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Rumda posted:Only in the highlands and possibly in Clydesdale, the Hebrides has a strong Norse link, Orkney is practically Norwegian and the lowlands is Germanic. I meant self-national representation if not linguistically. I mean culturally, genetically and linguistically the difference between Scotland and England is negligible. But Scotland had a strong tradition of presenting it as a descendant of Celtic culture.
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Jan 21, 2014 16:19
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Rumda posted:Only in the highlands and possibly in Clydesdale, the Hebrides has a strong Norse link, Orkney is practically Norwegian and the lowlands is Germanic. In the past few years I keep seeing the Visegrad group, Austria and Slovenia (and sometimes Germany) being referred to more and more as Central Europe, and Eastern Europe being reserved for Russia's sphere of influence in Europe.
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Jan 21, 2014 16:50
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Scotland definitely isn't a Nordic nation. Not that I'd give a crap if it joined because Scotland's cool (Estonia too!) but I can honestly say that as a Nordic person (if that's a thing?) I've never heard of Scotland being spoken of in Nordic context.
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Jan 21, 2014 16:55
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Rumda posted:Only in the highlands and possibly in Clydesdale, the Hebrides has a strong Norse link, Orkney is practically Norwegian and the lowlands is Germanic. Greenland is still part of the Kingdom of Denmark  Also love the different shade of green for Turkey. the jizz taxi posted:In the past few years I keep seeing the Visegrad group, Austria and Slovenia (and sometimes Germany) being referred to more and more as Central Europe, and Eastern Europe being reserved for Russia's sphere of influence in Europe. We've long seen ourself as being in Central Europe here in Germany, except during the Cold War, where it was just Western Europe vs. Eastern Europe.
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Jan 21, 2014 17:01
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Torrannor posted:Greenland is still part of the Kingdom of Denmark But not in Europe!  then again that doesn't explain Kazakhstan... EDIT: wait, apparently part of it is considered to be Eastern Europe, being west of the Ural River.
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Jan 21, 2014 17:06
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Rumda posted:Only in the highlands and possibly in Clydesdale, the Hebrides has a strong Norse link, Orkney is practically Norwegian and the lowlands is Germanic. DarkCrawler posted:Scotland definitely isn't a Nordic nation. Not that I'd give a crap if it joined because Scotland's cool (Estonia too!) but I can honestly say that as a Nordic person (if that's a thing?) I've never heard of Scotland being spoken of in Nordic context. (Though obviously that model has been, and is, under attack in every Nordic Country.)
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Jan 21, 2014 17:19
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A Buttery Pastry posted:Scotland isn't independent though. How many people talked about Estonia in a "Nordic context" when it was part of the USSR? In Finland, at the least...well, everyone. Plucky little Estonia.  A Buttery Pastry posted:The thing that sets Nordic Countries apart is basically a commitment to the "Nordic Model" of social and economic policies Well, that and hundreds, if not thousands of years of common and shared history, especially in the case of Scandinavia...all five Nordic countries literally being the same state for a short while too.
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Jan 21, 2014 17:22
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You folks talk about this as if there's an official membership to the group of Nordic countries and being a member gives you political advantages. Isn't it just a name? Or is it actually a group of closely cooperating countries like the Benelux?
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Jan 21, 2014 17:27
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Carbon dioxide posted:You folks talk about this as if there's an official membership to the group of Nordic countries and being a member gives you political advantages. Isn't it just a name? Or is it actually a group of closely cooperating countries like the Benelux? There is indeed an official group, the Nordic Council: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nordic_Council
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Jan 21, 2014 17:29
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A Buttery Pastry posted:
If Scotland became independent.
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Jan 21, 2014 17:38
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I'm getting the impression that the Nordic label seems to be mostly a prestige thing, similar to how Eastern Europe keeps getting smaller over time as various countries declare themselves Western. To me, it would make more sense from a linguistic and ethnic point of view if Finland and Estonia associated with each other, regardless of whether the latter should be seen as 'Nordic'.
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Jan 21, 2014 17:39
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DarkCrawler posted:In Finland, at the least...well, everyone. Plucky little Estonia. DarkCrawler posted:Well, that and hundreds, if not thousands of years of common and shared history, especially in the case of Scandinavia...all five Nordic countries literally being the same state for a short while too. Rejected Fate posted:If Scotland became independent. Phlegmish posted:I'm getting the impression that the Nordic label seems to be mostly a prestige thing, similar to how Eastern Europe keeps getting smaller over time as various countries declare themselves Western. To me, it would make more sense from a linguistic and ethnic point of view if Finland and Estonia associated with each other, regardless of whether the latter should be seen as 'Nordic'.
