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Kopijeger posted:I was reminded of something about the game that doesn't seem to make sense: how is it that any vampire can be a public figure to any extent and conduct business directly with mortals when they never can show their faces in daytime and they never seem to age even though they have been around for years? The Voermans do this, Lacroix is the front figure of a corporation named after him, plus there are a couple of Toreadors we encounter later that are in a similar situation. This could easily have been sidestepped by having them act through mortal intermediaries. Makeup, hair dye, body double ghouls, a shadow family/ghoul breeding pool and the occasional Point of Willpower to make plastic surgery stick. With some effort a vampire can make a kind of shadow dynasty where is in the public eye for a decade or more as one person, fabricate an heir, and eventually replace himself. The ghoul body doubles stand in at some daylight affairs and/or are the son/father so you can be in the same room at the same time. Do a bit of surgery every now and then when necessary - its alright to be the spitting image of one's father, but not too much. Of course the important key is that the vampire isn't in the public eye for a lengthy continuous or even 24/7 period. A bit of torpor or just behind the scenes manipulation smooths the spots while the 'heir' is at a very private school in Europe, around the time of 'birth' for family togetherness, retreated from the public eye with 'declining health', and all that. Amnistar posted:I believe that they can also stay awake during daytime if they are powerful enough allowing them to attend meetings indoors and such. Yes, they can - its just very difficult and involves Willpower and rolls every round I think it is. Without certain rituals/other stuff, anyway. Not very practical, being up during the day. LeJackal fucked around with this message at 23:54 on Jan 23, 2014 |
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Jan 23, 2014 23:50
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I believe that they can also stay awake during daytime if they are powerful enough allowing them to attend meetings indoors and such.
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Jan 23, 2014 23:52
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Kopijeger posted:I was reminded of something about the game that doesn't seem to make sense: how is it that any vampire can be a public figure to any extent and conduct business directly with mortals when they never can show their faces in daytime and they never seem to age even though they have been around for years? The Voermans do this, Lacroix is the front figure of a corporation named after him, plus there are a couple of Toreadors we encounter later that are in a similar situation. This could easily have been sidestepped by having them act through mortal intermediaries. How much contact do you really think they have with the mortal world? The Lacroix Foundation would be a shell or holding company, and the Asylum nightclub has, what, one permanent employee in the place at any given time? And even if you start thinking about wider scales, the Ventrue have Domination, the Malkavian have Obfuscation, and the Toreador have Presence.
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Jan 23, 2014 23:55
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Therese Voerman wanted to remove the ghost so that the hotel could be demolished and the property redeveloped. Could she plausibly do that without meeting with business partners or local officials during daytime? Lacroix has a big office and the guard at the front desk knows who he is, so he is a public figure from the perspective of mortals. Which course of action would be easier for him:stay in the shadows and have a Dominated board of directors run the company on his behalf, or run the company himself even though he cannot meet anyone in daytime and eventually would have to pretend to be his own son?
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Jan 24, 2014 00:08
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Kopijeger posted:Therese Voerman wanted to remove the ghost so that the hotel could be demolished and the property redeveloped. Could she plausibly do that without meeting with business partners or local officials during daytime? Lacroix has a big office and the guard at the front desk knows who he is, so he is a public figure from the perspective of mortals. Which course of action would be easier for him:stay in the shadows and have a Dominated board of directors run the company on his behalf, or run the company himself even though he cannot meet anyone in daytime and eventually would have to pretend to be his own son? This is where ghouls come into play, plus you'd be surprised what you can accomplish through email and phone calls. Voerman had one ghoul at the blood bank; who's to say she doesn't have another one for financial dealings? Hell, doesn't even have to be a ghoul--paid assistant works just as well. A vampire who tries to do it all will fail. Vampire the game is at its heart a political game (among a few other things)--making use of contacts, allies, and leverage to accomplish your goals and defeat your enemies. The most powerful vampires never have to get out of the coffin in the evening. As for daytime operations, it gets exceedingly difficult for vampires of low humanity to remain awake during the day. Still, not out of the question for a phone call or other low-effort activity. I've never heard of that "spend a WP to make plastic surgery stick" rule. As far as I know/can recall, the only ways to permanently alter a vampire's appearance are Vicissitude (by a lower generation wielder), some thaumaturgy rituals, having all of your skin eaten off by tiny flies, and sometimes aggravated damage. OAquinas fucked around with this message at 00:44 on Jan 24, 2014 |
