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OBAMA CURES ALAWIS posted:For Hot Topic anarchy. See I made the right choise in ignoring him. Raskolnikov38 posted:Reality! Now with Leninist bias! And I did - I actually posted a link to a pdf of Black Flame, so you wouldn't have to drag your fat LF rear end out of the house to read it. I'm back at my copy, so let me pick out the relevant pages. First, Chapter 5 on page 149 (chapter is called "Anarchism, Syndicalism, the IWW and Labor"): [it is] "necessary to confront a number of traditionel arguments that deny a connection between anarchism and syndicalism, and in some instances, even suggest an opposition between the two currents." Such claims can be based on two ideas, that the ideas are based on conflicting ideals, or that which claims that the roots of revolutionary lies outside of anarchism, either in "revolt against reason" or in classical marxisms. Both are wrong. On page 150, the claims of the Revolt Against Reason (RAR) current is identified and debunked (Sorel thought he was the pioneer of syndicalism, but the claim is evidently baseless as he came later than it's birth.) - the whole heart of RAR is that syndicalism is a "mood" rather than a strategy, and really has nothing to do with revolutionary syndicalism. On page 153, under the heading "The First International and the First Syndicalists", the first syndicalists are quoted as having their inspiration in the "Bakunist or federal" wing of the first international. Reading on, the view that anarchism and syndicalism was linked was actually "commonplace" from mid-1890s to the mid-1920s. Claims to the contrary are marxist revisionism. From these roots grew the IWW (further detailed from p 159, "the IWW and Syndicalism", CGT, USI, CNT (and even to Portugal, China, Japan and South America, as detailed in 162 and on) and other mass socialist currents responsible for living wages, shorter wook weeks, collective bargaining and an end to the worst excesses of the ruling class. If there is a particular claim or period that got your panties in a bunch, just ask.
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Jan 22, 2014 13:01
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Tias posted:If there is a particular claim or period that got your panties in a bunch, just ask. Tias posted:I have done no such thing, and I've never claimed that communists, socialists or trade unionists (who, incidentally, were dominated by anarchists from 1900-1930) didn't participate. The sum total of my argument was directed at you and the goon who said "historical anarchism doesn't matter", since anarchists dominated the labour movement that created the 8 hour day, international labor struggle day, spontaneous communist revolutions in Russia, Spain, Portugal and Ukraine, and attempts at the same in Germany and France, as well as a lot of places outside of Europe. How about the highly specific claim that anarchists "dominated" the labour movement which caused the German revolution
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Jan 22, 2014 13:08
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My goodness, what a complicated genealogy. Could you give us like a family tree or something, this is hard to keep track of.
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Jan 22, 2014 15:36
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Enjoy posted:How about the highly specific claim that anarchists "dominated" the labour movement which caused the German revolution They didn't, but they were a part of it. Dusz>> Did you get dropped on your head as a kid a lot, because  that's some shitposting.
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Jan 22, 2014 15:37
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Tias posted:They didn't, but they were a part of it. You should take notes from other, more successful missionaries - it's never a good idea to hurl child-like insults against people ypu're trying to convert.
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Jan 22, 2014 15:39
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Tias posted:They didn't, but they were a part of it. Okay, which other things in your list did anarchists merely participate in rather than dominate
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Jan 22, 2014 15:46
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Dusz posted:You should take notes from other, more successful missionaries - it's never a good idea to hurl child-like insults against people ypu're trying to convert. Is he trying to convert us to Posting on the Internet About How People and Things That Aren't Anarchist Actually Are?
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Jan 22, 2014 16:02
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There is some confusion over how large a part they played in the Russian revolution to be sure, but in the initial uprising many anarchists or libertarian communists which we can rightly associate with a mass anarchist movement, did participate. As I said, the collected works of Maurice Brinton (AK Press) had a wonderful and well-sourced collection of papers on the militarization of the trade unions and the purges of libertarian and democratic currents in the country.
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Jan 22, 2014 16:04
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I really wish this was LF so we could truly speak our mind about how loving retarded Anarchism is 
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Jan 22, 2014 16:30
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SWITCH HITLER posted:I really wish this was LF so we could truly speak our mind about how loving retarded Anarchism is I had a great moment last year where my dad told me he was an anarchist in his 20's and I got to sit there and smugly tell him what an idiot he was.
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Jan 22, 2014 16:37
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 (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Jan 22, 2014 16:44
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posting superstar!!!!! To bring the discussion back to Fascism in Europe, I posit that there's nothing more destructive to the cause of fighting fascism than a group of delusional ideologues who would rather tear the state down to nothing, and not even try to replace it because of reasons that nobody but said ideologues can comprehend.
