The Iron Rose posted:I mean it can be pretty fun, but let`s not pretend it`s anything but poor to mediocre dark sci-fi. Honestly, I think it's because they don't realize it's not a good book, series, etc. They sincerely think stuff like 40K, Mass Effect, Star Wars, and so on are the pinnacle of (sci-fi) writing, and anything that came before it is a bunch of crap not worth experiencing, even if they directly influenced said favorite works.
|
|
#
?
Jan 21, 2014 00:56
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 23, 2024 10:29 |
|
|
No such thing as notability: your cheap tie-in novels are just as important to literature as the works they stole from! (I still like some 40K novels, like Gaunt's Ghosts. Even if it is ripping off Sharpe)
|
|
#
?
Jan 21, 2014 01:01
|
|
|
Regalingualius posted:Honestly, I think it's because they don't realize it's not a good book, series, etc. They sincerely think stuff like 40K, Mass Effect, Star Wars, and so on are the pinnacle of (sci-fi) writing, and anything that came before it is a bunch of crap not worth experiencing, even if they directly influenced said favorite works. Yeah, that's what happens when you have a bunch of people who consume nothing but young adult/genre fiction. You can see the effects in things like the "Post Your Concept" thread in Writer's Block, where pretty much all the concepts posted are either sci-fi or fantasy.
|
|
#
?
Jan 21, 2014 01:20
|
|
|
Arcsquad12 posted:No such thing as notability: your cheap tie-in novels are just as important to literature as the works they stole from! I'm very much okay with people ripping off of Sharpe because Sharpe is awesome.
|
|
#
?
Jan 21, 2014 01:24
|
|
Cat Army 
|
MizPiz posted:To get us away from the Fluffy abomination, what's the story behind the no notability, no criticism rule? I get that to them it's supposed to be the basis for them to remain objective when doing... whatever they do (and ultimately manifests as treating My Favorite Fap-Fic #63 the way actual academics would treat Ulysses), but did it come from something happening on TVTropes or has it always been there? No Notability probably stems from when Wikipedia made some efforts to crack down on frivolous articles about fictional/trivial bullshit, setting some standards for notability for something to be written up on their site. People who wanted a place to document that poo poo flocked to sites like TVTropes. The results speak for themselves.
|
|
#
?
Jan 21, 2014 01:28
|
|
|
The Iron Rose posted:I mean it can be pretty fun, but let`s not pretend it`s anything but poor to mediocre dark sci-fi. I agree completely. Just because a work is fun and entertaining does not make it a masterpiece. The best stories aren't always the most impressive or badass or whatever, but they have depths that contain far more. I used to hate the classics, but after reading them, I can't get enough of them. My favorite story is The Last Question, and holy poo poo is that a good story. Old sci-fi is amazing, and it is shameful that people like tropers would disregard it so casually. Edit: speaking of which, do they have a page for The Last Question? I would look myself, but I can't bring myself to actually look at that site long enough to see it.
|
|
#
?
Jan 21, 2014 01:53
|
|
|
I am the M00N posted:Edit: speaking of which, do they have a page for The Last Question? I would look myself, but I can't bring myself to actually look at that site long enough to see it. 
|
|
#
?
Jan 21, 2014 01:57
|
|
|
I'm a huge Heinlein fan, and their trope pages are horribly limited. Double Star is an excellent story, and I don't think they even have a trope page. EDIT. They do. Not much to look at, though.
|
|
#
?
Jan 21, 2014 02:00
|
|
|
Arcsquad12 posted:I'm a huge Heinlein fan, and their trope pages are horribly limited. Double Star is an excellent story, and I don't think they even have a trope page. You'd think they'd at least have lots of stuff on Farnham's Freehold
|
|
#
?
Jan 21, 2014 02:08
|
|
|
crowfeathers posted:You'd think they'd at least have lots of stuff on Farnham's Freehold Well, they've got a lot of stuff on Starship Troopers, though more of that seems focused on the Verhoeven film, or the "power armor is awesome!" mindset for people who haven't actually read the book. Very little is said about how controversial the book was, or how its ideology that Heinlein was promoting ran counter to the United States military at the time.
|
|
#
?
