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Archers only suffer from on problem in bg2, a lack of a truely epic bow. They don't need one of those however to be a good class. Archers are fine, they'll do good damage and can start doing that damage half a screen away. I'd just not rate them as high as a dual wielder or a paladin with Carsomyr. Once you start getting HLA's you'll start feeling pretty good about that character.
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Jan 20, 2014 16:45
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I think I played a sorcerer years ago when BG2 first came out. If I remember correctly, I disintegrated Irenicus in Spellhold and then he didn't appear in the later Underdark cutscene -- just the floating white text above where he should have been. Sorcerer definitely seems like the most thematically appropriate class for the whole Spawn of Bhaal thing.
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Jan 20, 2014 16:48
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bathroom sounds posted:I think I played a sorcerer years ago when BG2 first came out. If I remember correctly, I disintegrated Irenicus in Spellhold and then he didn't appear in the later Underdark cutscene -- just the floating white text above where he should have been. I just love having all the spells I'm used to having available at the same time, and I love being able to cast so many per day. Micro-managing the spellbook for a wizard drives me nuts, only ever having one or two copies of a spell I really want, or going to cast something and realising I didn't memorise it for today. Horrible.
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Jan 20, 2014 17:19
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Yeah, I was stunned by how much fun Baeloth was when I finally recruited him. Hell yeah, spamming spells all day.
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Jan 20, 2014 17:22
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Wingless posted:I just love having all the spells I'm used to having available at the same time, and I love being able to cast so many per day. Micro-managing the spellbook for a wizard drives me nuts, only ever having one or two copies of a spell I really want, or going to cast something and realising I didn't memorise it for today. Horrible. My own RP experiences and my distaste for Vancian systems aside, what hurts sorcerers in these games is that you can't swap spells out as you level. NWN2 and maybe 1 let you start the game with, say, Sleep, which is fantastic early on, and then swap it out for something else when it got too long in the tooth. Granted, BG2 starts you off at a highish level, but not having that mechanic stings. If you don't know which spells are the best ones, then you can also make a huge faux pas. Gatekeeper can undo that, sure, but I can understand not wanting to use it or not knowing about it. Also, the limited sorcerer spellbook makes it very hard to have all of the anti-mage spells that are needed while still having room for more utilitarian spells, and pretty much requires that your party have another serious arcane caster. My first runthrough of BG2 (killed the Black Dragon late in the game, then stopped for some reason), my main was a sorcerer because I hated memorising spells, but what I did is that every time I found a scroll for a new spell I would save, go into Gatekeeper, put that spell in my book and delete the scroll. Yes, I know that that sounds horrendously overpowered, but I was very young and bad at the game, so it didn't make it too easy, I assure you. I remember being a very robust level and still needing 20+ tries for the Staff of the Magi fight. I actually won on the 3rd go, but one of my characters got powderised and I had to reload. If Ressurection worked like it should, that shouldn't have been necessary... not that I'm bitter or anything. That said, sorcerers are a lot of fun and I will never understand why they didn't bring a certain sorcerer NPC from BG1EE to BG2EE.
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Jan 20, 2014 17:27
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verybad posted:
Luck works differently, instead of adding to your rolls it changes your rolls. So while the level 1 song gives you a +1 to damage, changing the damage potential of a short sword to 1d6 to 2-7, Luck changes the rolls to one number higher up to the maximum so the damage potential of a short sword is 2-6. Now on paper it looks like luck isn't much better, but like you said Luck changes ALL rolls, that includes critical misses and critical hits. As for if there's a reason to use the original, I guess if you want ever so slightly higher damage potential?
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Jan 20, 2014 17:34
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bathroom sounds posted:Sorcerer definitely seems like the most thematically appropriate class for the whole Spawn of Bhaal thing. Assassin is more thematic, Bhaal being the god of murder and all.
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Jan 20, 2014 17:39
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caleramaen posted:Assassin is more thematic, Bhaal being the god of murder and all. Good point, but sorcerer wasn't endemic to 2nd edition... it was a 3rd edition concept that was somewhat clumsily integrated into the BG series, if I'm not mistaken. Before, wizards were all scholarly types and magic was sort of a science. Having this strange magician whose powers come from sources unknown and who can defy the laws of magic links up well with the idea of divine blood. Both classes are thematically good, but I prefer the idea behind a sorcerer because, no matter what class you play in the BG series, you're going to murder a lot of poo poo.