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Jan 22, 2014 16:48
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SWITCH HITLER posted:posting superstar!!!!! I would say that you're wrong, and the most destructive thing to the cause of fighting fascism at the moment is stupid retarded ideological slap fights between the left. Luckily my local antifa consists of anarchists, communists and various other flavours of leftist who work together because opposing fascists is more important than being right on the internet 
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Jan 22, 2014 17:33
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Tias posted:And I did - I actually posted a link to a pdf of Black Flame, so you wouldn't have to drag your fat LF rear end out of the house to read it. Because linking a 250+ page book and demanding the other the party read it for an internet argument is not reasonable you rear end. Tias posted:If there is a particular claim or period that got your panties in a bunch, just ask. There is actually and its one I should have stated more clearly than my snarky citation needed post. I don't know much of anything about the history or labor unions other than they include all branches of the left, perhaps you can link some specific examples of the actions of anarchists in these unions. However, the point I really wanted to drive at was your claim here: Tias posted:oh hey, also a driving force in major socialist revolutions such as the Russian one! You really don't know what you're talking about. Other than the anarchists that participated in the taking of Moscow, which someone else had to link, you haven't provided anything to back this up at all. Your argument thus far appears to be that whatever good came from the October revolution is because of anarchism for ~~~reasons~~~ and then the anarchists tried to stop it when it went wrong and failed. Which is the loving point fishmech made in the first place, anarchism has some good ideas but has itself has not accomplished much outside of participating and/or leading in trade unions and holding for a while in Catalonia. E: to clarify fishmech's point was that anarchist haven't accomplished much if anything not that all good from the October revolution was because of anarchists. Raskolnikov38 fucked around with this message at 00:54 on Jan 23, 2014 |
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Jan 22, 2014 23:10
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Raskolnikov38 posted:Because linking a 250+ page book and demanding the other the party read it for an internet argument is not reasonable you rear end. That's because the burden of proof is on the person making the retarded blanket statement that historical anarchism has done nothing, a claim that is patently hosed up to even the most passing student of labour history - not me. quote:However, the point I really wanted to drive at was your claim here: And no one is saying that, just that the initial insurrection was an anarchist revolution - down-top government, soviet councils that federated rather than dominated, and the trade union as a polity-organizing force. It was, for all we can explain, an anarchist revolution since crushed with utmost force by Lenin and Trotsky.
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Jan 23, 2014 09:02
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A return of fascism in Europe is just as likely as a return of communism. Both are dead ideologies with but a few genuine supporters that are mostly mocked and laughed at by everyone outside their tiny little clique. Russia is not Europe
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Jan 23, 2014 09:47
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Entropia posted:A return of fascism in Europe is just as likely as a return of communism. Both are dead ideologies with but a few genuine supporters that are mostly mocked and laughed at by everyone outside their tiny little clique. Let me guess you are making a semantic argument that far-right parties have nothing to do with fascism including Jobbik and the Golden Dawn.
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Jan 23, 2014 10:06
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Fascism is either a 'pure' state of total Mussolini or it is currents displaying a majority of fascist traits. The latter is the only sensible use of the words in these days.
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Jan 23, 2014 10:17
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On the note of Jobbyk, this article: http://www.theguardian.com/world/shortcuts/2014/jan/22/fascist-hungarian-gabor-vona-immigrant-uk states that their leader has spoken positively of Islam, was that a one off or are they consistently well disposed (or at least not outright hateful) towards Muslims? If that's the case it is an interesting contrast to the rest of Europe where fascists have been using Islamophobia as much as possible and tending to adhere to Breivik's manifesto when it comes to antisemitism; tolerate Israel and Zionist Jews because they're useful for now, hate non-Zionists as usual.
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Jan 23, 2014 10:26
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I dunno if it's that much of a contrast. I certainly remember lots of antisemites (at least in Central Europe) flocking to defend Islam when Ahmadinejad made his infamous remarks about Israel. Seems that they usually don't want Muslims on their home turf but see Islam as a kindred ideology that protects other countries from liberal decadence.
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Jan 23, 2014 10:41
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Entropia posted:A return of fascism in Europe is just as likely as a return of communism. Both are dead ideologies with but a few genuine supporters that are mostly mocked and laughed at by everyone outside their tiny little clique. A return of liberalism in Europe is just as likely as a return of medieval feudalism. Both are dead ideologies with but a few genuine supporters that are mostly mocked and laughed at by everyone outside their tiny little clique. - Forums poster Entropia circa 1815 ReV VAdAUL posted:On the note of Jobbyk, this article: http://www.theguardian.com/world/shortcuts/2014/jan/22/fascist-hungarian-gabor-vona-immigrant-uk states that their leader has spoken positively of Islam, was that a one off or are they consistently well disposed (or at least not outright hateful) towards Muslims? steinrokkan posted:I dunno if it's that much of a contrast. I certainly remember lots of antisemites (at least in Central Europe) flocking to defend Islam when Ahmadinejad made his infamous remarks about Israel. Seems that they usually don't want Muslims on their home turf but see Islam as a kindred ideology that protects other countries from liberal decadence. It's more that fascism doesn't feel like it has to be internally consistent, and thus they can swing wildly from hatred to appreciation in their rethoric. The good money is on the fash hating anybody who's part of a minority, though.
