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MaximumBob posted:You know, thinking a little more about it, I think he probably could have just written the article and said "I found that prior to 2003 she was living as another name, working as an auto mechanic" and left off that she wasn't living as a woman. Yep, that would be better than my hypothetical.
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Jan 20, 2014 00:58
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I think one of the things that is not getting enough attention with regards to this story is that the reporter in question didn't just out her in his article, or just wrote insensitive things about her: the guy actually goes around outing her to people she knew just to get reaction quotes (and is completely surprised when some didn't care). That makes it impossible to claim it was just a case of the journalist not thinking about the repercussions or just "following the story." Even if the author felt that disclosing her trans status was integral to the story (which it is not, but lots of people seem to be saying this in his defense), outing her to people she knew and to estranged family members just to get reaction quotes is downright cruel. And, in my mind, also leads me to believe that they knew exactly what sort of reaction they would get, but wanted the click bait anyways.
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Jan 20, 2014 06:14
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I think it's a tough spot to be in for a writer. Showing that she is a con-artist is part of the story. And you can't prove the con-artist part without it outing her. Definitely could have been handled better but is he supposed to write that she's a fraud but isn't allowed to tell everyone why? Wouldn't that be pretty lovely journalism on his part too? Also the Gary McCord stuff should have been delved into much deeper. Obviously he either made that poo poo up about her or she really pulled a fast one on him.
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Jan 20, 2014 06:44
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Niwrad posted:I think it's a tough spot to be in for a writer. Showing that she is a con-artist is part of the story. And you can't prove the con-artist part without it outing her. Definitely could have been handled better but is he supposed to write that she's a fraud but isn't allowed to tell everyone why? Wouldn't that be pretty lovely journalism on his part too? I know being an annoying devil's advocate is like your thing, but this is ridiculous for reasons people have already covered earlier in the thread.
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Jan 20, 2014 06:53
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MourningView posted:I know being an annoying devil's advocate is like your thing, but this is ridiculous for reasons people have already covered earlier in the thread. What are those reasons? There's 20 different responses in this thread on how he should have handled it. If he leaves that part out, he is writing an article making a serious accusation against a business without providing evidence. And raising those questions in an open-ended manner (as some have suggested) likely leads to outing her anyways. Someone else would inevitably do the digging to find out what he left out. I just don't see any way of disclosing she is a fraud without it leading to her being outed down the road. That's why I think it's difficult for the writer. Personally I would have passed on the piece if I was him. It's something you can't do properly without causing harm to her in a matter that shouldn't cause her harm.
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Jan 20, 2014 07:28
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Niwrad posted:What are those reasons? There's 20 different responses in this thread on how he should have handled it. In the context of the article about a "revolutionary" putter, such a thing really wouldn't have warranted anything beyond a passing mention, with that mention relating to the research into Dr. Z's career that turned up falsified claims.
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Jan 20, 2014 08:03
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Crazy Ted posted:Sooner or later, the author may have had to mention Dr. V's past existence as a man in some way since in order to fully investigate what turns out to be dubious claims like you're going to have to investigate the person's past both as a man and as a woman since the person will have used different names. I agree. The way he presented it was sophomoric and unnecessary. But strictly in terms of outing, I don't think it matters how he words it. So in that regard, it's an odd position for a writer to be in. If he absolutely needs to write the article, that information is going to come out (through him or someone else). The blame should be more with the editor who let the story run. A story about a new putter built by a physics guru who developed Stealth Bombers is fascinating stuff. What he was left with was not. Definitely not a story of the magnitude to risk outing someone. It's poo poo that you'd find on Gawker, it shouldn't be on Grantland.
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Jan 20, 2014 11:34
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Here's an interesting take on the whole thing: http://www.slate.com/articles/life/culturebox/2014/01/essay_anne_vanderbilt_dr_v_s_magical_putter_grantland_s_expos_of_a_trans.html and apparently Bill Simmons is supposed to address it in a column sometime this week
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Jan 20, 2014 14:13
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sportsgenius86 posted:Here's an interesting take on the whole thing: http://www.slate.com/articles/life/culturebox/2014/01/essay_anne_vanderbilt_dr_v_s_magical_putter_grantland_s_expos_of_a_trans.html quote:If you haven’t read Hannan’s story yet, you should—I’ll be here when you’re done. Please stop doing this, online writers. It stopped being clever 10 years ago.