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Jan 20, 2014 17:52
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caleramaen posted:Assassin is more thematic, Bhaal being the god of murder and all. Murder doesn't have to be sneaky murder. A fireball to the face is no less murder than a knife in the back. Besides, it's all about the power of the blood; inherent magic, once dormant, now awoken. Murdering people with intuitive control of mystical energy by right of your birth seems far more "God Child" to me than someone being able to sneak around real good.
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Jan 20, 2014 17:56
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Sarevok was going to try and get his Bhaal mojo on by being a manipulative douchebag and causing a war. Death is death, I guess.
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Jan 20, 2014 18:05
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From a thematic point of view, I actually really like the bard. He's your typical fantasy hero who is good at everything - he can fight, he's sneaky, he knows a bit of magic. All of the possible "father figures" from Candlekeep have influenced his path (Gorion taught you magic, Winthrop the sneaky business, fighting stuff from whoever teaches you that in the fighter biography). He's from Candlekeep, so he's well learned - that explains the high lore. As for bard song? That's a genuine supernatural ability, derived from Bhaal's divine essence. It's common in mythology and fantasy to associate music with the supernatural and the gods: in Silmarillion the world is created with a song, in Kalevala, the demi-god Väinämöinen casts spells that alter reality by playing his zither, etc.
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Jan 20, 2014 18:09
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verybad posted:From a thematic point of view, I actually really like the bard. He's your typical fantasy hero who is good at everything - he can fight, he's sneaky, he knows a bit of magic. All of the possible "father figures" from Candlekeep have influenced his path (Gorion taught you magic, Winthrop the sneaky business, fighting stuff from whoever teaches you that in the fighter biography). He's from Candlekeep, so he's well learned - that explains the high lore. As for bard song? That's a genuine supernatural ability, derived from Bhaal's divine essence. It's common in mythology and fantasy to associate music with the supernatural and the gods: in Silmarillion the world is created with a song, in Kalevala, the demi-god Väinämöinen casts spells that alter reality by playing his zither, etc. Also Oghma, to whom the priests at Candlekeep pray, is the patron god of Bards. 
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Jan 20, 2014 18:35
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DeathChicken posted:Sarevok was going to try and get his Bhaal mojo on by being a manipulative douchebag and causing a war. Death is death, I guess. I always thought that Sarevok's behaviour and plotting were much more Bane than Bhaal. I don't want to kick off the dual-axis alignment debate *again*, but using political and social institutions, such as governments and the guise of legitimate enterprise to cause great suffering and shortage sounds like a very Lawful Evil, God of Strife thing to do. Granted, Bhaal was Lawful Evil too, but that always struck me. verybad posted:On another subject, I have a question about IWD bard songs: is there any point to using the first one you get (+1 hit/dmg, I think?) after you get the one that gives +1 to luck among other things? I was under the assumption that the luck stat gets added to basically every roll, including hit and damage rolls so uh, what the hey? Edit: I just noticed that everything in this paragraph in response to the above was said before earlier. Base IWD1 bard songs are rubbish anyway, same as in BG until you get the HLA. IWD2 and Heart of Winter (if you have it, and you should since it's included with every version of IWD1 out there) give bards absolutely fantastic songs that can lull enemies to sleep, remove fear, and later on it outright makes everybody regenerate, which is amazing. Bards in IWD2 with Lingering Song are disgustingly good, and they can fill in for a rogue too. Now that I think of it, I played a Blade through BG1EE and almost never used bard song for reasons mentioned above, and even in BG2 it takes a bard, which is