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Jan 23, 2014 10:50
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Cerebral Bore posted:It's more that fascism doesn't feel like it has to be internally consistent, and thus they can swing wildly from hatred to appreciation in their rethoric. Or, you know, there's a lot of variety in fascist ideology and rhetoric and it depends on which group you're talking about.
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Jan 23, 2014 11:03
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Tias posted:BURBDEN OF PROOF, BURRDEN OF PROOF (literally shaking) Oh if only the Christians had had Saint Tias instead of Saint Peter - all of Europe would be atheists today.
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Jan 23, 2014 11:34
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ReV VAdAUL posted:On the note of Jobbyk, this article: http://www.theguardian.com/world/shortcuts/2014/jan/22/fascist-hungarian-gabor-vona-immigrant-uk states that their leader has spoken positively of Islam, was that a one off or are they consistently well disposed (or at least not outright hateful) towards Muslims? It is, generally speaking, an important point of difference between neo-Nazi movements and populist anti-immigration/anti-EU parties. The former are always first and foremost anti-Semitic, and thus view immigration primarily as a Jewish plot. For this reason they sometimes express admiration, or at least respect, for the enemies of Israel, such as Hezbollah and Iran today, or Libya in the past. The latter, meanwhile, see immigration in itself as the problem, and in it's more extreme versions, as a Muslim plot for the conquest of Europe. Consequently, they view Israel as an ally in the struggle against Islam, and a defender of "European values". That said, the distinction isn't always that sharp, and there are plenty of examples that incorporate elements of both. Tuxedo Catfish posted:Or, you know, there's a lot of variety in fascist ideology and rhetoric and it depends on which group you're talking about. Right, there's no monolithic fascism, or for that matter any organization like a "fascist international" to decide what the proper policy should be. Instead there's a great deal of variation due to local culture, demographics and history, as well as the biases and temperaments of leading figures.
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Jan 23, 2014 12:15
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Tias posted:That's because the burden of proof is on the person making the retarded blanket statement that historical anarchism has done nothing, a claim that is patently hosed up to even the most passing student of labour history - not me. Actually no, you can never prove a negative. You cannot prove that anarchism has done nothing, the burden of proof is on the other side - proof that anarchism has done something. That said, if reading a book with 250 is too much for an internet argument, you can always take relevant quotes and source them, so that other people can easily find that information if they need to.
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Jan 23, 2014 13:24
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Ardennes posted:Let me guess you are making a semantic argument that far-right parties have nothing to do with fascism including Jobbik and the Golden Dawn. Nah, I'm making the argument that their voting base consists mostly of the disenfranchised and pissed off, and that their support will evaporate the moment they get any kind of say in anything that happens. The same thing almost happened to the german nazis as well, and it was only the fundamental weakness of the weimar state (fascist judiciary etc) that allowed them to take power. Modern western states, even lovely ones like greece and hungary, are institutionally too stable to allow for a seizure of power by non-democratic forces like fascists or communists. They might indeed get enough of the vote in places where everything is going down the toilet to have an influence on how the government works, but peddling hate and socialism doesn't get you very far when you're incapable of seizing control over key government institutions.
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Jan 23, 2014 16:36
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Entropia posted:
Would you say the current Hungarian government are pro-democracy given their implementation of the 2011 constitution? Or are you saying dictatorship is possible, just not fascist dictatorship?
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Jan 23, 2014 16:57
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Entropia posted:Modern western states, even lovely ones like greece and hungary, are institutionally too stable to allow for a seizure of power by non-democratic forces like fascists or communists. They might indeed get enough of the vote in places where everything is going down the toilet to have an influence on how the government works, but peddling hate and socialism doesn't get you very far when you're incapable of seizing control over key government institutions. And yes, I know that the euro crisis is officially over(TM). Again.
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Jan 23, 2014 17:52
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ReV VAdAUL posted:Would you say the current Hungarian government are pro-democracy given their implementation of the 2011 constitution? Or are you saying dictatorship is possible, just not fascist dictatorship? No, I'm saying there's a limit to how much power the executive branch of the state can exert, even in a state such as Hungary. Yes, the current Hungarian government is autocratic and dickish, but no matter how much Mr. Orban may wish to be anointed as the Putin of Hungary, if he pushes too hard, the rest of the state institutions have enough power to oust him. Same thing with the fascists, if they'd ever gain enough voting power to exert any kind of power. Which they won't. Hungary and Greece may be terrible cauldrons full of human misery and holocaust candidates, but there just ain't enough hate and violence left in Europeans to actually exert an overthrow of a state in the name of some batshit-insane ideology a hundred years dead.