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Jan 21, 2014 17:42
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Phlegmish posted:I'm getting the impression that the Nordic label seems to be mostly a prestige thing Not in Nordic countries. If we talk about how close we feel to other countries, in Finland it's pretty much. 1. Sweden 2. Estonia 3. Other Nordic countries 4. Everybody else. Sometimes Sweden and Estonia switch places depending on if we're facing Sweden on ice hockey or not. I honestly don't know as close of an association between independent countries then the Nordic, except maybe the Commonwealth Nations? We had no passport checks between borders before EU was even a thing. I mean, look at our flags! Look at our coats of arms, lions everywhere (except Iceland, but they're weird). Why do you think all of us evolved with pretty much identical political systems (aside from two being republics instead of monarchies)? Phlegmish posted:To me, it would make more sense from a linguistic and ethnic point of view if Finland and Estonia associated with each other, regardless of whether the latter should be seen as 'Nordic'. From linguistic and ethnic viewpoint Finland would have to form some bizarre council where nobody understood why they were there with Estonia, Hungary and Karelia Republic, Khanty-Mansi, Komi Republic, Udmurt Republic, Mari Republic, and Mordva Republic in Russia. If you haven't heard of the last six, Finns haven't heard about the last five either. If you want to talk about linguistics, Finland has a small (though highly influential) Swedish minority and Swedish is an official language in Finland (although not many can actually speak it fluently despite it being mandatory). We were also an integral part of Sweden for hundreds and hundreds of years and it has easily been the country culturally closest to us for all of Finland's existence (since those bastards conquered us and brought Christianity to us). Sweden has honestly contributed most to the rise of an independent Finland more then anyone (except Swedish-speaking Finns). Right down to creating an official region that was called "Finland". Pretty much every important person in Finnish history pre-independence had a Swedish surname. Danish is apparently also a mandatory subject in Iceland as well. BTW it would make total sense for Estonia to be an official Nordic country. The same kinda relationship Finland has with Sweden when it comes to cultural influence from a larger neighbor, they have with Finland. We were the first to recognize them as an independent country (in 1920!), together with Sweden contribute 75% of it's foreign investment and receive 42% of it's exports. There probably isn't a Finn alive who hasn't been to Tallinn at least once, if only to go buy cheap alcohol (I've been at least a dozen times...mostly to buy cheap alcohol though). A crapload of foreign workers in Finland are Estonians. We do associate with each other pretty much in every way besides being an official association. Well, since they joined the EU we kind of are that too. DarkCrawler fucked around with this message at 18:27 on Jan 21, 2014 |
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Jan 21, 2014 18:18
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Rumda posted:
I'm feeling trolled by this map. the jizz taxi posted:In the past few years I keep seeing the Visegrad group, Austria and Slovenia (and sometimes Germany) being referred to more and more as Central Europe, and Eastern Europe being reserved for Russia's sphere of influence in Europe. Nobody wants to be associated with the words "Eastern Europe", we're all trying to escape it. In romania I think these days we're calling ourselves south-eastern european or straight up southern european; personally I coined the term "balkan latino", hope it takes off 
3peat fucked around with this message at 18:31 on Jan 21, 2014 |
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Jan 21, 2014 18:22
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the jizz taxi posted:In the past few years I keep seeing the Visegrad group, Austria and Slovenia (and sometimes Germany) being referred to more and more as Central Europe, and Eastern Europe being reserved for Russia's sphere of influence in Europe. The only important thing in these maps is to ensure that Poland always remains in Eastern Europe. Even if we decide Lithuania, Belarus, Ukraine, Slovakia and the Czech Republic are all in some other group for some reason, Poland must always remain in the Eastern group (with Russia), because it makes annoying Polish hyper-nationalists just furious.
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Jan 21, 2014 18:34
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Yes, it's like a lava lamp.
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Warms the cockles of my white, black, and blue heart to see people sticking up for plucky little Estonia in this thread It would certainly be an interesting thing if Scotland got in on the Nordic Council though. The Norse have had a huge influence on the British Isles, plus Northern Eurobros, but it would certainly be weird to drive north for a few hours and end up in 'Scandinavia' (I know I wouldn't but I would insist it was so)
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Jan 21, 2014 18:42
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You can just drive from Germany to Denmark, you know. Also, from Denmark across the Øresund bridge to Sweden.