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Jan 24, 2014 00:28
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Aesclepia posted:I'd like to hear about it!  I'm pretty sure that's Sascha Vykos, Beckett's ~archnemesis~, on the left (with a Vohzd/war ghoul in the background), not sure who the others are supposed to be (Lucita, Beckett's previously mentioned Lasombra pal, maybe? She wasn't always antitribu). In contrast, this is the Guide to the Camarilla cover (Beckett's Malkavian pal, Anatole, is there... you can probably guess which one he is):  Just on the tunnel-vision topic, they make it pretty explicit in these guidebooks. For example, there is a short section devoted to summing up what younger/older Sabbat Cainites think about various sects and types of supernaturals, which includes things like this: Young Cainites' Opinions posted:The Changelings Anyway, the hierarchy of the Sabbat is not actually that different from the Camarilla regardless of philosophical differences (note that despite this hierarchy, the Sabbat is supposed to be much more of a meritocracy than the Camarilla). It's mostly based on territorial control (given that they're constantly at war against the Camarilla and sometimes Anarchs, it makes sense), and many of the titles therein are based off those of the Catholic Church (because Lasombra). The Regent is effectively the head of the entire Sabbat, though obviously in reality they don't actually hold the reins of the entire sect. Below that individual, Cardinals are in control of large areas that may include an entire country or a large region within one. Along with being in charge of that region, they also have the responsibility of advising and selecting the Regent. Archbishops are the Sabbat's closest equivalent to a Prince, and they are also responsible for a geographic area, though a smaller one, usually, like a city, and they report to their Cardinals. If there isn't a single Archbishop, or if s/he controls too large of an area, there will be multiple Bishops in a city, each controlling a domain and overseeing several packs of Cainites. There are also other ranks within the Sabbat that aren't tied to maintaining Sabbat control and order in a particular region--a Priscus is a high-ranking vampire who serves as an advisor, and Templars are high-ranking bodyguards/secret police/muscle. A Sabbat pack isn't just a group of vampires. First, they usually have two positions of relative authority within the pack: a Ductus, the pack leader, and a Priest, who is in charge of the pack's "moral" compass and presiding over rituals, which the Sabbat regard highly. One of these rituals is called the Vaulderie, in which everyone in the pack mixes their blood together, then everyone takes a sip (plus stuff like a ceremonial knife, chalice, blah blah blah magic). This results in a weird sort of blood bond* called the Vinculum, in which all members of the pack are somewhat blood-bonded to each other and "the pack" as a whole, ensuring loyalty and preventing any of the normal sort of blood bonding from occurring to anyone else. Refusing the Vaulderie is very gauche and suspicious behavior. Packs usually have some kind of specified way that they contribute to the Sabbat's goals. For example, you might have a pack that specializes in infiltration, one that specializes in counter-Camarilla combat, or one responsible for maintaining control over a mortal population. Obviously not everyone in the pack has to be good at the same thing, but they tend to be made up of vampires who can build on each other's strengths toward particular types of goals. * Blood-bonding, if it hasn't been covered yet, is what happens when a vampire drinks another vampire's blood three times. Similar to ghouling, it causes the bonded individual to form a strong, positive emotional attachment and desire to protect and serve the bonder. Three times is the number for the bond to become solidified--before that, each time the blood is consumed, the feelings of devotion and loyalty increase in magnification. This is why new childer are enthralled with their sires, especially in the beginning. A vampire can only have a true blood bond with one other vampire at a time; lesser bonds (1st and 2nd level for the number of times the blood has been consumed, respectively) can exist in conjunction with it, but there can only one "level 3" bond at a time. The simplest way to break a blood bond is to kill the bonder, but that is not easy to do (or even encourage, or think about) if you're the bonded one. It can also fade over a very long period of time if you have no contact at all with the bonder (and definitely don't drink their blood), but that can also be difficult to do. Anybody else, feel free to add to my walls of text if you like!