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Jan 20, 2014 14:41
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sportsgenius86 posted:and apparently Bill Simmons is supposed to address it in a column sometime this week i can't wait for all the crying game references! it's pretty weird that no one from grantland's roster has commented yet
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Jan 20, 2014 16:32
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the talent deficit posted:i can't wait for all the crying game references! They're probably waiting from word from upstairs before they say anything. Discretion is the better part of employment.
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Jan 20, 2014 16:34
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the talent deficit posted:it's pretty weird that no one from grantland's roster has commented yet If I was a writer working there, I'd just ignore it too. Simmons is really the only high-profile guy on the editorial team, though it's funny that Rafe Bartholomew (the story's editor) and Dan Fierman (editorial director) haven't tweeted in three days.
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Jan 20, 2014 16:41
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morestuff posted:If I was a writer working there, I'd just ignore it too. Simmons is really the only high-profile guy on the editorial team, though it's funny that Rafe Bartholomew (the story's editor) and Dan Fierman (editorial director) haven't tweeted in three days. Rafe Bartholomew edited that? That's unfortunate, I really like that guy's writing and it's shocking he could be so tone deaf towards a community.
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Jan 20, 2014 16:56
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I follow a lot of the Grantland writers on twitter and I honestly love the site. I'm definitely more involved in the culture side of things than the triangle side but I love Zach Lowe and Bill Barnwell's columns. I know a lot of the culture writers (Yoshida, Lambert, and co) are rather outspoken on gender and what not. It'll be interesting if they'll talk about it on their own podcasts. Given that this is exactly the type of thing that they usually comment on in their own columns/podcasts. This is a mark against Grantland as a whole but I don't think its a death blow. Nor will I stop going to the website as long as this is properly redressed.
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Jan 20, 2014 17:19
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Oh Christ, don't let Simmons speak for the site, that's going to make it worse.
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Jan 20, 2014 17:46
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MourningView posted:Oh Christ, don't let Simmons speak for the site, that's going to make it worse. they don't really have anyone on the editorial side who can really address this but simmons has some fantastic writers who may be a little more sensitive to the kinds of concerns this piece raises. hopefully he makes use of them
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Jan 20, 2014 18:30
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the talent deficit posted:grantland.com maybe just killed someone How does exposing a con artist make Grantland responsible? Everything that Dr. V said to him was classic con artist manipulative bullshit and when she couldn't talk her way out of it she chose to kill herself rather than face potential jail time for the fraud.
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Jan 20, 2014 18:51
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St1cky posted:How does exposing a con artist make Grantland responsible? Everything that Dr. V said to him was classic con artist manipulative bullshit and when she couldn't talk her way out of it she chose to kill herself rather than face potential jail time for the fraud. Speaking as a journalist: hahahaha gently caress you
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Jan 20, 2014 18:53
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This can't be the first time an expose has outed someone as transgender but it's easily the most high-profile. I have no idea what to think of this story but I bet it's going to set some kind of precedent from editors in the future.
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Jan 20, 2014 19:03
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St1cky posted:How does exposing a con artist make Grantland responsible? Everything that Dr. V said to him was classic con artist manipulative bullshit and when she couldn't talk her way out of it she chose to kill herself rather than face potential jail time for the fraud. Cool, just ignore everything that has been said in the last page or so. For the record, Dr. V wouldn't have faced jail time for her "con." At most she would be liable in civil court to her investors. Also, for those saying that he had to report on the transgender issue because of the story, someone went through the story and edited it to show how it could still be a compelling story without the "did you know Dr. V was a man? how you feel about that?" aspect of it: http://si.arrr.net/device/2014/01/18/dr-v-an-edit-after-the-fact/ joepinetree fucked around with this message at 19:14 on Jan 20, 2014 |
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Jan 20, 2014 19:11
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Crion posted:Speaking as a journalist: hahahaha gently caress you Just read the paragraph about the claims Dr. V made. Designed bluetooth, was a Vanderbilt, friend of the Hiltons, and would immediately start bullying people for disagreeing with her. That's the kind of sociopath stuff con artists pull and none of it's true. quote:Kinney had heard his own share of incredible claims. Dr. V had told him that she was a $1,000-an-hour consultant. She said she was one of the original designers of Bluetooth technology. She even suggested that her status as a Vanderbilt provided access to some exclusive company who could help Yar’s business. Kinney said Dr. V told him she was good friends with the Hilton family, and that the relationship would pay off in the form of putters sold at their hotels. Kinney also recalled a trip he had taken to Arizona where, in Dr. V’s house, she had shown him a computer that she said mirrored the one in Phoenix’s airport traffic control tower.