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Jan 21, 2014 18:57
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Torrannor posted:There is indeed an official group, the Nordic Council: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nordic_Council The Nordic countries also have a passport union which slots in with the Schengen agreement but grants even more rights than Schengen or EU freedom of movement to citizens of other Nordic nations.
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Jan 21, 2014 18:57
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Carbon dioxide posted:You can just drive from Germany to Denmark, you know. Also, from Denmark across the Øresund bridge to Sweden. Yes but I don't live in Germany.
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Jan 21, 2014 19:27
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You can drive from England to France to Germany.
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Jan 21, 2014 19:33
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A Buttery Pastry posted:Scandinavia most definitely does not include Finland, it being the name of the cultural area of Denmark, Norway and Sweden dreamt up back in the day when those were all the rage. Eh, you're mostly right, but if we're talking history and/or cultural ties it makes sense to include Finland (as is, in fact, sometimes done). Not that it ought to matter much since Finland is definitely Nordic either way, even if we stick by strict contemporary definitions. I don't see why (contemporary) Scandinavia "proper" and ties to the same should carry any special weight in a Nordic context, other than it being part of the latter, which Finland is also. A Buttery Pastry posted:I'm not sure the prime minister of a full member country is "nobody", even if it might not carry as much weight as if it had been the Norwegian prime minister. But he didn't say it in an official capacity nor in any way that was binding. He was just running his mouth, pretty much. No disrespect to Iceland. 3peat posted:"balkan latino" I love it. Cake Smashing Boob fucked around with this message at 20:38 on Jan 21, 2014 |
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Jan 21, 2014 20:13
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Finland is not part of "Scandinavia" in the original sense of the term, which definitely only encompassed Sweden, Denmark and Norway. I suppose the Nordic label was invented later to... well, I don't know why really. Personally I try to pay attention to the difference. But admittedly every time somebody talks about the Scandinavian countries and mentions Finland I make sure to remind them that we are not Scandinavian, and every time there is a press article on the media praising Scandinavia, I make sure to check that Finland is mentioned Here in Finland most people who have a clue about the world around them are aware of this difference between "Scandinavia" and the Nordics and we mostly just consider the country Nordic. In the media it's always Nordic co-operation, Nordic countries, Nordic politics, never Scandinavia. Tbh we don't really care about Norway or especially Denmark anyway Estonia certainly feels a lot closer than those two states. Dividing Europe into regions is not an easy task. The Nordic countries are a good example. They are "Western European" but actually Northern European is a much better definition, except that "Western European" is usually used to refer to standard of living, not geography. Fabulous Knight fucked around with this message at 20:27 on Jan 21, 2014 |
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Jan 21, 2014 20:19
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Fabulous Knight posted:Finland is not part of "Scandinavia" in the original sense of the term, which definitely only encompassed Sweden, Denmark and Norway. I suppose the Nordic label was invented later to... well, I don't know why really. Personally I try to pay attention to the difference. But admittedly every time somebody talks about the Scandinavian countries and mentions Finland I make sure to remind them that we are not Scandinavian, and every time there is a press article on the media praising Scandinavia, I make sure to check that Finland is mentioned Benito Hitlerstalin posted:But he didn't say it in an official capacity nor in any way that was binding. He was just running his mouth, pretty much. No disrespect to Iceland. Fabulous Knight posted:In the media it's always Nordic co-operation, Nordic countries, Nordic politics, never Scandinavia. Tbh we don't really care about Norway or especially Denmark anyway
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Jan 21, 2014 20:35
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Fabulous Knight posted:Finland is not part of "Scandinavia" in the original sense of the term, which definitely only encompassed Sweden, Denmark and Norway. I suppose the Nordic label was invented later to... well, I don't know why really. Personally I try to pay attention to the difference. But admittedly every time somebody talks about the Scandinavian countries and mentions Finland I make sure to remind them that we are not Scandinavian, and every time there is a press article on the media praising Scandinavia, I make sure to check that Finland is mentioned Well, Iceland is definitely not in Scandinavia but is is certainly a Nordic country. So this label is quite useful. Denmark actually has not held Skane for more than 300 years. So it is interesting that Finland, which holds parts of the Scandinavian peninsula, is not part of Scandinavia, while Denmark, which has not held land on the peninsula for centuries, is always counted among the Scandinavian countries.