Jan 21, 2014 02:15
|
|
|
MizPiz posted:To get us away from the Fluffy abomination, what's the story behind the no notability, no criticism rule? I get that to them it's supposed to be the basis for them to remain objective when doing... whatever they do (and ultimately manifests as treating My Favorite Fap-Fic #63 the way actual academics would treat Ulysses), but did it come from something happening on TVTropes or has it always been there? No notability has been touched on and was always there AFAIK, but the no criticism thing I think came about after Yahtzee criticized that game that Fast Eddie did the programming for. Fast Eddie, as we all know, freaked out and declared an anti-criticism jihad, setting out to make the huggiest box on the Internet where no criticism is allowed of anything, ever. IIRC, there used to, a long time ago, be a fair amount of mockery of things. Off the top of my head, I know the Sonichu and FATAL pages used to basically exist for the purpose of mocking Sonichu/Chris-Chan and FATAL, respectively. Of course, both of those pages have been cleaned of "meanness", and actually the FATAL article, which consisted entirely of mocking FATAL for being the shitheap that it is, appears to have been basically remade into a tiny, somewhat-bland stub (even the YMMV page, where they moved anything that seemed remotely critical on any articles, is literally blank for FATAL) and locked. If only they would do that with every page for a horrible rape-related thing  .I'd say that's a good thing, that their pocky-stained tendrils haven't reached Isaac Asimov. It's generally best to keep tropers away from things that have actual literary value. They do bad things to them. VV IIRC it was some WWII shooter, I want to say some 360 Castle Wolfenstien remake. The one where Yahtzee did a review in limerick form. Hammurabi fucked around with this message at 02:26 on Jan 21, 2014 |
|
#
?
Jan 21, 2014 02:16
|
|
|
Hammurabi posted:No notability has been touched on and was always there AFAIK, but the no criticism thing I think came about after Yahtzee criticized that game that Fast Eddie did the programming for. Fast Eddie, as we all know, freaked out and declared an anti-criticism jihad, setting out to make the huggiest box on the Internet where no criticism is allowed of anything, ever. Did anyone ever conclusively determine which game that was?
|
|
#
?
Jan 21, 2014 02:21
|
|
|
Very disappointing. The fact that they disregard the classics is a good example of why their writing is so shallow.
|
|
#
?
Jan 21, 2014 02:41
|
|
|
I vaguely remember an author saying that all writers steal. But the best ones steal from the real world or things that people don't normally think about much like the mythological ties in blues songs. When you write wizard books based on wizard books based on wizard books things turn to poo poo pretty quickly. Tropers love proving whoever that was right.
|
|
#
?
Jan 21, 2014 02:53
|
|
|
Razorwired posted:I vaguely remember an author saying that all writers steal. But the best ones steal from the real world or things that people don't normally think about much like the mythological ties in blues songs. When you write wizard books based on wizard books based on wizard books things turn to poo poo pretty quickly. It seems to be profitable to rip off Tolkien, though, so maybe they're on to something
|
|
#
?
Jan 21, 2014 02:55
|
|
|
The best case scenario is that they rip it off in a way that substantially changes it and makes it new.
|
|
#
?
Jan 21, 2014 02:56
|
|
|
Such as what Tolkien did when he adapted folklore and epics into the Silmarillion.
|
|
#
?
Jan 21, 2014 03:06
|
|
|
Finisher1 posted:Did anyone ever conclusively determine which game that was?
|
|
#
?
Jan 21, 2014 04:17
|
|
|
Sham bam bamina! posted:Wolfenstein '09 Ah, that explains a lot then. I wonder if he has any involvement in the upcoming one.
|
|
#
?
Jan 21, 2014 04:32
|
|
|
The Iron Rose posted:I think that's the thing tropers don't get actually. You can enjoy something that's still not actually very good. It's quite possible! I enjoy all sorts of things that aren't actually very good in terms of books or movies or video games or whatever. I still enjoy them, I just don't pretend that they're quality, and I don't get why they have such a chip on their shoulder about it. This was brought up in the old thread, but it has to do with the fact that they have so little going on with their lives that they define themselves by the entertainment they consume, so if someone attacks their entertainment in any way, they interpret it as an attack on themselves. Ergo, for the sake of their ego, everything has to be good and equal and notable, because tropers overcompensate for their demons by swelling their egos whenever possible. Really, ninety percent of troper problems boil down to 'Can't accept that their being picked on in school was meaningless' and the dreaded 'Maybe some of the abuse I got was my own fault'.
|
|
#
?