always single-class and levels the fastest in the game, a long time to get HLA's... is there a mod out there that puts the good bard songs from Heart of Winter and IWD2 into the game? That would be fantastic. One of the key features of bards is their music and it's just terrible until late into Shadows of Amn. Then again, bards get access to all mage spells in 2nd edition and are a lot more restricted in 3rd and beyond. Then again again, in 3rd edition they are spontaneous casters (which is good and bad) and get some heals, so maybe it balances out. quote:Also Oghma, to whom the priests at Candlekeep pray, is the patron god of Bards. I thought that Milil was the patron of bards (pre-loving-Spellplague, at least). Granted, he's Oghma's lackey, but still. JustJeff88 fucked around with this message at 18:43 on Jan 20, 2014 |
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Jan 20, 2014 18:38
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verybad posted:From a thematic point of view, I actually really like the bard. He's your typical fantasy hero who is good at everything - he can fight, he's sneaky, he knows a bit of magic. All of the possible "father figures" from Candlekeep have influenced his path (Gorion taught you magic, Winthrop the sneaky business, fighting stuff from whoever teaches you that in the fighter biography). He's from Candlekeep, so he's well learned - that explains the high lore. As for bard song? That's a genuine supernatural ability, derived from Bhaal's divine essence. It's common in mythology and fantasy to associate music with the supernatural and the gods: in Silmarillion the world is created with a song, in Kalevala, the demi-god Väinämöinen casts spells that alter reality by playing his zither, etc. You're being raised in a monastery with priests, scholars and a handful of guards. The guards restrict coming & going to an extreme degree. Raised in those conditions, how do you explain character classes like Monk, Barbarian, Druid or Ranger? In the end, you're still leaving Candlekeep at level 1 or 2, and you do the entirety of your class training out in the field. It just seems odd that, growing up in Candlekeep, you could inexplicably be primed to become a martial arts master or frontiersman. Godblood, I guess  JustJeff88 posted:I always thought that Sarevok's behaviour and plotting were much more Bane than Bhaal. I don't want to kick off the dual-axis alignment debate *again*, but using political and social institutions, such as governments and the guise of legitimate enterprise to cause great suffering and shortage sounds like a very Lawful Evil, God of Strife thing to do. Granted, Bhaal was Lawful Evil too, but that always struck me. unlimited shrimp fucked around with this message at 18:53 on Jan 20, 2014 |
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Jan 20, 2014 18:45
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JustJeff88 posted:I thought that Milil was the patron of bards (pre-loving-Spellplague, at least). Granted, he's Oghma's lackey, but still. Milil is the god of songs and storytelling, which is a big part of what bards do, but Oghma's portfolio specifically includes bards. bathroom sounds posted:That's another thing that never really sat right with me. This is mostly a gameplay over lore issue. It wouldn't be any fun to bar the player from a class he or she really wanted to play because it didn't fit the narrative. I suppose one could look at it, though, like that movie Matilda where the little girl develops psychic powers from reading a lot of books. You learn to be a druid, or ranger, or monk, or whatever from reading too much. I'm sure they've got Barbarianism for Dummies in there somewhere. HackensackBackpack fucked around with this message at 18:54 on Jan 20, 2014 |
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Jan 20, 2014 18:52
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bathroom sounds posted:That's another thing that never really sat right with me. Also, how did Gorion raise you if you're an elf, you'd be like 100 years old at the game start
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Jan 20, 2014 19:09
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Wingless posted:Murder doesn't have to be sneaky murder. A fireball to the face is no less murder than a knife in the back. bathroom sounds posted:Godblood, I guess JustJeff88 posted:I always thought that Sarevok's behaviour and plotting were much more Bane than Bhaal.