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Jan 20, 2014 19:14
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You are completely and totally missing what people are upset about. Hint: Being transgender is not part of being a con-man.
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Jan 20, 2014 19:14
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It wouldn't have been an issue if there weren't outrageous claims of having degrees from Penn and MIT, along with work on bluetooth and the stealth bomber. Changing a persons gender and name doesn't change everything else about their past. If "Dr" V. hadn't been making any of those claims none of that would be relevant. Edit: I am focused mostly on the con artist part because I've seen how they work and how they destroy peoples lives. Con artists are worthless, lazy, and manipulative assholes that would tell you anything you wanted to hear to get your $5 out of your pocket. I don't think transgendered people that are trying to live their lives should be outed, but in this case it's unavoidable and entirely "Dr" V's fault. St1cky fucked around with this message at 19:27 on Jan 20, 2014 |
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Jan 20, 2014 19:20
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The wooshes keep wooshing.
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Jan 20, 2014 19:27
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You can mention the other stuff without outing the person, and not wanting to out yourself as transgendered is not a con.
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Jan 20, 2014 19:28
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Sadly, even if the writer had promised her he wouldn't bring up the trans angle, which he should have done the minute he discovered it, the story might have ended the exact same way. She was going to be exposed as a con-woman even if her gender had never been brought up.
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Jan 20, 2014 19:36
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Someone re-wrote the article removing all gender references, which I feel is worthwhile: http://si.arrr.net/device/2014/01/18/dr-v-an-edit-after-the-fact/
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Jan 20, 2014 19:47
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MourningView posted:You can mention the other stuff without outing the person, and not wanting to out yourself as transgendered is not a con. I disagree with the first part, but I agree with the second. This is a con-artist who happens to be transgendered. In this case you have to expose everything so there isn't any room to explain stuff away. The more that's exposed the better. And she would've ended up outing herself if she thought it'd benefit her anyways. I know it sounds callous, but this is a person that compulsively uses people as a means to an end.
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Jan 20, 2014 19:49
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St1cky posted:I disagree with the first part, but I agree with the second. This is a con-artist who happens to be transgendered. In this case you have to expose everything so there isn't any room to explain stuff away. The more that's exposed the better. And she would've ended up outing herself if she thought it'd benefit her anyways. I know it sounds callous, but this is a person that compulsively uses people as a means to an end. Tell me how calling people she knew and outing her to get reaction quotes helps prevent stuff being "explained away."
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Jan 20, 2014 19:55
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Holy poo poo, you're a piece of poo poo. Edit: Realized that's not a very constructive or contributive post, so I'll explain. Outing yourself as transgendered, or homosexual, or any of the other things that you can be outed as, is an enormous emotional step in this day and age, particularly in this country. People have, and still are, been disowned by their parents, harassed by their community, and indeed even prodded into depression and suicide over simply being transgendered. In many ways they're worse off than homosexuals are now. Dr. V having decided to not out herself could have been because she was a deceptive con artist, but I believe it's more likely she didn't out herself because she didn't feel ready, or she thought it would harm her standing in this or that social circle. Neither of which may be a good reason to deny an integral part of yourself, but they're reasons that have to be considered. It is, ultimately, her decision. It is NOT the decision of some journalist seeking to add emphasis or flash to a piece. Outing someone else without their permission leaves them open to enormous emotional stress, even trauma, as well as the potential to be shunned by their peers. Suicide as a result of discovering this was happening is something I could completely believe. You treating something completely unrelated to her lying about her background and credentials as "essential for the scope of the piece" is wrong. The scope can be completely encompassed by professional data I.E. credentials, work history. Personal information such as this is not necessary to be disclosed, and even if it WAS, there are other, much better ways to go about it--this thread already came up with one, "she had been living under a different name", which doesn't require outing her at all. Redeye Flight fucked around with this message at 20:13 on Jan 20, 2014 |
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Jan 20, 2014 20:05
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Also, she wasn't just outed in the piece, he went around outing her to people who knew her personally and professionally, as well as digging up quotes from people she had deliberately cut ties with, then printed their hate verbatim, none of which actually advances the story at all.