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Jan 23, 2014 18:00
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Fascism in Europe is only 70 years dead, though. Less if you count Franco as a fascist.
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Jan 23, 2014 18:06
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Silver2195 posted:Fascism in Europe is only 70 years dead, though. Less if you count Franco as a fascist. I haven't followed too closely but is there a major far right party in Spain or Portugal?
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Jan 23, 2014 18:13
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Entropia posted:No, I'm saying there's a limit to how much power the executive branch of the state can exert, even in a state such as Hungary. Yes, the current Hungarian government is autocratic and dickish, but no matter how much Mr. Orban may wish to be anointed as the Putin of Hungary, if he pushes too hard, the rest of the state institutions have enough power to oust him. To put it plainly, as long as people think they are getting a better deal out of a representative democracy than any other system in plain sight, most of them will support it. It doesn't even have to be a good deal they're getting. The question is what will happen if this support ever evaporates - what is waiting in the wings? Dusz fucked around with this message at 18:25 on Jan 23, 2014 |
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Jan 23, 2014 18:21
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Kurtofan posted:I haven't followed too closely but is there a major far right party in Spain or Portugal? I don't think there's anything in Spain, and there's definitely nothing over here of any relevance. KoldPT posted:Thankfully, our fash is useless. This was the last time the Partido Nacional Renovador (National Renovation Party) was in the news, in 2007. They put up several outdoors in Lisbon, shown below:
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Jan 23, 2014 19:00
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KoldPT posted:I don't think there's anything in Spain, and there's definitely nothing over here of any relevance. Do you think this is a result of Franco/Salazar's legacies?
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Jan 23, 2014 19:12
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Dusz posted:To put it plainly, as long as people think they are getting a better deal out of a representative democracy than any other system in plain sight, most of them will support it. It doesn't even have to be a good deal they're getting. No sane human being would say that representative democracy is delivering, and most would say that the western political system is in a crisis of some kind or another. The reason why our current dissatisfaction with our system of government hasn't led to a (notable) rise in support for the far right or -left is that they aren't really alternatives. They're both dead as ideologies, and outside a fringe base people in countries like Greece and Hungary only support them as a form of protest against a political system that has utterly failed them. Now the question that to me is far more interesting than the laughable potentiality of a fascist/communist/anarchist uprising, is why haven't we been able to come up with alternatives to our dysfunctional democracy? All we seem to be able to do is to remiss about the ghosts of the past who will never return.
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Jan 23, 2014 19:27
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Entropia posted:No sane human being would say that representative democracy is delivering, and most would say that the western political system is in a crisis of some kind or another. The reason why our current dissatisfaction with our system of government hasn't led to a (notable) rise in support for the far right or -left is that they aren't really alternatives. They're both dead as ideologies, and outside a fringe base people in countries like Greece and Hungary only support them as a form of protest against a political system that has utterly failed them. That's so loving dumb. "What will people turn to when they lose faith in liberalism? Don't say communism or fascism, those are only popular because people lost their faith in liberalism!"
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Jan 23, 2014 19:35
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Entropia posted:No sane human being would say that absolute monarchy is delivering, and most would say that the western political system is in a crisis of some kind or another. The reason why our current dissatisfaction with our system of government hasn't led to a (notable) rise in support for liberalism that it isn't really an alternative. It's dead as an ideology, and outside a fringe base people in countries like Italy and Germany only support them as a form of protest against a political system that has utterly failed them. - Forums poster Entropia circa 1848. Tuxedo Catfish posted:Or, you know, there's a lot of variety in fascist ideology and rhetoric and it depends on which group you're talking about. There usually isn't that much variety among the fash when the subject is whether to hate minorities or not. The variety would be the specific minorities that are the target du jour, but that's pretty much it.
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Jan 23, 2014 19:41
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Cerebral Bore posted:- Forums poster Entropia circa 1848. You need to work on your satire. Starting to repeat yourself a fair bit.
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Jan 23, 2014 19:50
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Entropia posted:You need to work on your satire. Starting to repeat yourself a fair bit. Unfortunately I'm limited by the material I have to work with.
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Jan 23, 2014 20:00
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Cerebral Bore posted:Unfortunately I'm limited by the material I have to work with. Don't worry ugly child, regenerative neuroscience may one day be able to help you.
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Jan 23, 2014 20:11
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