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Jan 24, 2014 01:28
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OAquinas posted:I've never heard of that "spend a WP to make plastic surgery stick" rule. As far as I know/can recall, the only ways to permanently alter a vampire's appearance are Vicissitude (by a lower generation wielder), some thaumaturgy rituals, having all of your skin eaten off by tiny flies, and sometimes aggravated damage. I might be confused. I know this rule is in nWoD for sure, and I thought it was in oWoD as well. Unfortunately I don't have my oWoD books handy, but here is the reference for nWoD. VtR, page 175 posted:Normally, vampires revert to the state in which they were Embraced while they sleep during daylight hours. Hair cut during the course of the night grows back, a shaved five o’clock shadow returns if the Kindred was Embraced while scruffy, and minor wounds correct themselves. In some cases, however, this reversion is prevented. If a vampire suffers damage, those wounds persist until the vampire heals them.
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Jan 24, 2014 01:59
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LeJackal posted:I might be confused. I know this rule is in nWoD for sure, and I thought it was in oWoD as well. Unfortunately I don't have my oWoD books handy, but here is the reference for nWoD.  This is how you can get a Flaw like Permanent Wound, where you were Embraced with some kind of gaping wound that comes back every day even if you heal it that night. E: vvv Yup, it can be. Of course, for drama/story reasons, this isn't applied unilaterally. You could explain the healing away as part of the Embrace pretty easily if you wanted. Stroop There It Is fucked around with this message at 03:23 on Jan 24, 2014 |
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Jan 24, 2014 03:00
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Stroop There It Is posted:Yeah, I don't think this mechanic existed in oWoD, to my knowledge. This is from the Storyteller's Handbook:
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Jan 24, 2014 03:10
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JT Jag posted:Ah, so the old dramatic "turn someone who is dying into a vampire to "save" them" deal is a bad idea. And that's besides the moral implications. Pretty much this. Though giving them blood so they can heal themselves can sometimes suffice. As for the WP thing--didn't realize it was a VtR change; been a while since I read that one. Yeah, that's a new thing for the new line--probably to get away from sharpie tattoos.
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Jan 24, 2014 03:31
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JT Jag posted:Ah, so the old dramatic "turn someone who is dying into a vampire to "save" them" deal is a bad idea. And that's besides the moral implications. A while ago I asked Vic (who's been absent from the thread for a while) about the limits of embracing a dead person. Since the embrace already involves killing the childe, I was wondering what the maximum amount of time was between killing the childe, and embracing them. He told me that it's pretty much up to the storyteller, though you can't go to the local morque and embrace a week-old corpse.
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Jan 24, 2014 03:34
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gatz posted:A while ago I asked Vic (who's been absent from the thread for a while) about the limits of embracing a dead person. Since the embrace already involves killing the childe, I was wondering what the maximum amount of time was between killing the childe, and embracing them. He told me that it's pretty much up to the storyteller, though you can't go to the local morque and embrace a week-old corpse. I've always heard that you have until the next sunrise. That's straight hearsay, though.
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Jan 24, 2014 03:36
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apostateCourier posted:I've always heard that you have until the next sunrise. That's straight hearsay, though. It's storyteller fiat. Generally "before the corpse is cold" is a good measure.
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Jan 24, 2014 03:38
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JT Jag posted:Ah, so the old dramatic "turn someone who is dying into a vampire to "save" them" deal is a bad idea. And that's besides the moral implications. There's a specific flaw for that sort of thing: V:tM 20th posted:Permanent Wound (3pt. Flaw) You suffered injuries during your Embrace which your transformation somehow failed to repair. At the beginning of each night, you rise from sleep at the Wounded health level, though this may be healed by spending blood points.
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Jan 24, 2014 03:58
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edit: never mind
Added Space fucked around with this message at 04:15 on Jan 24, 2014 |
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Jan 24, 2014 04:08
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Added Space posted:You can burn blood to stay awake during the day as long as your humanity is above average. You can still run a company 10-20 years with minimal suspicion about appearance; you're a rich bastard who can get as much surgery as you want. Also it's only a sunrise-sunset day, which means depending on how far from the equator you are, a vampire in winter could be seen during the business day quite a bit.