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Jan 21, 2014 20:37
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Scandinavia is mostly a linguistic region.
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Jan 21, 2014 20:39
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Torrannor posted:Well, Iceland is definitely not in Scandinavia but is is certainly a Nordic country. So this label is quite useful.
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Jan 21, 2014 20:48
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FartGhost posted:You can drive from England to France to Germany. That involves directions other than north
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Jan 21, 2014 21:14
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The sooner we can get out of the EU and into our own Nordic union the better. Make moving around and relocating even easier, learn each others' languages/accents from the start and sit back and drink beer and throw massive parties in Iceland. Screw the Euro and screw all that austerity bullshit!  Heck, the baltics and the balkan latinos can come too.
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Jan 21, 2014 22:17
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gimpfarfar posted:The sooner we can get out of the EU and into our own Nordic union the better. Make moving around and relocating even easier, learn each others' languages/accents from the start and sit back and drink beer and throw massive parties in Iceland. Screw the Euro and screw all that austerity bullshit! Well, alcohol is much cheaper here in Germany, you mean you want to impose Scandinavian alcohol taxes on the poor Baltics? Wonder what the Russian minorities will do once you apply that tax to Vodka.
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Jan 21, 2014 23:01
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Torrannor posted:Well, alcohol is much cheaper here in Germany, you mean you want to impose Scandinavian alcohol taxes on the poor Baltics? Wonder what the Russian minorities will do once you apply that tax to Vodka. Poitín even has EU protected geographical status now.
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Jan 21, 2014 23:17
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Benito Hitlerstalin posted:A double Nordic Cross, if you will. Seriously though, don't get that busy abomination mixed up with our junk. I mean, a centered cross? Really? It's like you people (non-nordic cross havers) never heard of the golden ratio Here's a nordic version I mocked up, sadly I don't think it's all that good: 
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Jan 22, 2014 01:20
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That's pretty sweet actually.
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Jan 22, 2014 01:21
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Reveilled posted:Here's a nordic version I mocked up, sadly I don't think it's all that good: (Cool flag.)
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Jan 22, 2014 01:24
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Talking about Nords, have genealogical studies ever been done in Russia, Ukraine, and Belarus to try and ascertain the origin of the Rus' people (whether the Rus were Varangians (Nords) or Slavs)? Would the studies be very effective? Edit: Wikipedia confusingly states that there is (Kievan Rus, History, Origin, paragraph 2) and is not (Rus' people, first line of article) a controversy. America Inc. fucked around with this message at 03:20 on Jan 22, 2014 |
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Jan 22, 2014 03:05
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Negative Entropy posted:Talking about Nords, have genealogical studies ever been done in Russia, Ukraine, and Belarus to try and ascertain the origin of the Rus' people? Would the studies be very effective? Well, the Nerds only created first Rus states, they didn't really colonize the area so I don't believe that they will have much genealogical impact on Russians today.
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Jan 22, 2014 03:11
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Negative Entropy posted:Talking about Nords, have genealogical studies ever been done in Russia, Ukraine, and Belarus to try and ascertain the origin of the Rus' people (whether the Rus were Varangians (Nords) or Slavs)? Would the studies be very effective? There was a study of modern descendents of Rurik. Their Y-chromosome was associated with North Germany
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Jan 22, 2014 03:22
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Disco Infiva posted:Well, the Nerds only created first Rus states, they didn't really colonize the area so I don't believe that they will have much genealogical impact on Russians today. I had no idea the kingdoms of Gondor, Alderaan and Equestria were early Rus states.
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Jan 22, 2014 03:27
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There's known modern descendants of Rurik? Aren't known lineages that go back that far pretty rare? I know Japan's imperial family is really old and I guess the Capets live on as Bourbons.
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Jan 22, 2014 03:31
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Mustang posted:There's known modern descendants of Rurik? Aren't known lineages that go back that far pretty rare? I know Japan's imperial family is really old and I guess the Capets live on as Bourbons. If you're white you're probably related to Charlemagne.
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Jan 22, 2014 03:37
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Reveilled posted:I had no idea the kingdoms of Gondor, Alderaan and Equestria were early Rus states. Only Gondor and Alderaan, Equestria is from Harry Potter.
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Jan 22, 2014 03:48
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