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Jan 20, 2014 19:11
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Yeah at the end of the day Sarevok's sole end game was "a poo poo load of people from Baldur's Gate and Amn die indirectly by my hand, for no other reason than because I demand it be so". It's pretty drat God of Murder-y
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Jan 20, 2014 19:15
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bathroom sounds posted:I think it's the difference between worldly/materialistic goals and what Sarevok was actually trying to achieve. It would be very Bane-esque for Sarevok to do what he did in pursuit of a worldly goal, like if his end game was solely to seize the Iron Throne and become a huge power broker in Baldur's Gate. Instead, he wanted to engineer a massive war expressly for the body count, in the hopes that it would cause his ascension. His political machinations were just a means to an end and he was unconcerned with worldly power per se. Factor_VIII posted:Sarevok destroyed the organizations he hijacked though and used them to try and cause as much chaos and suffering as he could. Good points. His ultimate goal was to get as many dead people as possible to lead to apotheosis, and a huge war is more death than he could possibly inflict himself outside of a plague of some sort, which would be Talona's MO and could be stopped by divine magic. Nothing more chaotic than war, I'd say, so his alignment fits. Leofish posted:Milil is the god of songs and storytelling, which is a big part of what bards do, but Oghma's portfolio specifically includes bards. That sounds right - my mistake. Bards technically don't have to be musicians anyway, just highly skilled in one art. Lyric poetry, satire, drama, painting, sculpture, Lego... those are all arts that aren't musical. A lot of them touch on Deneir's portfolio and also Finder's (very obscure demipower if you haven't read the novels) As for bard being the most "divine blood" class due to its song, the BG base bard song is more about inspiration. I can get pumped up for a football match or what have you by listening to Queen or Dio beforehand - the right music is very inspirational. Adding things like luck bonuses against saving throws, resistance to fear and morale failure, and hitting more often in combat make sense, and these are things all bards can do. Now, the IWD bard songs things like enthralling and healing the group, those are magical as gently caress and don't make sense in some ways, but I think that they were put into IWD-HoW and IWD2 just to make bard song not poo poo. Bards getting some priestly spells in 3rd+ creates a definite link to the divine and makes a song of healing seem a lot more plausible/thematic.
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Jan 20, 2014 19:25
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I really want to play IWD when I finish this BG2EE play through, but I find the high resolution mod to be disorienting in a way that the Enhanced Editions aren't. I think it's the combination ultra zoomed-out characters and tiny UI.
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Jan 20, 2014 20:27
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Hi thread. I'm on my first playthrough of BG2, in chapter 2 I believe, and I just got Jaheira's curse cured. My party consists of charname (fighter), Minsc, Jaheira, Anomen, Nalia, and a modded-in Kivan. Aside from having the most annoying party banter, I'm having a hard time defending against disabling spells, like chaos, stun, confusion, etc. Anomen and Jaheira each have one copy of Chaotic Commands memorized, and I usually buff the party with "Remove Fear" before fights, but is there a more efficient/useful way to protect against those sorts of attacks? Oh, they also both have dispel magic, but it doesn't seem to work against certain spells. Any and all advice would be appreciated--I'm really enjoying the game, but I've hit a bit of a roadblock with this.
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Jan 20, 2014 20:43
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OregonDonor posted:Hi thread. I'm on my first playthrough of BG2, in chapter 2 I believe, and I just got Jaheira's curse cured. My party consists of charname (fighter), Minsc, Jaheira, Anomen, Nalia, and a modded-in Kivan. Aside from having the most annoying party banter, I'm having a hard time defending against disabling spells, like chaos, stun, confusion, etc. Anomen and Jaheira each have one copy of Chaotic Commands memorized, and I usually buff the party with "Remove Fear" before fights, but is there a more efficient/useful way to protect against those sorts of attacks? Oh, they also both have dispel magic, but it doesn't seem to work against certain spells. Any and all advice would be appreciated--I'm really enjoying the game, but I've hit a bit of a roadblock with this. Prevent them from casting those spells in the first place. Jaheira's 5th level spell Insect Plague (Swarm? I forget which it's called) is particularly good for that.
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Jan 20, 2014 20:44
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OregonDonor posted:Hi thread. I'm on my first playthrough of BG2, in chapter 2 I believe, and I just got Jaheira's curse cured. My party consists of charname (fighter), Minsc, Jaheira, Anomen, Nalia, and a modded-in Kivan. Aside from having the most annoying party banter, I'm having a hard time defending against disabling spells, like chaos, stun, confusion, etc. Anomen and Jaheira each have one copy of Chaotic Commands memorized, and I usually buff the party with "Remove Fear" before fights, but is there a more efficient/useful way to protect against those sorts of attacks? Oh, they also both have dispel magic, but it doesn't seem to work against certain spells. Any and all advice would be appreciated--I'm really enjoying the game, but I've hit a bit of a roadblock with this. Thast's the game all over for me. No matter what I memorized I'd end up getting the wrong ones cast. If there was a useful 'cast x spell to remove y effect' I'd be all over it. But then I am cripplingly stupid.