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Jan 24, 2014 04:13
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From memory, Sabbat can substitute Path rating for Humanity on some checks, and I’m pretty sure that includes taking action during daylight, as well as how long they spend in torpor. If you try a daylight raid on an elder expecting them to be incapacitated, you might be in for a nasty surprise. Also I think some of their substitute Virtues can help with stuff like this, can’t really remember the details though. Paths of Enlightenment are kinda weird like this – Humanity can be technically considered a Path, and back in the Dark Ages, the Road (as they were then known) of Humanity was just one of many practised by Kindred of all kinds. The focus of the path is being like humans, which is why it lets Kindred seem more human, and why it’s the default path in modern Vampire – being human is something all humans have experience with, after all. A Kindred with very high Humanity rating will even seem to be more alive than most humans, and will have a much easier time blending in with them. Conversely, a low rating will make them seem very much inhuman. Other Paths… I can't remember all the details, but they each have a different emphasis and make certain checks easier/harder. The Path of the Beast, for example (not sure I have the name right, there were a bunch of variants IIRC) will at high rating cause your presence to terrify humans, as they recognised the presence of a predator in their midst. This gives you a significant bonus to Intimidate, IIRC. If anyone’s interested, I can dig up my books and expand on this a little more, or maybe someone has a handy link.
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Jan 24, 2014 05:03
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Normally the virtues are Conscience, Self-Control, and Courage to the best of my recollection. Some paths will substitute out one or both of Conscience or Self-Control however. Some paths replace Conscience with Conviction, having no concern at all for petty morality or empathy and instead emphasizing clarity of purpose. Others replace Self-Control with Instinct, placing value upon being in tune with the Beast and understanding it but not being controlled by it. That's the best I can remember from playing Sabbat anyway. I loving love playing Sabbat.
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Jan 24, 2014 05:12
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GrimRevenant posted:From memory, Sabbat can substitute Path rating for Humanity on some checks, and I’m pretty sure that includes taking action during daylight, as well as how long they spend in torpor. If you try a daylight raid on an elder expecting them to be incapacitated, you might be in for a nasty surprise. People tend to ignore that little throw away line though. V20 actually introduced the Auras from the various Dark Ages Roads to the modern paths, which is kinda nifty.
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Jan 24, 2014 05:45
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Xarlaxas posted:That might be a better way to do it, rather than having it interspersed throughout the update. I skimmed it and it seems pretty devoid of real content. A lot of vague talk about revolt and such, some worthless name-dropping (Kropotkin, "anarcho-mutualism" which is incorrectly worded -- mutualist anarchists would just call themselves mutualists, and there is no non-anarchist system of mutualism), but lacking in any real description of Anarch goals, strategy, structure, etcetera. If I missed the relevant section, someone feel free to point me to it. gatz fucked around with this message at 06:15 on Jan 24, 2014 |
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Jan 24, 2014 05:52
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citybeatnik posted:I think the RAW is that if you're on a Path, you're treated as being Humanity 3 or less depending on your rating. Period. Well, I know that Torpor specifically checks against Humanity or Path rating, and in Dark Ages you rolled against your Road, be it Humanity or otherwise, for taking daylight actions, so it seems logical that it would work the same way in modern nights. The only “Humanity 3” thing I can recall in regards to Paths was that you needed to be that low to change to one, but it’s been a while, and I do remember there are some funky edge cases with Paths. Will see if I can find it in my books if I get a chance, as this is now bugging me. And yeah, I love the Auras.  ⁂ In regards to the Anarchs, I think the term is more usefully understood with regards to its Greek roots: I ripped this from Wikipedia because I'm lazy posted:anarchy… derived respectively from the Greek ἀναρχία, i.e. anarchy (from ἄναρχος, anarchos, meaning "one without rulers"; from the privative prefix ἀν- (an-, i.e. "without") + ἀρχός, archos, i.e. "leader", "ruler"; (cf. archon or ἀρχή, arkhē, i.e. "authority", "sovereignty", "realm", "magistracy") The Anarch Revolt was carried out in order to rid themselves of their leaders, the Antediluvians and Methuselahs, and the crushing influence of their Domains. Beyond that, well, it makes sense that vampire Anarch philosophy would differ greatly from that of human anarchists, as their fundamentally different natures mean vastly different needs and responses. That’s in-universe rationalisation, of course. I, for one, am definitely looking to the upcoming Anarchs versus anarchism update. 