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Jan 20, 2014 20:16
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st1cky did you give your bank account number to a Nigerian prince y/n
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Jan 20, 2014 20:24
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Redeye Flight posted:Holy poo poo, you're a piece of poo poo. poo poo, people get routinely attacked and murdered for this if they happen to do it in the wrong way outing someone can be legit hazardous to their life if they happened to be even in a casual relationship with someone who might be inclined to violence, not to mention their history
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Jan 20, 2014 20:43
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I thought this was a really good read on the subject and how the person who wrote the original story seems like a pretty big piece of poo poo. http://mariadahvanaheadley.wordpress.com/2014/01/18/sinatras-cold-is-contagious-hostile-subjects-vulnerable-sources-the-ethics-of-outing/
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Jan 20, 2014 20:43
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It's been interesting seeing writers withdraw support for the article over the past week. I saw a lot of enthusiastic tweets when the article dropped and more than a few mea culpas by people that had nothing to do with it.Jummy posted:I thought this was a really good read on the subject and how the person who wrote the original story seems like a pretty big piece of poo poo. Edit: I think there's a lot of good criticism about the article, but this one seems to mischaracterize quite a bit. morestuff fucked around with this message at 20:51 on Jan 20, 2014 |
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Jan 20, 2014 20:44
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Jummy posted:I thought this was a really good read on the subject and how the person who wrote the original story seems like a pretty big piece of poo poo. That's a poorly-written article; it's really not much more than a hit piece.
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Jan 20, 2014 21:08
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Jummy posted:I thought this was a really good read on the subject and how the person who wrote the original story seems like a pretty big piece of poo poo. This is pretty awful actually. The author makes some good points regarding the trans issue but reduces Dr. V's actual transgressions to "a complicated and difficult past" and is basically saying "hey the club works so who cares if she's full of poo poo." It's also kind of disturbing that this woman says she's dabbled in non-fiction pieces yet she thinks validating sources is akin to "going around" the subject. I'd hate to be her fact checker. There's a lot to be appropriately angry about but Maria Dahvana Headley doesn't seem capable of putting together an objective argument here. The actual good critical responses are very clear about saying there IS a story here, it just has nothing to do with Dr. V being trans, whereas Headley is basically acting like the entire thing should be scrapped because feelings.
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Jan 20, 2014 21:34
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sportsgenius86 posted:This is pretty awful actually. The entire thing absolutely should have been scrapped if it couldn't be written/printed without putting someone as trans. Outing someone is an act of violence and some story about a loving golf club isn't even in the same country as worth it.
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Jan 20, 2014 22:38
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MourningView posted:st1cky did you give your bank account number to a Nigerian prince y/n Yes, and I'm still waiting on the check  . I actually know someone that scammed his own in-laws, children, and complete strangers by stealing their identity. He did some absolutely insane stuff to control and manipulate people, and a few of his "stories" involved made up stuff involving me, hence why I'm not exactly sympathetic towards con artists. He finally got caught but he still denies he's responsible. The reporter should have immediately gone to the police or feds to let them know that she was lying about having worked on a top secret project and defrauding investors in the company. That might have saved her from taking her own life.
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Jan 20, 2014 23:03
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http://thinkprogress.org/alyssa/2014/01/19/3183711/grantland/ this is a pretty good read
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Jan 20, 2014 23:08
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