keep chasing (why else would the Kinect be a Bone bundle?), and doesn't Sony have something touchscreen-inspired in the DualShock 4? People keep playing "follow the leader" with Nintendo whether it's warranted or not. I dunno, the N64 was a failure, as far as marketshare is concerned it was trounced handily by the PSOne. The Gamecube was a colossal failure and basically set Nintendo on the path to where it is today. What the Kinect (mostly fails) to do is different from what the Wiimote (mostly) failed to do, as far as gameplay enhancement is concerned. The touchpad on the PS4 controller isn't necessarily the same thing as the Gamepad, you should really be looking more at the Vita's PS4 connectivity than anything else, something that's entirely optional (and more of a desperate attempt to save a platform that is failing just as hard as the Wii U is). fivegears4reverse fucked around with this message at 04:46 on Jan 20, 2014 |
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Jan 20, 2014 04:38
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While Nintendo has led a lot of innovations, I wouldn't say it's impossible for innovations to keep happening with Nintendo out of the picture. Look at the dual shock. No one had dual analogue sticks before then, but then Sony introduced it, and now everyone does. The thought that no other company has the ability to innovate sounds a little ridiculous to me. If anything, Nintendo going out of the console business would encourage Sony and Microsoft to get cracking on the next big thing.
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Jan 20, 2014 04:44
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fivegears4reverse posted:The touchpad on the PS4 controller isn't necessarily the same thing as the Gamepad, you should really be looking more at the Vita's PS4 connectivity than anything else, something that's entirely optional (and more of a desperate attempt to save a platform that is failing just as hard as the Wii U is). Even the Vita's PS4 connectivity is more an extension of the Remote Play concept that they had with the PSP (and later Vita) and PS3 than stealing from the Wii U.
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Jan 20, 2014 04:48
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fivegears4reverse posted:I dunno, the N64 was a failure, as far as marketshare is concerned it was trounced handily by the PSOne. Didn't stop Sony from looking at it and saying "hey, I want that!" and then adding one to their controller, along with another one for good measure (just like they did with the SNES's shoulder buttons). The N64 may not have had the sales, but we might never have had the Dual Shock without it. Bemoan their commercial success all you want, the industry need Nintendo's ideas more than you seem to think they do. (I'll totally give them credit for the palm handle design, though, unless Microsoft beat them to that with their Sidewinder line.) Butt Ghost posted:While Nintendo has led a lot of innovations, I wouldn't say it's impossible for innovations to keep happening with Nintendo out of the picture. Look at the dual shock. No one had dual analogue sticks before then, but then Sony introduced it, and now everyone does. The thought that no other company has the ability to innovate sounds a little ridiculous to me. If anything, Nintendo going out of the console business would encourage Sony and Microsoft to get cracking on the next big thing. Oh I'm certainly not going to discount the impact dual analog controls (even though it did lead to bringing first person shooters to consoles and bottlenecking them from a design perspective). Still, the implementation of an analog stick is a greater leap than adding another one. The philosophy of Sony and Microsoft has basically been "More of something > a new something". Hell, there's a reason Sony's consoles are all the same name with a sequel number attached. Kuuenbu fucked around with this message at 05:27 on Jan 20, 2014 |
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Jan 20, 2014 05:08
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fivegears4reverse posted:What the Kinect (mostly fails) to do is different from what the Wiimote (mostly) failed to do, as far as gameplay enhancement is concerned. The touchpad on the PS4 controller isn't necessarily the same thing as the Gamepad, you should really be looking more at the Vita's PS4 connectivity than anything else, something that's entirely optional (and more of a desperate attempt to save a platform that is failing just as hard as the Wii U is). Suggesting the WiiU is only failing as bad as the Vita is remarkably generous to the WiiU.
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Jan 20, 2014 05:13
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The Vita is failing an order of magnitude harder than the Wii U.
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Jan 20, 2014 05:15
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Crowbear posted:The Vita is failing an order of magnitude harder than the Wii U. Every sales number I've seen recently suggests the WiiU is doing worse than the Vita. Granted, most of that's from Japan and their market is very different, but even when people post numbers from the west it tends to suggest the WiiU's doing worse. Am I missing something here?
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Jan 20, 2014 05:18
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King of Solomon posted:Every sales number I've seen recently suggests the WiiU is doing worse than the Vita. Granted, most of that's from Japan and their market is very different, but even when people post numbers from the west it tends to suggest the WiiU's doing worse. No you're not, he's wrong.
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Jan 20, 2014 05:22
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