GrimRevenant fucked around with this message at 06:49 on Jan 24, 2014 |
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Jan 24, 2014 06:13
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GrimRevenant posted:Path of Humanity stuff The 3 Humanity thing probably comes from this: Vampire: the Masquerade Corebook Appendix posted:As a corollary to this, a Path follower is treated as though he has a Humanity score of 3 when using the rules for interacting with mortals. If the Path follower's Path rating is less than 3, use that score instead. It's also the maximum number of Humanity that you can be at if you want to switch Paths. Also: Sabbat Player's Guide posted:In all other ways, unless otherwise specified, inhuman paths and Virtues function like their human counterparts. Isn't everyone just thrilled that I have these books on hand 
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Jan 24, 2014 07:28
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ulmont posted:There's a specific flaw for that sort of thing: The wording of that flaw, though - "which your transformation somehow failed to repair" - implies that usually the transformation would heal such wounds.
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Jan 24, 2014 09:49
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Kloro posted:The wording of that flaw, though - "which your transformation somehow failed to repair" - implies that usually the transformation would heal such wounds.
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Jan 24, 2014 11:05
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gatz posted:I skimmed it and it seems pretty devoid of real content. A lot of vague talk about revolt and such, some worthless name-dropping (Kropotkin, "anarcho-mutualism" which is incorrectly worded -- mutualist anarchists would just call themselves mutualists, and there is no non-anarchist system of mutualism), but lacking in any real description of Anarch goals, strategy, structure, etcetera. If I missed the relevant section, someone feel free to point me to it. So, not much better than before on actual philosophy, but with added vampire Anonymous and "Fangbook". It did at least mention explicitly in the start that they're all basically doomed to ennui and the corruption of their goals, whatever they happen to be....
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Jan 24, 2014 21:31
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Stroop There It Is posted:Isn't everyone just thrilled that I have these books on hand I have them practically memorized.  Yeah, I've been busy. That's why I haven't been in the thread as much as I probably should. Anyway, onto the Vinculum. Back in Ye Olde TymesTM, the elders were in charge of their childer. This, for the most part, hasn't changed, but back then it was considered almost mandatory to punish a wayward childe with a blood bond to keep them in line. When the Inquisition started burning across Europe, many Kindred were killed. A lot of them were fledglings, neonates, or even ancillae who were ordered, Dominated, or blood-bonded and compelled to sacrifice themselves to save their elders. As you can imagine, this made a lot of the younger vampires rather upset with their masters. So to strike back, they needed a way to free themselves from the bonds of blood to their sires. Anarch thaumaturges and/or sorcerers found a way to replace an existing blood bond. They called it the Vaulderie, a practice which the Sabbat practices to this very night. Essentially, the Vaulderie IS a blood bond, though not nearly as potent. Each member of the pack drains their blood (a single BP) into the ritual "chalice" (anything from a jeweled goblet to a fancy beer mug will do). Each, in turn, drinks the mingled blood. The resulting bond is something a pack member feels toward the rest of the pack rather than to a single vampire. This ensured their camaraderie, but the important thing is that it can BREAK an existing blood bond. Young Anarchs used their newfound freedom to tell their sires to gently caress off and left the elders to the bonfires of the church. Now, a normal blood bond comes in 3 steps. At the first drink, you think about the domitor a lot. At the second, you go out of your way to see/speak/please them. With the third drink, you are completely enthralled and obsessed with your domitor, to the point where your old life is discarded as worthless (unless your domitor thinks otherwise! In which case you'll gladly keep up appearances!). The Vaulderie's effects are much more subtle, graded on a level of 1-10. But even at the uppermost tiers you're not obsessed with a pack member. The ritual instills a profound sense of loyalty to each other. You don't want to do anything you can to make them happy, but you will ensure they survive and thrive among the pack and the Sect at large.
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Jan 25, 2014 05:29
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At the ground level, the Sabbat are basically amoral tribalistic communist insurgents. 
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Jan 25, 2014 06:06
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Vicissitude posted:I have them practically memorized. If you get completely obsessed with your master, why did they try to break the blood bond in the first place? Or do/did the elders really not care beyond the first stage?
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Jan 25, 2014 11:57
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double nine posted:If you get completely obsessed with your master, why did they try to break the blood bond in the first place? Or do/did the elders really not care beyond the first stage? I suppose the non-Bonded vampires could trick (or Dominate) the Bonded ones into Vaulderie.