Jan 21, 2014 05:54
|
|
|
Tropers are the kind of people who can't parse the difference between 'Hi, my name is Bill and I like watching movies and playing games' and 'Hi, my name is Bill and my fandoms are'. One is an interest in a potentially wide-ranging field, while with the other, you're nailing down your entire being in the first few seconds of a conversation. And when people inevitably call them out on it, boom, drama. I've said it before and I'll say it again: anyone who bases their entire identity around a single interest is probably suspect. A fandom is not an acceptable substitute for a personality.
|
|
#
?
Jan 21, 2014 13:40
|
|
|
Kaboom Dragoon posted:Tropers are the kind of people who can't parse the difference between 'Hi, my name is Bill and I like watching movies and playing games' and 'Hi, my name is Bill and my fandoms are'. One is an interest in a potentially wide-ranging field, while with the other, you're nailing down your entire being in the first few seconds of a conversation. And when people inevitably call them out on it, boom, drama. "Hi, my name is Bill and my fandoms are X Y & Z" "Hi, I'm Jane. Yeah, I used to watch X but it's pretty lovely these days-" "HOW DARE YOU CALL ME lovely!"
|
|
#
?
Jan 21, 2014 14:27
|
|
|
So, you know how Cormac McCarthy writes books that are very, very depressing but excellent, and usually focus on how people deal with and survive horrible things beyond their control? Let's see what tropers have to say about that!quote:I read the Road by Cormac Mc Carthy over a year ago, so this isn't as fresh in my mind as it was before. You picked up McCarthy expecting some kind of Mad Max sci fi book? How loving stupid can you possibly be? Some choice comments on that review: quote:Art isn't an excuse for crappy writing, ever.  . The amount of thought that goes into each paragraph is more than these people would put into their War and Peace sized fanfiction monstrosities.And, of course, the winner, the quote that sums up these idiots as a whole! quote:"entertaining distractions"? Like the reasons we read books? Lord, I hope he never picks up Blood Meridian. That was one of the best books I've ever read, but "entertaining distraction" it was not.
|
|
#
?
Jan 21, 2014 15:24
|
|
|
---
Inspector Zenigata fucked around with this message at 22:52 on Apr 2, 2014 |
|
#
?
Jan 21, 2014 15:48
|
|
|
Tropers don't actually like art. They have a few pages about True Art, which are mostly making fun of art that isn't pop culture stuff. Now, could they be classifying certain tropes about how art is depicted in media? Well, they could, but all the True Art tropes are Your Mileage May Vary tropes, which is another aspect of the no-negativity policy. Subjective tropes got pulled over onto their own sub page. What this means is that the True Art tropes are about what tropers think about art. That is, True Art is... Old, Depressing, Dull, and I Don't Get It. For tropers, True Art is Anime and anyone who says differently is a snooty intellectual who doesn't understand fun. Unlike tropers who clearly understand fun: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/SelfDemonstrating/TrueArt worse than uncylopedia posted:Have you ever phoned a police box? You shouldn't. Police boxes might not actually have an operational phone, and it's annoying when it rings all the time. Who needs phones, anyway?
|
|
#
?
Jan 21, 2014 15:58
|
|
posted:
|
Djeser posted:That is, True Art is...  On the plus side, it makes my lovely writing look much better by comparison.
|
|
#
?
Jan 21, 2014 17:08
|
|
|
---
Inspector Zenigata fucked around with this message at 22:52 on Apr 2, 2014 |
|
#
?
Jan 21, 2014 17:17
|
|
|
Yeah, that's a Berserk Button for me too.
|
|
|
#
?
Jan 21, 2014 17:19
|
|
|
Inspector Zenigata posted:I have a question for you guys: does anyone else get irritated when people write posts or whatever that capitalize trope names that they mention in their posts in discussions not directly about TVTropes? I don't have any specific examples, but I read through the entire Irrationally Irritating Movie Moments thread in the past week (I'm bedridden atm) this cropped up more frequently than you might think. They write whole posts normally, then capitalize Up To Eleven or Plot Armor and it completely changes how I see their post because it lets me know that their views are the product of the kaleidoscope that is TVTropes. At least there's nothing conceptually wrong with "Plot Armor". It's poo poo like "Word of God" and "brilliantly averted/subverted trope" that come up way too often when goons try to analyze fiction.
|
|
#
?
Jan 21, 2014 17:47
|
|
|
Morkyz posted:Yeah, that's a Berserk Button for me too. Broken many pencils over it?
|
|
#
?