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Jan 20, 2014 20:49
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Alright, thanks, I'll give that a shot. One of the challenges I've had getting used to this game is striking the right balance between offensive and defensive magic. I've discovered that Cloudkilling an upcoming room is a pretty great tactic, but I'd like some variety. Edit: Oh, absolutely, I hear you there. As soon as I figure out how to deal with a particular set of enemies a new one comes along and it backfires entirely.
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Jan 20, 2014 20:50
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frowning posted:Thast's the game all over for me. No matter what I memorized I'd end up getting the wrong ones cast. If there was a useful 'cast x spell to remove y effect' I'd be all over it. But then I am cripplingly stupid. Can't go wrong with having Edwin summoning 5 sword spiders, then hasting them!
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Jan 20, 2014 21:00
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Piell posted:Also, how did Gorion raise you if you're an elf, you'd be like 100 years old at the game start I don't know how wizards work in DnD, is it like other fantasy where one of sufficient power can extend his lifespan? I mean, if you want to hand wave away inconsistencies a bit. It is funny to think of a half-orc raised in Candlekeep just reading about barbarians and thinking "gently caress yeah!" though. Also, playing IWD and mucking around Dragon's Eye, just had my first taste of wraith, sword and phase spiders 
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Jan 20, 2014 21:10
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JustJeff88 posted:As for bard being the most "divine blood" class due to its song, the BG base bard song is more about inspiration. I can get pumped up for a football match or what have you by listening to Queen or Dio beforehand - the right music is very inspirational. Adding things like luck bonuses against saving throws, resistance to fear and morale failure, and hitting more often in combat make sense, and these are things all bards can do. Now, the IWD bard songs things like enthralling and healing the group, those are magical as gently caress and don't make sense in some ways, but I think that they were put into IWD-HoW and IWD2 just to make bard song not poo poo. Bards getting some priestly spells in 3rd+ creates a definite link to the divine and makes a song of healing seem a lot more plausible/thematic. I mean, you could totally interpret the Bhaalspawn Bard PC's Song special ability as just a really catchy tune or whatever, but why would you want to? verybad fucked around with this message at 21:42 on Jan 20, 2014 |
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Jan 20, 2014 21:36
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Wolfsheim posted:I don't know how wizards work in DnD, is it like other fantasy where one of sufficient power can extend his lifespan? I mean, if you want to hand wave away inconsistencies a bit. The Chosen of Mystra (Elminister, Khelben, etc.) could do this at least. Not sure how much that had to do with their magical prowess as opposed to their patron deity though.
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Jan 20, 2014 21:37
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Elver and Dwarves taking a hundred years to mature into adulthood doesn't even make any loving sense. Are they toddlers for 30 years? It's just stupid.
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Jan 20, 2014 21:44
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OregonDonor posted:Hi thread. I'm on my first playthrough of BG2, in chapter 2 I believe, and I just got Jaheira's curse cured. My party consists of charname (fighter), Minsc, Jaheira, Anomen, Nalia, and a modded-in Kivan. Aside from having the most annoying party banter, I'm having a hard time defending against disabling spells, like chaos, stun, confusion, etc. Anomen and Jaheira each have one copy of Chaotic Commands memorized, and I usually buff the party with "Remove Fear" before fights, but is there a more efficient/useful way to protect against those sorts of attacks? Oh, they also both have dispel magic, but it doesn't seem to work against certain spells. Any and all advice would be appreciated--I'm really enjoying the game, but I've hit a bit of a roadblock with this. Get nalia to remember a few breaches to help batter mages before they can do anything too nasty; it strips off protections like stoneskin and protection from magical weapons. I often find insect plague is too slow to prevent mages from getting something nasty off - blasting with elemental arrows as soon as you see them can help interrupt casting.
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Jan 20, 2014 22:21
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verybad posted:Elver and Dwarves taking a hundred years to mature into adulthood doesn't even make any loving sense. Are they toddlers for 30 years? It's just stupid. "People taking 15+ years to mature into adulthood doesn't make even any loving sense. Are they puppies for ten years? It's just stupid." - A dog. A hundred years does seem pretty extreme, but I guess it's to show they're all magical and intelligent and superior to us humans.