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Jan 25, 2014 12:21
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Possibly because not all of them were subjected to a Blood Bond. Vicissitude mentioned it was standard and nigh-mandatory punishment for wayward childe, so it might not have been done to the obedient ones. If a faux pas is likely to see you subjected to it, and the Elders establish a habit of using anyone they can get their hands on as utterly expendable, even the most well-behaved childe might start to see the logic in preventing them from blood bonding them. They might also want to break the bond on someone else, or redirect it, without causing a full-on blood bond for whatever reason.
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Jan 25, 2014 12:27
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double nine posted:If you get completely obsessed with your master, why did they try to break the blood bond in the first place? Or do/did the elders really not care beyond the first stage? Most elders only gave the first dose of the bond to their childer. They wanted catspaws, not sycophants who did nothing but fawn over their sires.
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Jan 25, 2014 17:23
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Stage 2 and 3 of the Blood Bond are punishments/precautions to be used when necessary, not willy nilly, because of what Vicissitude said. After a certain point, the blood bond limits the usefulness of the Childe/Thrall.
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Jan 25, 2014 17:50
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Captain Oblivious posted:Stage 2 and 3 of the Blood Bond are punishments/precautions to be used when necessary, not willy nilly, because of what Vicissitude said. After a certain point, the blood bond limits the usefulness of the Childe/Thrall. Yeah, in that case it's matter of loyalty winning out over competence. The most capable thrall in the world could still lock up and second guess their actions in regards to how their domitor would or wouldn't like what they do to achieve his/her goal. A smart and/or charismatic enemy may not shake the thrall's loyalty, but they can use it as leverage if they know about the bond. "Oh, it's a shame that nobody will be there to protect your master when my men storm his haven and drag him out into the sun." At low levels of the bond, that would cause a second thought or two. But a thrall completely bound would rush off to protect their domitor from the threat, real or imagined. Just one way in which to use the bond as a weapon. There's countless more. Hell, the Giovanni use it as part of Family politics.
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Jan 28, 2014 01:21
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I pulled out Castlevania: Portrait of Ruin for a few hours today and it got me thinking about this thread. Are there any canonical instances of regular-rear end people killing powerful vampires?
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Feb 2, 2014 03:58
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Tyrone Biggums posted:I pulled out Castlevania: Portrait of Ruin for a few hours today and it got me thinking about this thread. Are there any canonical instances of regular-rear end people killing powerful vampires? Loads. Almost all of them took place during the Inquisition, which is why the Masquerade is taken so seriously. Those cases were pretty much "the Elder got mobbed by an unspeakable poo poo load of humans and ran out of blood points" though.
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Feb 2, 2014 05:31
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That said you gently caress with someone with strong enough True Faith and you might just find yourself a pile of dust and ash blowing in the wind.
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Feb 2, 2014 05:36
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Yeah, the Inquisition was largely just regular people flocking to the Church. Very few mortals have True Faith at any level, let alone enough to cow a vampire into submission. Granted, it was more common in the Dark Ages than nowadays, but still a very, very rare state of grace. You get enough people mobbing a lair with torches and stakes, you'll have yourself a vampire barbecue before the day is out.
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Feb 2, 2014 05:58
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Vicissitude posted:Yeah, the Inquisition was largely just regular people flocking to the Church. Very few mortals have True Faith at any level, let alone enough to cow a vampire into submission. Granted, it was more common in the Dark Ages than nowadays, but still a very, very rare state of grace. You get enough people mobbing a lair with torches and stakes, you'll have yourself a vampire barbecue before the day is out. Especially if its actually during the day.
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Feb 2, 2014 07:45
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Feinne posted:That said you gently caress with someone with strong enough True Faith and you might just find yourself a pile of dust and ash blowing in the wind. They can do even more than that. Vampire: The Inquisition, p. 69/70 posted:[At a True Faith rating of ten:] Heal all wound levels in a mortal. That made me pretty much go all  when I first read it.Oh, and at 10 you can also call on God to help you out with a group of SpecOps soldiers appearing out of nowhere edit: Of course, individuals with that high a Faith rating are almost impossibly rare. System Metternich fucked around with this message at 11:55 on Feb 2, 2014 |
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Feb 2, 2014 11:48
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System Metternich posted:They can do even more than that. Do they give any examples of characters with that rating or is it pretty much just Jesus?
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Feb 2, 2014 12:03
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