Jan 21, 2014 17:55
|
|
|
Nope, I Brutally Subverted that trope. When I need a pencil broken, I just get my Yandere Deadpan Snarker Nakama to do it.
|
|
|
#
?
Jan 21, 2014 18:00
|
|
|
It's been forever since I visited TvTropes, but I think the moment I realized that the site was stupid was when I started noticing that internet memes were suddenly being made into tropes, no matter how redundant they were or how much of a stretch was made for examples. poo poo like "The Cake is a Lie" and "All Your Base" were now tropes!  I'd post the links, but I'm afraid to go back there, like a recovering coke addict that still remembers how great the highs seemed at the time.
|
|
#
?
Jan 21, 2014 18:10
|
|
|
I once broke 33 pencils though sometimes people had to help me. Don't gently caress with this troper
|
|
#
?
Jan 21, 2014 18:12
|
|
|
Honestly I legitimately like tvtropes. The forums and like 3/4ths of the articles are poo poo, but if you avoid anything related to ponies or Japan the site is ok.
|
|
|
#
?
Jan 21, 2014 18:13
|
|
|
Ugly In The Morning posted:Lord, I hope he never picks up Blood Meridian. That was one of the best books I've ever read, but "entertaining distraction" it was not. I dunno man, there is plenty of awesome violence in Blood Meridian. If you're looking for a McCarthy book that tropers can misinterpret to be about awesome badasses doing wicked cool poo poo, Blood Meridian is probably it. Also, hahahaha, I looked at his page and look what I found! quote:Beige Prose: Often used. However, he also often uses words that people who aced the SATs would have to look up. It all depends on the book. Yes, this is how I would describe the prose of Cormac McCarthy, very dull and boring. Tellingly, there are no pages for any of his novels that have not been made into movies.
|
|
#
?
Jan 21, 2014 18:21
|
|
|
Morkyz posted:Nope, I Brutally Subverted that trope. When I need a pencil broken, I just get my Yandere Deadpan Snarker Nakama to do it. They were *all* Deadpan Snarkers in your Nakama? Man, get your tropes right. That Nakama trope always struck me as hilarious because of the whining that came from it. The trope is now called "True Companions" because some of the less Weeaboo influenced tropers thought that random japanese words from some lovely anime weren't indicative of the trope. Que a shitstorm of people whining about the need to understand the context of the word, and how One Piece/Naruto/Bleach are the pinnacle of animation and that you'd need to be an ignorant fool NOT to know what Nakama means. Encyclopedia Dramatica may be a shithole, but they did get me up to speed on some of the bigger blowups on the TvTropes forums.
|
|
#
?
Jan 21, 2014 19:00
|
|
|
Morkyz posted:Honestly I legitimately like tvtropes. The forums and like 3/4ths of the articles are poo poo, but if you avoid anything related to ponies or Japan the site is ok. Did you ever see a big spider in your room, just as you were about to go to bed? And it hid somewhere before you were able to remove it, so you lie there, very consciously aware that there is a big spider in your room, even though you can't see it? And every darkened spot you see *is* that spider, until you get close enough to check? TVTropes is the room, and the ponies, anime, and rape are the spiders. I know they're there, and can detect their presence in even the most seemingly irrelevant and innocuous pages.
|
|
#
?
Jan 21, 2014 19:08
|
|
|
Swan Oat posted:Yes, this is how I would describe the prose of Cormac McCarthy, very dull and boring. That motherfucker, using long words in his book
|
|
#
?
Jan 21, 2014 19:09
|
|
|
Morkyz posted:Honestly I legitimately like tvtropes. The forums and like 3/4ths of the articles are poo poo, but if you avoid anything related to ponies or Japan the site is ok. The "True Art" stuff posted just above you isn't about Japan or ponies. Please link to these supposed non-lovely parts. Even when you escape the blatantly rapey parts, you end up with at best endless worthless boring bullshit.
|
|
#
?
Jan 21, 2014 19:24
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 23, 2024 10:29 |
|
|
Lottery of Babylon posted:The "True Art" stuff posted just above you isn't about Japan or ponies. It may be that I am incredibly  , but sometimes I want to read an exhaustive list of every sniper rifle in every video game, and TVTropes is perfect for that.It sucks at everything else, though.
|
|
#
?
Jan 21, 2014 19:31
|
|