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Jan 20, 2014 22:53
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100 years to reach maturity is dumb as poo poo and I'm pretty sure has been mostly ignored by anyone who interacts with D&D since forever. It just doesn't make sense for creatures that, for all intents and purposes, act just like humans. They have never come off as alien or foreign as the writers have wanted them to, ever.
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Jan 20, 2014 22:57
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100 years to mature makes a lot of sense... ... for a creature that is completely alien to a human in culture and society. "Eh, a bit higher dex, a bit worse con, marginally better with bows" doesn't really do much. It's just one of those things that pops up everywhere but pretty much never actually gets explored. The Crotch fucked around with this message at 23:18 on Jan 20, 2014 |
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Jan 20, 2014 23:15
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Koskinator posted:The Chosen of Mystra (Elminister, Khelben, etc.) could do this at least. Not sure how much that had to do with their magical prowess as opposed to their patron deity though. The Crotch posted:100 years to mature makes a lot of sense...
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Jan 20, 2014 23:18
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Full maturity might just mean attaining a certain beard length or something. I feel bad for posting that.
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Jan 20, 2014 23:22
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Captain Oblivious posted:100 years to reach maturity is dumb as poo poo and I'm pretty sure has been mostly ignored by anyone who interacts with D&D since forever. Maybe they just have like, 80 years of puberty and in elves puberty just means you act like a superior smug rear end in a top hat. Which in would explain a lot about your standard fantasy elves.
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Jan 20, 2014 23:24
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kingcom posted:Maybe they just have like, 80 years of puberty and in elves puberty just means you act like a superior smug rear end in a top hat. Which in would explain a lot about your standard fantasy elves. This is basically the best explanation. Elves as the eternal annoying teenager.
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Jan 20, 2014 23:40
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verybad posted:And I'm pretty sure its that inspirational quality that the right music possesses that made ancient people associate music with magic and gods. What's your point, exactly? Yes, I know, every NPC bard gets the same bard song (well, except the Skald/Jester variants since there are none of those in the games), but you know, even that one is pretty loving magical when you think about it: it's not only an inspiring song, it's a one that makes the listeners completely and utterly fearless - even Khalid will fight to the death under the spell of that song, and no magical spell of fear will affect anyone listening, nor can it be dispelled. Sounds pretty godly to me. (Oh, and incidentally, Gandalf's - a demigod of sorts - major magic power in Lord of the Rings was the ability to inspire people to fight Evil.) Easy there, I'm just putting at an opinion on which class seems the most "godly", which is simply my opinion. I simply felt that bard song was fairly banal, not that you don't have a point, but breaking the rules of magic is amazing because even Chosen of Mystra have to memorize spells, though they get tons of extra abilities and Elminster especially is ubiquitous to the point of being annoying. Sorcerers aren't "indigenous" to 2nd edition and being able to cast spells without a spellbook seems very much like "OMG breaking the rules" to me. The only other 2nd edition character I can think of who broke the rules of spellcasting, besides maybe avatars of Mystra herself, was Cadderly the Chosen of Deneir, another Salvatore creation, and he could cast a specific number of spell levels per day like wizards did in Netheril before the fall and Mystra changed the rules of magic. Until Baeloth in BG1EE, there were no sorcerers or other spontaneous casters in that series of games, or really in D&D in general, except for the PC if the player goes that way, and being able to cast spontaneously is absolutely unbelievable. I can also see the case made for wild mages, but having spells go off with hilarious/stunning/disastrous results would at first blush seem more of an impediment than manifestation of godly power.
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Jan 20, 2014 23:58
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sebzilla posted:"People taking 15+ years to mature into adulthood doesn't make even any loving sense. Are they puppies for ten years? It's just stupid." - A dog. You know, there's actually quite a difference between dogs and people. Like, for example, I know for a fact that you're not quoting an actual dog because dogs can't speak. Language and culture, man, they're huge. Pointy ears? Not so much.
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Jan 21, 2014 00:08
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I had a decent high school experience but even I would sooner pursue the mantle of Lord of Murder than spend 100 years there.
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Jan 21, 2014 00:55
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